In this episode I speak with Serge Durrant, a former Top Gun fighter pilot turned paraglider, discussing his journey from aviation to adventure sports. We explore themes of mentorship, risk management, and the importance of community in high-stakes environments. Serge shares insights on overcoming fear, the competitive nature of flying, and the mental techniques that have helped him succeed in hang gliding, flying F-18 fighter jets, and paragliding. The conversation highlights the parallels between aviation and paragliding, emphasizing the need for grit and the value of learning from mistakes. Serge discusses the importance of training, mentorship, and the lessons learned from both successes and failures. He reflects on his growth as a pilot, the pressures of competition, and his future aspirations in the sport, emphasizing the unique joy of paragliding and the importance of maintaining a passion for flying.
In the episode we speak about Serge’s book “Fighter Pilot.” It’s a hoot and can be found here.
Serge also mentions a list of recommended reading for changing your mindset. Find them here.
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The aviation environment is incredibly competitive.
Mentorship plays a crucial role in pilot training.
Serge buried five good mates during his career.
He had a fear of the wind while paragliding.
Every flight is an opportunity to learn.
Grit is essential for success in paragliding.
Mindset shifts can significantly improve performance.
Serge won the master’s division in a recent race. Risk management is crucial in paragliding, especially in challenging conditions.
Training should include SIV (Simulation of In-Flight Situations) to build confidence.
The psychological aspect of flying can be as challenging as the physical demands.
Having a mentor can significantly enhance a pilot’s skills and confidence.
Experiencing fear is normal, but it shouldn’t be debilitating.
The thrill of paragliding comes from the unique experience of flight.
Competition can push pilots to their limits, revealing their true grit.
It’s important to have multiple goals to avoid a midlife crisis in sports.
The journey of growth in paragliding is continuous and rewarding.
Appreciating the ability to fly is essential for maintaining motivation.
Sound Bites
“I started flying at four years old.”
“I was flying jets by 21.”
“It was incredibly competitive.”
“I buried five really good mates.”
“You’ve got to have some grit.”
“Every flight’s a training flight.”
“I had a fear of the wind.”
“I was on the verge of not handling it well.”
“I woke up on day four and said, you’re an absolute pussy.”
“I got seventh outright, won the master’s division.”
“I actually considered quitting the sport.”
“I was ready to sort of say this sport’s not for me.”
“I love the hike and fly of not really knowing where I’m going.”
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background 03:08 Aviation Journey and Early Experiences 05:54 The Competitive Nature of Aviation 09:01 Mentorship and Learning in High-Stakes Environments 11:52 Paragliding: Transitioning from Aviation to Adventure 14:56 The Importance of Community and Celebrations 17:54 Risk Management and Learning from Mistakes 20:53 Overcoming Fear and Mental Barriers 23:59 The Role of Grit in Paragliding Success 27:04 Choosing the Right Mentor for Growth 30:11 Mindset Shifts and Performance Improvement 32:50 Navigating Fear and Risk Management in Paragliding 38:48 Lessons from Experience: The Importance of Training 46:11 The Psychology of Competition and Grit 56:01 The Journey of Growth: From Novice to Competitor 01:00:24 Future Aspirations: Balancing Passion and Pressure
Gavin McClurg (00:12.146)
Serge, finally. I say that to all the guests. It always takes forever for some reason to line these up, but you travel more than I do. You just come back from Australian Nationals. We were talking about that before we started recording. We will get to that. We've got a ton of ground to cover. I think the last time I saw you in your physical form, you were running down off the Seamatosa with your buddy. You guys were supporting Paul. That was almost two years ago now.
in the last X Alps and I was running up to try to get them. Of course I missed them but I got the next few people coming through there and that was a lot of fun and I know you had a huge smile on your face. That's a pretty fun race and I understand you applied this year so we'll talk about some of that and we've got a lot of ground to cover with your recent months of training with PAL. You've had a really interesting year.
But before we get to that, the first thing I had to ask you was what the hell is your real name? Because you sent me this book, it's quite a while back, wasn't it? But this is the longest opener I've ever had, by the way. Jump in here. But you sent me this book. You were a top gun pilot down in Australia. It's by Max Surge Tucker, which you can tell me about the play on words there. But it's called Fighter Pilot. It's an awesome book. For those of you listening, I'll have the link up to it in the show notes. But it's pretty hysterical.
you're living in Austria, but you're Australian, I'm assuming that's where your humor comes from. So let's start there. You've been in aviation since you were young.
Serge (01:46.126)
Yeah, great to be here Gavin after so long. I started flying I think my first flight I was four years old on my dad's back in a hang glider and that was back in the days when hang gliding was super dangerous so that was a regalo wing that he built himself. My mother divorced him very shortly thereafter and I think it might have had something to do with that initial flight on my dad's back and then I took up professional flying when I left home at 17 joined the military straight away.
I avoided the degree in the officer course and just went straight into flying. So by 21, I was flying jets. And that's when I started hang gliding as well. And I was torn between two loves, know, the love for the F-18, which, you know, it's like no other machine, particularly when you're 21 years old and you get this hundred million dollar machine to, you know, fly around in whenever you want. But I'd race home from work every day if the sea breeze was on because I lived in a particularly great part of Australia for coastal hang gliding.
and I had an apartment on top of a cliff so I could take off and land right at my own apartment and I'd fly into the night, know, until nine, ten o'clock at night in the dark with Siloom sticks in the leading edge, setting off UFO reports and then try and set the alarm and get up early in the morning to go back to work and do some fighter flying. So it was a fantastic six years on the coast there doing that.
Gavin McClurg (03:08.894)
So, I mean, the obvious question is, I always say that if I'd gotten into this sport when you did, know, late teens, well, you got into it when you were four on your dad's back, but definitely wouldn't have seen my 25th birthday. from the book, I mean, you guys are all your top guns, right? You've got unbelievable confidence, but you're young and you're dumb. I mean, you're smarter than most, but because you're flying these airplanes, but you know, that kind of rocket ship between your legs is...
is cannot be that safe. In fact, there were some, there's some really horrible tragedies in your book as well. Good friends, but how did you survive? I mean, you're doing that for a job and you're hang gliding. How did you make it?
Serge (03:52.942)
I don't know, it might have a bit to do with why I am pretty, I try to be a good Christian and I do believe in a God and things like that. That might actually have shaped my belief system, the fact that I got here and got this far. In hang gliding, never, the funny thing was I was quite crazy on the hang glider and I...
only ever bent two uprights and never damaged, didn't break a finger or anything, which is really quite remarkable. You know, at the same time I had a mate fly into high tension power lines, blew both his legs off and blow hit both his arms instantaneously. So yeah, we did a lot of, we were really pushing the boundaries. know, we, we invent, made my own car towing system, designed my own trolley. We were the first to do that. And I nearly killed my best mate on the first tow on that. So we were really at the cutting edge of
moving inland and doing it in a way where we didn't have any mountains to jump off and that was pretty fraught at the time. On the flying side, it's a very unique environment because it's regulated but not in the sense that the commercial airlines are where you have books and books and rules and regs. It's done very much through a leadership mentor model. So you've got a wingman all the time. When you're a junior, you're the wingman of someone who's very experienced.
who's watching out for you. As you step up in your experience, you'll take on a junior lead where you'll have a very experienced wingman and you're a junior lead. And then you'll work your way right up until you're what we call an ACAT, which is qualified to lead the entire Air Force to war. That categorization from EDC up to A takes you about 10 years, maybe even a little bit longer to get up to ACAT. And it's incredibly competitive and it teaches you to learn fast.
and you have to learn fast or you get left behind. In fact, you won't even get through the flying school. Each hour is $120,000 an hour. The last course I did was six months long and $25 million to train me alone. I did it with five other friends, six of us, $25 million each. So they can't afford guys who aren't progressing fast enough. So it's incredibly competitive. And I mean, if you want to talk about a a swing geek environment, you know, it was like that every single day.
Gavin McClurg (05:54.899)
Jesus.
Serge (06:08.774)
And I mean, the recent Top Gun movie, then Top Gun number two, I actually took all my paragliding friends to the cinema here in Salzburg. About 20 of us went, we had dinner, we all watched it together. It was a bloody good night. But they really got that sort of camaraderie pretty good in that it's so competitive and that competitiveness, just like you with your paraglider racing, you know, the more competitive, the better you get. It's like that on
Gavin McClurg (06:25.618)
Yeah.
Serge (06:35.854)
day and night, you we were doing 80 hour weeks. It's pretty much a typical week at work is 80 hours consistently for my whole career. And we're competitive on the ground and we're competitive in the air. And it's it's a very, some people don't like it and they, you know, naturally drop out, but the guys who, who thrive in that environment, they absolutely love it. So it's, really gets you to push the boundaries. And to come back to your question about why I didn't kill myself, I think it's because that mentoring program, some of the guys I flew with were just in
incredible human beings. And in many ways, I mean, I would say their speed of mind reflexes, all of those sort of things you'd think of as a fighter pilot, but then also just the ability to lead a young man. And I mean, I remember I got pulled into, he was my best friend and my boss, and I taught him to hang glide and he subsequently died. And that's who I dedicated the book to, JP. And I remember he pulled me into his office and I've done something dumb in the jet, know, flown low and killed a cow or something like that.
I don't remember what the situation was, but it was something that was not authorized. He called me into the office and he said, you know, anyone else I'd probably ground for that and ruin their career, but you've got some real talent and I need to learn how to channel it. So I'm taking that on board as a challenge for me, is what he said to himself. So he took me on as a problem child and he had to walk this very fine line of training someone who, when they pick up the phone and say, hey, you need to go into danger.
at the speed of sound at a hundred feet full of bombs and see if you can get back alive. We're willing to do that without asking any questions. But also during the training peacetime environment, you know, not end up as a smoking hole in the ground. know, as you said, Gavin, I buried five really good mates in my career who made some bad decisions. And those decisions, I mean, just to put it into perspective, when we're doing one particular maneuver called low-altitude training, we are
at very low altitude, we pull up, we roll inverted, we pull down at high G into the ground and then try and miss the ground. Sounds really simple, but if we are more than 1.5 seconds, we have a 1.5 second tolerance. So if we don't put the input in, we're 1.5 seconds late, we're a smoking hole. So when you're working to those sorts of tolerances with your inputs, you don't have room for people who aren't progressing fast. And that's what I mean about that mentoring program that we did.
Gavin McClurg (08:40.478)
and sound that simple.
Gavin McClurg (08:46.024)
Jeez.
Serge (09:01.696)
And probably when we get onto Pell Tuckerts, probably why I hold him in such high esteem is because he has a lot of those sort of skills naturally, is what I found in the year I did with him, in that he was pushing me and as I've said to others, the year I did with Pell was far more dangerous and far more exhausting and it was very brutal. It was the hardest year of my flying career, the year I did with Pell Tuckerts, but we achieved some amazing goals in it.
Gavin McClurg (09:25.982)
I can't wait to how
Serge (09:29.592)
but it was because he was pushing me so hard and he has a really good ability to push hard, but right to the edge of where the risk is no longer acceptable. And I've got many examples of where Pell pushed me and I didn't feel comfortable, but he ended up being right and I was wrong. I'm quite a conservative pilot naturally, particularly on the paraglider. know, a hang glider I'm more aggressive on or an aerobatic aircraft these days or whatever else I fly, I'm pretty much, you know, I'll fly them as hard as I can.
But on a paraglider, I'm much more conservative. You know, I'm checking everything twice, three times pre takeoff, you know, in flight, guys will push really deep. Maybe they haven't got a really good landing area. They feel good. They're to get a thermal and get out of that valley. I'll sort of go, I'm going to skip that one. So I consider myself relatively conservative in my decision making compared to other guys. Pal is very aggressive and, but he's also
he was very right on every occasion even on one occasion where I lost control quite badly and you know he was right I was able to get myself out of it low level on an enzo and you know his assessment of my ability was better than my own personal assessment and as a guy with I don't know how many hours how many years I've got flying now I've got about 37 years of professional flying I'm pretty good at
understanding where my limits are and things like that because I've been doing it for so long. So I found that really refreshing to find someone like Pell in the paragliding community who hasn't been through Top Gun and all the professional instructional schools and things that I went through, who is able to do that. And I've flown with Pell and many of his students, maybe 20 of his other students in gaggle flying, watched him do it with
everyone flying from A-wings to ENZOs and I've seen his ability to read a wing, you know, up to a kilometer or two away, visually determine whether that person's got that wing under control and whether that day is suitable for them and makes them really good judgment calls. So yeah, he has that innate mentor mindset and that's really how he got me through that year, just like I was when I was on jets pushing the limit. And it wasn't done because we had a whole, yes, there was rules, but...
Serge (11:44.686)
The rules can be broken and what you rely on is really good wingmen to look over their shoulder, keep their eye on you and keep you safe.
Gavin McClurg (11:52.252)
Your commander that kind of took you under his wing that, you know, and normally would have just said, you're out of here for that mistake. There's some parallels there to Maverick, the first film. I mean, I know there's Hollywood, a lot of Hollywood in the film, the Top Gun film and the second one, but how much of that can, you know, for those of us who have just seen the films, have no idea what that life and that world are really like. I do you see some characteristics in the...
and who Tom Cruise was playing in yourself.
Serge (12:25.326)
Look, Top Gun 1 came out when I was in high school and obviously it was incredibly motivating and was only, I left high school literally on the Friday and Monday during the military so I was straight in. It was a very motivating film but I don't want to get anyone misled there. There's a ton of discipline. They don't tolerate fools very well at all.
Gavin McClurg (12:28.606)
That's a stretch.
Serge (12:53.57)
The one advantage I had is I was performing and that gave me a little more leeway. Whereas I think some other guys, if they'd done some of the things I've done, probably would have been given the ass quicker.
Gavin McClurg (13:04.784)
Okay, so you were learning fast, were pushing and pushing in the right way.
Serge (13:08.802)
Look at 24 years of age, I won the fighter pilot of the year. We only have 60 in Australia and they gave me the number one. It's an award they give every year. So at 24 years of age, one of the youngest in Australia, I won that award. And so I was working really hard and getting good results. And that work wasn't just in the air. It's, know, we have a ratio of about 10 hours to one hour flying, 10 on the ground in preparation and debrief for every hour in the air. You do two flights a day. It's going to be somewhere like an 18 hour day.
We were doing three when I was at the Top Gun School when instructing there. We would stay in the cockpit, change students, refuel with one engine running, bang up for another hop, jump another student in, keep the jet running on one, like three in a row. you'd be just in the 8G missions, just absolutely shattered by the end of the day. I think on the ground is I really partied hard in my twenties, never during the week. So I never
We just had a no alcohol policy at work. But come Friday with all of that workload and being a young, you know, 21 year old guy with all that workload, it all came out pretty hard on a Friday night, like, and maybe right through to the Saturday and the Sunday as well. So it was pretty.
Gavin McClurg (14:26.302)
Well, you gotta live up to your Aussie reputation.
Serge (14:29.44)
Well, there was a lot of, there was just a really a shit ton of pressure through the week. You know, there was no, know, literally your life was on the line. You were pushing yourself to the edge of your mental, psychological and physical boundaries constantly from Monday at six in the morning through to Friday at five in the afternoon. And come Friday at five in the afternoon, there was a bit of a blowout, which it was, which I think actually was quite therapeutic in a
Gavin McClurg (14:55.55)
You've maybe heard the stories about our parties over here on the side of the pond after our comps, know, after our nationals, after the White Open and the one in Chelan and then now my other comp, the X Red Rocks. And it's really become a big part of our community. And it's been really interesting that one of the things we always talk about that makes it.
kind of so unique and also just such a blowout is you're spending a pretty intense week with these folks. And we're all racing, but we've all got egos. We all care about each other. I it's not high stakes at all like what you're talking about when you were doing defending Australia. But it's, you're risking your life. You're pressing a lot of bar. You're flying over deep terrain and you're trying to beat your friends. And then you get to all come together and have a hug and have a good party. And it's a...
It is quite therapeutic. It's really nice.
Serge (15:51.086)
I think it's really important that you said that Gavin, because a lot of my paragliding friends, you know, they said, oh, you know, why do you paraglide? You're flying all these other aircraft and I still do. And you know, the paraglider is such a lovely thing. And I don't think they fully appreciate exactly what you just said. I mean, I've been shot at in three different countries in aircraft and shot down once. I had an accident in an aircraft in Australia.
I've had all these things happen in aviation and none of them are at a level of what some of my paragliding experiences have been. So if you get yourself on the lee side of the main ridge of the Alps and you're trying to do some lee side flying, which I had a really couple of bad days with Pell there, it's just absolutely horrifying where you're just trying to keep the wing open knowing that only 50 meters below you is a rock.
Serge (16:47.606)
is a rock face and you can't really afford for that wing to even fold up. not really going to be able to recover it. So yeah, I think the last year, like I said, I'm not exaggerating when I say it was the toughest year of training, even tougher than my top gun course. I I did not find my top gun course that hard, to be honest.
Gavin McClurg (17:03.806)
That's what I mean. How has all those years of being a Top Gun pilot and the discipline, the passion, the hours, the camaraderie, all the things that go into becoming such a high level pilot in aviation, how did that bridge to how you've approached
flying racks. I imagine that would have a huge impact. We do have a lot of commercial pilots in this game, and they're always talking about the need that we have in paragliding to have more check boxes and systems and have it be more systematic.
Paragliding is incredibly loose. It depends on who you learn it from and where you learn it from. And, you know, here's your license, go off, have, you know, have fun, you know, good luck. There's a lot of good luck, you know, and, and hopefully we make cheap mistakes. You're not allowed to do that because you can't crash a hundred million dollar plane. You know, they want to, like you said, you don't want to be a fire hole in the ground. I imagine that would have been a great history to bring to your free flights.
aviation or not or as or was it a hindrance in a sense?
Serge (18:24.706)
I think.
Well, I think it was a hindrance to yeah, that's a really good point. I think it was a hindrance in terms of risk management. I think it held me back quite a long way. A lot of it held me back for a couple of years because I was applying, you know, that professional pilot commercial aviation thing to it. And it's actually not what's needed. And that took me a while to sort of unlearn that. What did help though, Gavin, was how to learn fast. So
Gavin McClurg (18:29.436)
Wow.
Serge (18:56.066)
particularly when I started training with Paul Gushelbauer in 23 and then in 24. You know, we only had two years to hit some pretty big goals and I was fast on the ground and I was slow in the air. That was my summary of hike and fly of how I was, you know, I'm still pretty fast on my legs and, but I wasn't fast at all in the air. And so that's what I was really focusing on.
and Pell put this very aggressive plan together. But in order to learn fast, you know, this, I think in the last 20 years, even since I was instructing at the school on the F18, we've really learned a lot of, know, in the neuroscience of how the human mind works and how you can optimize it. So things like grit, you know, which requires passion plus perseverance. It's gonna be really hard.
to be a good paraglider pilot if you don't have some grit. You've got to find that grit. You've got to have a good reason for why you do this sport. If it's because you just like watching people float around, that's great. And I'll go for a hike and fly with you every Sunday morning when the weather's absolutely perfect. If you want to go and win the super final, you're going to have to have some grit because you're going to have to get through some really tough blockages in the mind at different stages through your progression, whatever they might be. And I'm sure you've had them in, I know you have, I've heard your...
I've heard your podcast, Gavin, and we all have them. In order to get through those mental barriers, you've got to have, you've got to be able to dig deep. And so you've got to have that reasoned on trial for why you're doing it. And that's what I say to people. You've got to find a really good reason to have it. Once you've found that, that should give you the passion and it should give you the perseverance to get through those difficult patches. And then you've got a whole bunch of other neuroscientific things that we've now learned on how to learn.
you know we'd learn through extraction not by insertion so when you read a book you're putting in the brand that's not a memorize it you know that by getting out of the bank you got a read it and you got extracted is a whole bunch of stuff there i would say we were very good at that i would also say the last twenty years we've got even better generally is humans in understanding the human mind and there's some really good reading that i can recommend people to be listed some i've got a bit eight very good books on
Gavin McClurg (21:19.614)
Great.
Serge (21:21.614)
how you can learn fast. I think, you know, when I met pal at the start of 20 or so, was the end of 23, I was on a B wing and a year later he had me on the end zone and I was racing it. So that was really fast progression and it wasn't done through being a maverick or anything like that. Like I said, pal is, if one thing he's very conservative with is pushing his clients too fast, cause he's had clients have accents and it really, you know, no one wants that with a client.
Okay. Powell takes a lot of care of his clients. So, but I remember turning up to Brazil, November 23 and my first two liner was on a photon on a tow in Brazil with 35 kilometer an hour wind with thermals. And I've never done any of those things before. That was my first flight on a two liner. And we were straight into it. And each day was, know, a hundred, 200, 300, 400, you know, was an amazing two weeks that we had in Brazil.
and that was my first go on a two liner. So learning fast, think is probably the most important thing that I was able to bring across from the fighter community. As I said, they can't afford people who learn slow, so they teach you some very good techniques of how to progress fast. That helped me over the last couple of years move very fast through the progression on the paraglider. The other thing I think
Gavin McClurg (22:44.816)
Is there much, let me cut in real quickly. Is there much more to that than just working your ass off? Okay.
Serge (22:51.158)
a lot more. Yeah, it's actually not just about, it's not just about effort at all. It's learning smartly. often, look, here's one, here's one simple one is when you have a setback, okay, and you have something bad, maybe you have a really bad landing. Now, maybe you land in a tree and you go, well, that wasn't part of my plan for today.
Okay, now that can really spook some people and it can set you back. You call them fear injuries. I think it's a great term. One of the key areas we've learned is in the neuroscientific area is how people think about that trauma. If you think about that in a negative way, like I'm a hopeless pilot, I nearly killed myself, it might happen tomorrow. It's gonna directly relate to how you perform today. If you think...
Gavin McClurg (23:44.51)
I can't do this, that negative self-talk.
Serge (23:45.902)
Yeah, you're to get negative spiral going, yeah, the negative self-talk. Whereas if you take it as, know, firstly, you've got to do a very good root cause analysis of that issue. And it doesn't have to be anything as major as landing in a tree. Like I say to people is you should have goals. Part of that learning fast is being very good about goal setting. So even if it's just a morning sled ride in winter here, I'll actually, I have a diary, I have a paradigm writing diary.
Gavin McClurg (23:59.314)
Mmm, yeah, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (24:10.918)
Every flight's a training flight. Every flight's an opportunity to learn.
Serge (24:14.306)
And I have particular goals that I'm writing out. So my last flight was two days ago. It was cold, a little bit ferny, actually quite a bit ferny. And one of my goals was land within five meters of my designated spot. Yeah. So even if it's just a sled ride, I'm setting specific goals all the way along. And then I'm analyzing, okay, well I landed 15 short. Why? Because you didn't assess the headwind on landing. Why? What were your wind indicators? shit, I wasn't even looking for them. I was half asleep. you idiot? There was water on the lake. There was fires in Austria in winter. There was...
leaves on the, okay. So lesson learned, be more alert. How do you get more alert? Well, 10 minutes before landing, suck on some Gatorade, okay. Do some square breathing, oxygenate your brain and start looking for wind indicators. So whatever it is, great, write it down. I've got my lesson learned. So even on the most basic sled ride, which isn't like a comp ride or something like that, you can draw so much out. And why that's important is because the...
biggest failures you have can be your greatest learning lessons if you treat it that way. And then actually what you're actually seeking is those big lessons that you want to learn. Now you don't want to hurt yourself, but you do want to have like the one I was telling you about in Australia. You know, I had this demon following me around on the paraglider since I started flying it and I can't tell you how bad it was. In fact, I will tell you. I had this fear of the wind.
Gavin McClurg (25:33.828)
started flying that glider or just flying paragliders? wow, okay.
Serge (25:36.706)
paragliding, all stop, okay? So when I met with Pal, I said, Pal, I need you to teach me how to fly faster. And we sat down and had a talk about it.
Serge (25:54.094)
Um, so when I met with Pell, said, Hey Pell, you know, would you consider training me? want to learn how to fly fast. And I knew he was a, he is a particularly fast pilot when you watch him on his days. Are you still there?
Gavin McClurg (26:10.696)
Yeah, was that on your end?
Serge (26:12.275)
Yeah, that was on mine.
Gavin McClurg (26:14.302)
We're both getting phone call at the same time. I always put that in there. Make sure we put everything on silent before we start, but I forgot it.
Serge (26:18.414)
I don't know how to spell
Serge (26:23.182)
Well, that's coming. It's coming through on my WhatsApp buddy. So I don't know how to have, I could turn the WhatsApp app. So, so when I met Palace.
Gavin McClurg (26:28.862)
Just kill it.
Gavin McClurg (26:33.618)
Hey, hold on, need to, that's all gonna come out of there. So we need to link up with what you were saying with it now. Just start your last thing over.
Serge (26:41.56)
Yeah. So when I met with pal and I said, look, I want you to teach me how to fly fast. We sat down, we had a meeting, we had a couple of meetings about it and pal took it under a lot of consideration about where I was and where my goals were. And my goals were to make excels within two years, which is obviously a very big goal. And particularly when I was on a B wing, right? So some would say that's quite ridiculous to say that, but.
Gavin McClurg (27:04.712)
Just rewind a little bit further. How did you choose, because you were working with Paul, that's when we started chatting together and you did, you were his supporter in the X Alps. That was obviously because you had your eyes on maybe doing the race back then, but how did you choose pal?
Serge (27:09.336)
Yeah, so.
Serge (27:18.678)
Okay. so the point we were talking about was fear injuries and how we get over them. And I was going to talk about my fear and how Pell helped me get over it. I chose Pell because of his speed in flying. So, you know, I like to watch live a lot of the PwC races and you can learn styles. It's hard to learn them if you're not flying with them, but I'd also, I've done an XC masterclass down in Columbia with Pell.
And I could see this level, this massive level in difference, even with other good pilots around, but how he moved through the sky, was like he was in a totally different league. And so I approached him and said, look, and I think also when I was supporting Paul Gushelbauer for the XELPs, I mean, you're on the tracker 24 hours a day and I'm watching the different guys move through the ELPs. And I could see the guys who were at that really high PWC level had a distinct advantage.
the guys who were at that level. So I approached pal and he said, yep, okay. And we sort of went through where I'm at and I told him where I was at, which was very basic, including this seriously bad fear with this demon that was sitting on, you know, over the back of my shoulder, chasing me everywhere that I flew in a paraglider. So I'd had, you know, 30 years of hang gliding and I don't have any fear on a hang glider and I've still, I still hang glider and I dragged it out and throw it inside out and love it. Yeah.
Don't have any fear, even if I haven't flown it for two years, I'll jump in and turn it inside out. The paraglider was a really different kettle of fish for me. And he said, all right, we'll fix that. We'll fix your fear. We'll go for a tandem flight and we'll do some SIV at Gurlitzum.
Gavin McClurg (28:56.766)
Why?
Gavin McClurg (29:02.91)
Where was the bad guy on your shoulder coming from? Do you know? Why did you have that fear? Had you had a bad incident or was it just flying something that collapsed? Okay.
Serge (29:12.716)
No, I hadn't had a bad incident. I'd done a, I'd done an SIV with Jockey down in Turkey. And I just, you know, it's sort of, it's these horror stories that you hear from people, you know, the wing folds up, you're close to the Alps and bang you're in, you know? So this thing was haunting me, Gavin, like, and occupying my mind. So instead of flying around looking for leaf litter bugs, shimmering leaves and finding thermals,
Gavin McClurg (29:29.096)
Huh, okay, yeah.
Serge (29:41.238)
I'm just flying around scared of my own wing. So, Pell said, look, we'll fix that. I've had students like that before. We'll go and do one flight on the tandem and we'll get that knocked over. So we went to Gerlitz and we jumped on the tandem. We put it into a backfly. He said, okay, it's yours. I back flew it. We came out of it. We did a couple more. He said, okay, you're right to go now by yourself. I said, mate, no way. I think I'm more scared than ever now. This is bloody crazy. He said, all right, we'll go do another one. We did another one. We did another one. We did three runs that day. I said, and I'm more scared. I said, this is terrible.
We did three days of this. So what he said would just be one run and maybe three or four stalls. We're on three days, four runs a day, and I am, it can get worse and not better. And he said, look, you're ready to go. You're handling it well, but it wasn't about the handing. It was the mental aspect. In my mind, I was on the verge of not handling it well. And I just couldn't get over this barrier. Anyway, I woke up on day four and I said to myself, you're an absolute pussy. You need to get over it.
Gavin McClurg (30:14.334)
my God, wow.
Serge (30:41.132)
And I said that to Pell, like he had the tandem there. said, no, I'm going to go by myself today. He said, what happened? And I said, I don't know. think I've just got to grow up and, and change my mindset. So I took the sea wing up and since that day, I mean, I do SIV here over my own Lake here in Austria by myself. And I don't have any, don't have any fear of it really anymore, but the fear I had, so come back. So I'm happy to go doing SIV by myself now. And that was a great inclusion.
We just started that early on in the progression with Pell and it really got the minds and I'll tell you how good it was, Gavin. I did Thursday with, sorry, I did Wednesday, Thursday, Friday with Pell. I raced Saturday in the board air race and I got seventh out right, won the master's division. It was the best result I'd had. And all it was was the mind wasn't in panic mode. I was actually flying properly for the first time.
Gavin McClurg (31:30.878)
Can we, let's drill into that just a little bit. So you do the three or four days with, with pal on the tandem and you're doing multiple runs and it's not helping. And then you have this kind of self-talk. Listen, man, come on, get over this. What exactly was it? it, is it, cause Jeff Shapiro talks about that we've got, you know, all it is, is this irrational fear that's bouncing around between our ears. So we just got to go in there and get rid of it. Sayonara.
Serge (31:42.797)
Yeah.
Serge (31:58.818)
I think it is a rational and I say that as, you know, I was the risk manager at Emirates Airlines, okay, the biggest airline in the world and I'm pretty good at risk management. So I know all the numbers and I know all the stats and what I was fearing was totally irrational. So it was a racing mind, out of control, emotional response. It wasn't rational. And how I fixed it and I still do it sometimes now if I get it, if there's a particularly bad day is I've
I've worked a lot in war zones, and like about a dozen of them, and there's times in those moments where you have to do things which are incredibly scary, and you just have to grit your teeth and do it. And that's, I've heard you use the term ex-elps as like going to war, and when I first, do you remember saying that Gavin? When you said that first time I went in my mind, I I wonder if Gavin's actually been to war, but now that actually,
Gavin McClurg (32:50.046)
Yeah, it is.
Serge (32:57.396)
is a method that I use is like, okay, it's incredibly rough today. You're on the edge of losing control of the wing, grit your teeth and get into this now and do it. So in the same way where you might be in a conflict zone and you have to do something to live, to get through it. It's the same mentality that I use now. And yeah, a bit of breathing sometimes to calm myself down or whatever, but I haven't...
The last bad sort of moment I had like that was I think September last year, which was in the main spine of the Alps. and I were deliberately doing some lee side flying on the main spine. I was getting my ass handed to me. Okay. It seriously bad. And we landed and I said, are you serious? And he said, search that's a seven. X Alps 23 was a 11 out of 10. You just flew a seven. said, you've got to be shitting me. You know, this is, and I was,
We went up and did it the second day, same conditions, and I had the same result. And I, I, I found those two days really hard to get my mind over it. And I actually considered quitting the sport after those two days. That was September last year. Yeah. It was that rough and violent, but then, and I think a bit had to do with when we lost Timo last year, Pal and I were there with the French. We raced day one with them. jumped into their race and so we were there when the prank happened and that Maxime was there and all the guys are obviously very upset. didn't know Timo.
But the circumstances in which he had his accident is something that I have had concerns about, which is flying below my reserve height, full bar near a cliff. Okay. I don't, in fact, below 150 meters. So I use on my, on my Vario I have 150 meters set, AGL. That's what I know. I can put the thing, my wing into a back fly, clear it, get out and keep flying. So if I'm below 150,
I'm not gonna try and get the wing out. If it goes crazy, I'm gonna go for instantaneous reserve throw. And I've been using those numbers and that's one of the reasons why I'm a lot more, I think I'm a lot more conservative because I've been in races and I've lost positions where guys are, you know, I can see their shadow, they're a freaking six feet on the cliff and I've seen their leading edge tuck, you know, and then come off bar and watch the pod shadow come right underneath the pod and I'm like, oh man.
Serge (35:24.366)
Why? I'm 150 meters and I'm in 10th place. I'm quite happy to finish in 10th place in this race and not be doing that to myself, you know? And I think, you know, the risk management is one of the things that has held me back, like I said to you before. But the learning fast has certainly helped me bringing that across from fighters. And the other one I would say, Gavin, is just when you're flying things like navigation, weather, communication, like I don't have to think about those because I've been doing them for a long
Gavin McClurg (35:53.662)
That really helps.
Serge (35:54.834)
So that does free the mind up. But on the fear one, I still had this demon sitting behind me. So, okay, I've been doing some good SIV by myself on the C wing, and then I moved to the ENSO. And I've got this fear on the ENSO because of the aspect ratio that the tip's gonna go under, wrap around the A's, it's gonna be a big bag and we're gonna go into this death spiral. And I'm being conscious, I wanna get my reserve out, okay? So this is in the back of my mind. And at the Nationals in Australia, we had some really hot.
conditions there. So was 39 degrees Celsius every day. I'm sorry. I don't know what that is in your gauge. It's bloody hot. And guys had been doing those nationals. It was my first nationals. I've not flown much in Australia. But there was guys there who done it 10, 15 years saying it was the strongest conditions. You we were getting constant plus eight thermals and spikes of us up to plus 20. Multiple collapses, reserves getting thrown and things like that. And sure enough, pre-start,
Gavin McClurg (36:26.494)
That's just hot. That's just really hot. Bloody hot.
Gavin McClurg (36:44.766)
Jeez.
Serge (36:51.062)
I'm at cloud base, I'm just dominating the gaggle and I'm ready for, you know, we're just a few minutes before start and I just get a bit of a beep beep beep up to cloud base, bang, the left wing comes under, wraps around the A's and within 180 degrees of turn, I'm full down planing with max G on the wing. I took one look at the reserve handle, obviously had lots of altitude and I said, no, I'll get this thing out. So a backflip, the Enzo out, cleared the tips, flew, great start and actually had a good race.
And that was the demon that had been haunting me. And actually it ended up, you know, I was in a sub with two reserves and all of those other levels of redundancy. Didn't need to use any of them. Actually, I was able to do it just through some SIV. And that was sort of the last demon. And that doesn't mean I don't go flying and still get scared. do. But what I'm saying, it's not debilitating now. So I'm going to come back to the main lesson learned for me. If I knew what I knew now and I started this sport,
So I did my course in 2018. I put it down until COVID didn't touch the wing. In COVID I started flying, just doing basic hike and flies. Then 23 was solid training with Paul and 24 solid with Powell. So really two hours of, two years of solid training. But if I knew now, I would do what we did in the military. So we never let a guy go solo in an aeroplane in the military unless he can spin it and get it out or stall it and get it out. But in paragliding, we do it another way. You do your 40 high flights.
then you go flying and you if you want you can go thermaling do whatever you want and you can spin it and you can stall it and you don't know how to get it out so if I knew what I knew now I would do my high flights and I would immediately go into SIV until I could do it with my eyes shut and then I would start going cross-country instead of the way I did do it which was a couple of years of cross-country before I was really
feeling comfortable with the wing being out of control.
Gavin McClurg (38:48.99)
I've got several things I need to ask you, because you covered a lot of ground there, but I wanted to start with the two days you flew with Powell that were pretty freaky, that were in the lead, that he said were a seven, and the X-ops in 23. The spectators all saw a race that had unbelievably good weather, right? You and I were out there. On those days where Maxime landed, and he was kind of in tears, and he was landing backwards, and...
You know, it was peaking over 60K an hour going through the Lakes District by Bellinzona. These were not recreational paragliding days. I mean, it was incredibly windy and very sketchy. In my, I'm sure Pal talked about this with you. If I had gone flying with you guys those two days, I probably would have felt pretty similarly because you're not in the race.
You know, there's a very different place you get in your head. I'm just wondering what pal said about that because. He's got this incredibly long Acro background and so for a lot of us who have been flying XC for a long time can look at that and go. He's definitely got an advantage because he's got this incredible.
gift of recovery, you he knows what the wing is gonna do before it does it more than most and and just this ability and that that translates to all kinds of skills on the ground launching landing top landing that's given him a Huge advantage all those years training really hard acro the kind of training you've been doing last two years but for years for acros is a competitive acro pilot and all the films master hack on everything else, but I Would imagine even pal
on a 10 out of 10 day when you're just flying is different than on a 10 out of 10 day in the X-Alps. At least for me, the second that gun goes off in that race, it's pretty hard to get me scared until the, and then the next day after the race, I go out in conditions that were 70 % of what they were. I just flown the day before and I'm shit scared.
Gavin McClurg (40:59.952)
It's just interesting. Your mind goes to a place while when you're in the zone like that, you're in the zone. And it's this combination of all the factors of going to war, right? You're in it. You got to perform. You got to do it. You don't have any time to think about that shit. You don't have any time to think about, man, I'm scared. This sucks.
It does there. You can think like, wow, this sucks. I've been in a lot of situations, the XS4 I'm going, man, I'd like this to be different. But that's different than being scared. It's interesting. And I don't know, in all the times I've trained for my four campaigns, I could never get there in training ever. I could get close, but I could get current. I could get really fit. I could go flying some nasty stuff, like we hear Kriegel doing all the time.
Switch? I could never find it unless I was in the race.
Serge (41:54.88)
Yeah, so well, what I would say is like, firstly, I'm really unhealthily competitive. Let's say that. So if you take me for a training day, Gavin, I'm not going to let you beat me in one thermal or glide one foot longer than me, even if it's training. Right. So I have it. And I'm not going to say that's entirely healthy, but that's just how I'm wired. So on that particular day, I'd never experienced the wing move around as violently as it was.
Gavin McClurg (42:03.059)
Yeah.
Serge (42:23.31)
because yes, I've had them going forward and back and all those other things, but this was moving so erratically and so fast. And I felt like I was on the edge of losing the wing. Now I never lost it. I didn't even lose a tip. But again, in my psychology, I felt like I wasn't up to it. Hal was saying, hey, you've got this, you're managing it well, let's keep going. We're gonna freaking do the whole valley. And in my head, I'm like, dude, I don't think I can make it across the next crossing, right? So was such a big difference between his observation of me and my perception of
Gavin McClurg (42:48.926)
Mmm.
Serge (42:53.402)
That's why the wingman mentor concept, and I really recommend that to a lot of junior pilots, is to go for, okay, I came into the sport with lot of professional background, a lot of hand gliding and things, but you need to go flying with people who are more experienced at you. And then the people who are more experienced, you're not just there to tell them, hey, it's good for takeoff. You should be watching them in flight, watch them how they're handling the wing. Have you got them into conditions that are a bit too strong for them? In which case go land and have a beer and we can try it again tomorrow. So it's...
You should take mentoring as a really, I've got a couple of junior pilots at the moment that I'm working with and I take it with a lot of responsibility. I'm not going to say I'm good as a pal. He's brilliant at it in how we can see a wing moving over the top of someone. But I think, I think that those particular conditions on those two days we had, yeah, they were awful because of how chopped up it was. So strong thermals cut up, which means the wings really aggressive, not just strong thermals like we had in Australia, just really very messed up.
I was ready to sort of say this sport's not for me, you because I think it's, were in some very difficult conditions that day. And if the wing had gone, there was no way I was going to be able to recover it. We had some good chats about that. I'll also come back to the point you made about EXELPS, Gavin. I know three of the top guys that finished in the top 15 without mentioning names and all three of them were ready to quit the sport after EXELPS 23. They'd all made that decision.
because of the conditions in
Gavin McClurg (44:21.522)
I don't think is that, you know, in my experience, Serge, I don't think that's that uncommon. You know, were, I had campaigns in 21, the weather was atrocious. And, you know, it was an amazing experience as it always is, but there was some serious self-talk after that one.
Serge (44:40.334)
So do you think, in your experience, Gavin, is it because of the danger of the flying that people have made that decision or because of the physical exertion? I'm not going to do another exorbitant.
Gavin McClurg (44:40.779)
This is unreasonable.
Gavin McClurg (44:51.71)
Oh, zero, 100 and zero. The physical is, I've loved all of that. That's never been an issue. I mean, in 2015, there was serious pain because I didn't feed myself right. And that's a whole other story. But no, don't mean it in any way, the discomfort or the pain or that side of that. That to me has been awesome. I've loved that part of it. No, it's just the pure.
Serge (45:14.881)
Yeah. Yeah, I can do like that stuff.
Gavin McClurg (45:21.009)
absurdity of the risk. Like you're talking about that seven out of 10 flight, are days, I mean, in 2015, there were multiple days, all day like that. And Tom Dodora, or Toma got his face torn off and Toma D'Orobro broke his arm and got helicoptered out and Michael Gabbard quit the race. Michael Vichy went in the lake, throwing risasuri, one of the best comp pilots in the world. It was just ridiculous how much wind we were flying in. so yeah, no, it's that. But again,
Serge (45:43.522)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (45:50.238)
For me, during that race in 2015 was great. It was incredible. the day after, if you'd asked me to go back into St. Moritz and fly what I did down to Bellinzona, was no way. I don't think I could have done it. It's interesting. It's just where your head gets because of the race and just all the things that go into it. don't know.
Serge (46:05.262)
Mm.
Serge (46:11.918)
Yeah, so we spoke at the start of this call about grit and, you know, the ability for passion and perseverance. And, know, if you've got it, have you got the grit to race? And obviously when you're racing, you've got more grit, right? Because there's the stakes are higher. You've trained harder for it. You're super passionate. You're perseverance. I mean, you're just going to run into your feet fall off, right? If you have to, if it's a rainy day.
Gavin McClurg (46:15.57)
Yeah.
Serge (46:37.25)
So you do have that when it's training, we lose, we often can lose that. That's, I guess that's a bit about the point I was making, you know, when I got to the end of the SRS season and there was some guys who were, you know, having a bit of a sledge, having a bit of a go at me in the, in the landing field about, well, you know, if you've got a coach like pal and if you've got the right gear and if you've got the money, you know, you can win the SRS without any idea of where I'd started the year with pal.
which I was just absolutely shit scared of a flexible wing. And that's why I say it was the most difficult thing I've ever done is the flying was probably as technical, know, in terms of the feel of the wing and how you handle the wing is probably, you know, that's probably on par with flying an F-18 well, you know, that's, you've got to have skill and you've got to learn to fly it well, but the psychology doesn't come close.
You got an injection seat and an FAD, you might pull a handle and then you're just under your reserve. The paraglider and the proximity to the ground is, you know, it's next level when you're in those sort of conditions like we were just talking
Gavin McClurg (47:46.526)
Amazing. I'm curious, a couple things. When you first approached Powell, was it, hey, this is where I wanna be in a year? I mean, did you just say, this is my goal, I wanna get in the XLPS, and he created this whole program, or did you guys kind of fiddle-fart around in the beginning and he realized what he had in a client and went, okay, you'll take as much punishment as I can throw at you. This is gonna be really hard.
What was the chicken or the egg here? What happened?
Serge (48:17.774)
Yeah, no, Pell, of his great traits, he's a very honest person. In fact, he put up a post at the end of the SRS when I'd won and he spoke about the year. He sort of described it and he actually got a, some real heat from different people about that post because in that post he mentioned, you know, in one year he took me from a B wing to an Enzo. And again, there was no understanding what that entailed. I mean, that was more than 250 hours of competition flying.
Gavin McClurg (48:24.945)
side.
Serge (48:47.692)
together on the radio team team flying so
Gavin McClurg (48:51.518)
150 hours of comp flying in a year? That's amazing.
Serge (48:54.35)
Yeah, of comp flying and comp preparation flying. So we'll go here and do a week of comp prep and little, uh, some training and then we'll race and things like that. So at the start, um, in, fact, when he put that post up, Gavin, he said, Oh, you know, I thought I'd met a guy who was having a midlife crisis because of my age. And, you know, I understand that. And so he was a little bit hesitant at the start, like, you know, what's up with this 50 year old guy who's punishing himself this way.
But then he got to know me and he got to know my background and I've done a lot of competitive sports and you know, like ocean racing and sailing and triathlon, Ironman, things like this. So it's always been a part of my life since I was a teenager. And I don't see myself stopping. mean, obviously as you get older, you have to calm it down a bit and you can't be as hard on yourself. But he got to know me and
He'd already, as I said, we'd already done a one week masterclass and he actually, I'll tell you that, there's a funny story behind that. So I turned up in Columbia for the first time and I am super pumped, right? Like I'm gonna go and do this masterclass. Now this is before I've set any goals for ex-op training. I'm just going to learn how to fly cross country. So at this stage, my biggest flight I'd ever think I'd done was like a 120 down at Bassano or something like that. Don't really know what I'm doing, but.
Pell Tuckett seems to have a good background. I'll go and learn from this guy. So I get there and I'm sitting there in the pre-brief with my diary, making all the notes. And he picked up on it straight away that I was taking it, you know, I was a different, yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't drinking at night. Not that I don't have fun. mean, anyone who's been on my teams knows I have a lot of fun, but I was really sort of serious, but I'm so serious. Gavin, we get into the first gaggle, right? We launch and I'm doing the right, no one's going to beat me. And straight away Pell is, he's cloud-based, okay?
Gavin McClurg (50:28.35)
Serious.
Serge (50:46.498)
I'm scratching around at Hill, like, what's going on here? You know, clearly I can't say more. Eventually I get into the core and that's it. I'm going to beat everyone. And I keep going and I keep going and I keep going. And now I'm in cloud sack and I'm boom. And I'm straight into this big queue. And then I have a collapse and I come out in a spiral through the middle of the game. Back out through it. And that was my first day with pal on my first master class. And we got back to the debrief. He said, can you please not do that to me again? As you're instructed.
That was his, his limited exposure to me was that right. And a bit of flying that week. then I. Yeah, right. So he's like, he's like, he's a bit hesitant, like, you know, what am I doing here? And then he saw I was serious, you know, so we, went to girl, listen, I started results in hike and fly started to improve and he could see that I was putting in on the ground and in the air. then.
Gavin McClurg (51:20.811)
my God, I mean, I can't, and I'm signing up for this guy for a year of this.
Serge (51:43.31)
he put the big program together. once you've got the SIV done, we went to Brazil, we went and did big distance. We had a week at Dundapulap with ground handling. We sent the SRS as our race campaign, five weeks of racing throughout the year, and then different areas of training generally in the Alps and Brazil. And just following the weather and following the race circuit. And...
Honestly, got to November of this October of this year, we had, we had a month in Brazil. It was meant to be a month and I got to the two week mark and I was just done. mean, we'd done one year together and now I'm on the Enzo. I'm on the submarine with the Enzo pushing out by myself across Brazil, pals bombed somewhere and I'm like, I'm exhausted. So I called it, I actually had to go back to work after two weeks, which is a bit unfortunate, but
You know, was an amazing journey to be flying across Brazil myself on an Enzo in a submarine a year after we'd done that first tow in Brazil on my first two liner. So it was a really amazing year. And I think, you know, I think the big takeaways for me, Gavin, is that the fear of the wing, which I think everybody has,
And I'll come to something else you said, said, you Pell's got an amazing feel and he could see the wing before it moves. mean, that's one of the things he, like the difference between doing an SIV recovery and doing ACRO, huge difference here. So SIV recovery, I hear it, I feel, you know, the line goes light. I look up, I make an assessment, I put an input in. When we were doing it together, I mean, he's looking at the internal structure of the wing to see.
Gavin McClurg (53:15.4)
Yes.
Serge (53:29.954)
the internal structure change for when he makes his next input. even before the, there's no shooting, the wing hasn't moved. It's getting prepared to deflate. So there's a lot of, that's why it's so good actually. He's looking, he's reading the internals of the wing and seeing the wings pressure and its next move before it moves. So I think that, you know, that year to go from not even being able to fly a B wing.
to get some great results in racing, to actually take out the SRS series, which was a real surprise. I mean, actually that was a huge surprise to be honest, because the first race I did, the first SRS race I did was in Columbia at the start of the season, down in January there. And the first race, I came in nearly last because I missed a turn point by 50 meters. I came in second overall, but I'd missed a turn point by 50 meters. So didn't know how the app worked. mean, that's how
freaking hopeless I was. You know, apparently it makes a noise and goes, dee-dah, as you hit the turn point. And I'm like, I'm just following the gag all around. And then I put the speed bar down and I came in a good result. But so if I hadn't actually missed that 50 meter, I missed it by 50 meters. If I hadn't done that, I would have taken the first comp in second place overall, but I got 13th overall for that first comp. And then we just kept improving throughout the year. And I think,
And then in between the races, we were doing dedicated training. And like I said, it was over 250 hours of race training with Pell in one year, which was really heavy load.
Gavin McClurg (55:05.694)
I mean, for everybody listening, this is certainly for people who get into the sport when they're in their 20s, this is the dream, right? To go spend a year with one of most famous pilots in the world and be led around the sky and have training and training and training and feedback. mean, this isn't a one week masterclass that some people get a chance to do. So obviously, an incredible
opportunity. You've obviously got the resources to do that, which is terrific. But it's least the obvious question is why now? I mean, it's it's interesting. You you and I are pretty close in age, I believe. You know, we're not absolutely spring chickens here anymore. You know, where are you finding the energy for this and the passion for this? It's fascinating.
Serge (56:01.666)
I don't know the answer to that. That's a really good question. And I've always had it since I was a kid. And I am like still, if you get to know me well, like I'm still quite immature at times when I want to be and I can be mature at times. So I can balance my maturity with the environment. But I still am like a child with my motivation for my flying, just like I was when I had my first glider flight, my first powered flight.
my first jet trainer flight, first Hornet dual flight, my first solo, and you get those big buzzes and those big rushes. I'll be honest with you, two days ago I just did a, wasn't really, was sort of a semi sled ride, journey, windy, shitty, early spring day at my home site. But to me it was like the most remarkable thing. seriously, I, and it sort of comes back to that point you raised before Gavin about, don't think a lot of paraglider pilots truly appreciate
how incredibly amazing it is what we do. Like if you know anything about the Goldilocks zones across the universe, where water is between freezing and a hundred degrees, with the web telescope now we've looked at all of them and with AI we can scan them all and we found some planets but there's no atmosphere, etc. So basically when you hike a hill at the right time of day,
and you step off onto a bubble of warm rising air. It's the only place in the universe. And you were the only person on the planet that stepped off and got into it. And then you got transported for a couple of hundred K across the planet. And then you land. All right. It's an incredibly unique thing that we do. I'll frame it another way too. If you look over the history of mankind, right, paragliding is like this absolute
Gavin McClurg (57:32.606)
That is Goldilocks. That is Goldilocks. Yeah, it's... It's stupid.
Serge (57:48.302)
tiny, tiny piece at the end over the, you know, but go back to the Neanderthals, all right? We're out there hunting, you and I, we're, you know, out for a couple of days and we spear a deer and we're carrying it back to the tribe and we're exhausted, right? We haven't eaten for days because we'd been hunting. The tribe's hungry. We finally land this deer there and we go, you go. They say, well done boys. And the whole time we're looking up and we're watching these vultures fly backwards and forwards, over the mountains that you and I are hiking up going, my goodness, wouldn't that be fantastic?
and we loved them so much, we deified them, we turned them into gods, we started to worship them, And we always wanted to be like them. And then we had some crazy guys make some wings and they started to jump off hills. And then a couple of brothers who were bicycle mechanics in your country thought they could get some dead seagulls from the beach and make some wind tunnels. And then they did it, right? But the whole time, none of us, like over the bulk of history,
No one was thinking about standing in the rear bar of the A380 sipping on champagne, traveling at Mach 0.9 around the planet. That's not what we were doing. We were looking up at the vultures going, I just want to be able to do what they can do. And paragliding is that. And we are so lucky to be alive now. mean, Wilbur and Orville and every other great aviator that has lived before us would die to be able to walk up a hill with a 10 meter wing on their back.
and jump off and go for a flight. They would give their lives for it, right? And we happen to be alive at a time when the technology.
Gavin McClurg (59:16.354)
for sure. Many many many many many people did, know, just getting us to this point.
Serge (59:22.406)
Yeah, yeah. We happen to be alive where we can do that. And I don't lose sight of that on any day that I go flying. It's something that I really treasure and that's where I get my motivation from. It's just a deep appreciation for how unique this time is in the history of man where we can be like a bird.
Gavin McClurg (59:44.776)
very well said. This period you had this last year, when you had the two flights where you went, not sure this is for me, talk about pressure. mean, in one way, you've given yourself this incredible gift of a year, but it's also, there's some pressure there. You were signing up, you're trying to make the X-outs, you're trying to get in the...
biggest thing there is in this sport, in my opinion, in any sport. I mean, it is the sweetest race there is. Were there times this year, maybe in Brazil, you're exhausted where you're going, am I chasing the right thing? Is there been any doubt?
Serge (01:00:24.046)
Yeah, Brazil was when the first time I questioned it after two years of almost full-time training. I mean, I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I've got businesses in four different countries around the planet that I try to run and then I fly. Yeah, so I'm busy.
I was pushing and the other thing I think not to lose sight of is I was pushing on the ground as well. So, you know, I was doing ultra marathons and stuff. So I'm doing all the physical training on top of all the flight training with pals. So, but I've got a really good level of like, I bring it back to that grit. And there's an excellent book by Angela Duckworth that I would recommend to anyone that's listening that wants to know how to develop their grit. It's a really great study that she did on, on
how to develop it in your children and then had it all the way through to yourself. And I have a very high level, like I don't jump into anything unless I really wanna do it. And then when I really wanna do it, I'm almost ridiculous about how I approach it. So that grit did me very well throughout the couple of years training with Paul and pal. And I'd say right up to the end there in Brazil where that was, mean, Brazil is exhausting in a different way.
Just hold there, sorry.
Serge (01:01:53.87)
Okay, so Brazil is exhausting in a different way because if you're doing a long flight, the roads are terrible, and you've got to land and get back, and you're driving through the night, and you're getting back at two, three in the morning, a couple hours sleep, getting up again, six o'clock in the morning, you're setting up, seven, you know, we launched every day before seven and got away this year, which was phenomenal. That was our goal was we did a big statistical analysis of every flight over 500 on X contest.
And in that statistical analysis, we knew the start window we needed to achieve, we needed the end window, we needed the average. So we were pushing that every day. And that was a really good achievement this year, is we're always first off, know, everyone's standing around, is it working, is it working? We're always bang, bang, off and go. So we had some really good early starts this year. But that can be very exhausting backing that up day after day and keeping...
keeping your mind fresh enough where you're responsive enough on the wing if something is to go wrong. The thermals in Brazil, from my experience, I've done four weeks of flying down there at different times of the year. They're soft thermals, they're tropical soft thermals. But this year we noticed it was chopped. It was some rough days there. hadn't, and that was the wind was coming in and chopping them. And so that was a little bit, we were...
It wasn't as easy as the previous trips we had done. But I think that was the first time I started to feel exhausted. By that stage, I'd done over two years of nearly, you know, like 40 hour weeks of training, I'd say, on top of job. That's why I great.
Gavin McClurg (01:03:33.118)
That's phenomenal, man. That's so, and what's the result of that? I mean, where did you, where did you, I mean, are you fired back up? Are you gonna keep chasing it like that? Where do you go from here?
Serge (01:03:40.44)
Where am I at now?
Serge (01:03:48.12)
Well, I just got back from the two weeks of racing the Enzo down in Australia and I, man, I'm in love with this new wing. Like, I mean, talk about a step change. That thing's freaking phenomenal. so yeah, it's sort of rekindled my, I mean, I took a good break. took a month off after Brazil and I didn't fly for a month. just had to really.
let the brain recover. I'd been pushing, like you said, you do you ever get tired? I'd say it was probably chronic, but I was doing a really good job of managing it. And I've had a lot of experience doing that, but I gave it a good month off and then I started getting back into it, set the schedule for this year. So this year looks like I got a PWC wildcard to Spain, which I'm really excited about. That'll be my next race. That'll be on the end zone. I've got...
the board air races. So I'll race all three of those in Austria, the three hike and flyers. I'll head across to Brazil for the Trans Cup of Java. I got fourth there in 23 and I wasn't racing well. Like I said, I hadn't done the Peltuck, that's crazy year. So I'm looking forward to going back there. I love Brazil, love the people and that's a really cool race, that one. Great community down there. Best hike and flight community I think in the world, the Brazilians.
mad for it. I love them.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:09.118)
What was the no from the X-Alps? How did that come, how did that sit with you? And what did that do to your future plans?
Serge (01:05:16.238)
I had a backup. this is a really, actually this is good point. In that book, you've, when you get to the last chapter, it talks about midlife crisis is in there. And so the name is not quite appropriate for midlife crisis. We use it because typically in the Western male mind around 50 years of age, midlife is when the societal pressures to deliver have been achieved. So the kids are through school.
the house has hopefully paid off, you've done your job. And in the subconscious, the human mind, it's the equivalent of summiting Everest. And you've been looking at that peak for your whole life since you started the workforce going, you know, I've got to do this, I've got to do this. It's in the subconscious. Then you get to the summit. And instead of this celebratory, man, amazing, I made it. You actually look down and the subconscious for the first time in the male mind, this is why it's predominantly male, you see your own mortality. So,
When you're 21, right, we both were, you're doing the craziest things. All right, I think you were in the snow sports, I was in the fighter flying and you just, you're bulletproof, you can't die. You just cannot, you cannot come up with anything to kill yourself. I mean, you just get next level, next level, next level. And that's this switch that's just not there in young men's And it's actually not there until the midlife when you have this subconscious perception that you've done your job.
And now your mortality is seen and observed by the subconscious for the first time and it lashes out and it goes, no, I can't die. I have to stay young. So it goes and dies, it's hair, it trades the wife in for a younger model, gets a sports car and that's the typical midlife crisis. But the root cause of it is not the age, it's the achievement of the summit. And for me, I hit that when I did my Top Gun course and I was 27. And that's what I'd been wanting to do. And I had a massive crash off the other side of that. And that's how I learnt these lessons.
Leighton Hewitt was an Australian tennis player. won the world championship at 21, had a massive crash and never came back from it. So I have thought for high performance individuals, I, and I used to do a lot of coaching in this area. I don't do that anymore, but I say to them, it's really important that you don't have one summit. I actually call it endless summits now. So you've got to have the summit you're aiming for now, which is Everett. And then you've got to have another one that you've got in reserve for either achievement of this one or it's taken away from you. So for
Serge (01:07:43.726)
For the Excels one, my plans were to go into PWC. was my backup plan, which is what I'm going to do. But I'm not entirely sure that I aren't gonna keep training for the Excels. I really love hike and fly. It's my favorite form of flying. I love the physicality. I love the pain. I love the pain on the ground, to be honest. It's sort of not quite healthy.
And I enjoy the, you know, the flying and the sort of the adventure of not knowing where you're to be as distinct to an XC where I know the start and I know the goal. But I love the hike and fly of not really knowing where I'm going to start today, where I'm going to finish. It's much more of an adventure by the true definition. So I'll keep racing that Gavin, and I will see how I'm going to dip my hand into PWC. know, obviously that's next level with some of the best pilots in the world. So that might be very humbling for me. But that also, like we spoke before about learning, that also might be open up an entire new area for me to focus on to see, you know, wow, I'm way down here. How do get to here? Okay.
Gavin McClurg (00:01.614)
Okay, Miles, so we, at the end of the last one, when we lost Serge, when he was telling a story about kind of, you know, what's next and getting into the PWC and stuff, so I think it's the cleanest for us to just redo that section. So I believe the question was along the lines of, you didn't get in the X-Ops, what was that like? And so I'll just start from there. So Serge, I know that you're, one of your big goals
with working with pal and also working with Paul. You know, the last time I saw you supporting him was getting in this race that's starting here in a couple of months, the 2025 Red Bull X-Alps. That didn't happen. Was that a big hit mentally? Piss you off? And how did you handle it?
Serge (00:53.429)
No, look, I think we were pretty well prepared for that. I mean, we knew it set a big goal. And I also had prepared a good backup. And that was something I learned back in the military. So I think it's probably a good little discussion there on the midlife crisis and how that's probably inappropriately coined. So the midlife crisis is typically, know, the Western male is raised to provide for the family.
He gets to about the middle of his life and that has been achieved. His children are leaving home, they've been paid for, the house has been paid for. And at that time in his subconscious, the analogy there is that he has finally got to his summit. So if you imagine you've been hauling your ass up a month of acclimatization to get to the top of Everest, you get to the top magnificent view, but at the subconscious level of the male mind, it looks down in every direction.
And at the end of that descent, sees its own mortality for the first time. And so the young man who's fearless, reckless, can never hurt himself, you know, can do every dangerous sport. The subconscious realizes it's coming to an end and now it reels back and can rebel. And in that rebellion, it takes many forms, but I think in the most sort of cliched version of the midlife crisis is a guy who trades in for a younger model wife, dyes the hair.
starts dressing crazies, night clubbing at 50, et cetera, et cetera. Now, I said to you it's inappropriately named and that's because it's not really a hedge to an age in life, it's hedged to an accomplishment in life. And depending on how your life transpires, that can be early or later than midlife. So for me, it was around 27. I had the Top Gun sitting there as my summit. It was my Mount Everest since I was a teenager, worked my ring bit off, got there, got out the other side and nothing could.
compete with it. So I had a big fall from there. So that was quite hard to pick myself up again. And I learned a really important lesson and that lesson has been learned by many high performers. Another one that comes to mind is Leighton Hewitt, was Australia's tennis champion. He was 21 when he won the world championship and never recovered. He'd had that thing on his mind since he was a little tucker. He got there, fantastic. And there was nothing beyond that. So I learned a really good lesson there quite early on at 27.
Serge (03:18.303)
when I have big goals and I've always got something going, whether it's my business or my sports or investments and things like that, whatever it is I'm working on, I always make sure I've got a summit and I'm 100 % focused on achieving that summit, but I never allow it to be the only summit. So I actually call it endless summits. So sort of bouncing from goal to goal through life, and sometimes you fall short of them. So it definitely, EXOX was falling short.
However, it wasn't entirely unexpected. It was almost a ridiculous goal that Pell and I set and I was extremely proud of what we achieved and with Paul in those couple of years. So the backup plan for me is PWC. I'm going to give myself a go at that and I'm really stoked about that actually because I'm loving the end zone and being at that level, you know, it is next level. I have no real expectations going into PWC. I'm probably going to get an absolute spanking.
But in a way I'm really looking for that because I'm looking for that, you what's that next huge challenge that I can really sink my teeth into. So I'm going to see how they go, see what the vibe is like in the competition. I've heard mixed impressions of what that circuit is like. I found the SRS tremendous in terms of camaraderie and support and things like that. So I will say it's going to have a pretty big shoes for the PWC to step into in terms of that.
But the competition is next level and I also understand the psychology is different at that level and I've raced at that level in other sports. So, I'm not delusional there, but I'm really looking forward to that. And I'm not turning my back on hike and fly. I'm still really fit. still, December I got a thousand meters a day up the mountain for a month and I can still do pretty well physically. So while I've still got that physical ability, particularly at my age, I don't want to lose that. And...
You know, my flying has got to a much better level. I'm really looking forward to the 2025 Hike and Fly season as well. think I've got two races in France, three in Austria, and Trans Capitaba in Brazil are on the menu for this year.
Gavin McClurg (05:29.742)
People often ask me, know, Gavin, how do you do all this cool stuff and maintain any other semblance of life? Now I have to ask it with you. You said, you know, earlier on in the show, you're married, you've got four different businesses, you've got a daughter, you're a dad. Are they just screaming at you to come home more or how are you pulling all this off? Because you're spending a lot of time away.
Serge (05:54.931)
Yeah, I think that's a really important question. I started, we started this podcast with me talking about grit and finding what it is that gives you meaning and purpose and drive. And so I think my girls, they're 17 and 19, my daughters, and my wife have a very clear understanding and I've made it clear to them and they know me well enough by now of what makes me tick.
So they saw me sitting on the couch during COVID, locked in my house, locked out of my country for two years, ready to...
Gavin McClurg (06:29.076)
and they're like, okay, go get out of here.
Serge (06:31.773)
Yeah, so I got a one-way flight to France and I did what, you know, is normally a two to four year program to do the mini transit. I knocked that off in 11 months and raced the mini transit. So that was, you know, it was a bit of a record set over there at the time too. And, and they know that I need that. And when I returned from these things, whether it's big goals of work or sport, I come back with a renewed energy about me that makes me a better husband, know, makes me a better dad and things like that. So.
It's bit of a trade off. I think they would prefer to see me 50 % of the time, absolutely thriving and pumping and pushing the family in great directions than to have me around for 100 % of the time and somewhat miserable and bored and things like that. So they understand it's an investment in their collective time. My daughter's coming home tomorrow off her own volition. She's just really homesickness as a dad. And I've taken the weekend off just to buy cups on, but I'm not going because we're going to have a...
a great weekend together. we have a good agreement and I think it's a really important point that I talk to lot of my younger mates about is I think the biggest decision we make in life, it's not the career you choose, it's the partner that you choose. And I have an amazing wife who, for example, loves hike and fly more than I do because she's my supporter. She takes her dog, she drives the van and just, she can't get enough of it driving around Europe and supporting me.
I think having a partner like that is, it's not just supporting, it's actually motivating. She's totally invested in my outcomes. She follows me on the track wherever I am. She's my greatest supporter as I am to her. She's into competitive sport herself. She's putting herself through another education program, et cetera, at the moment. it's, we're pretty, we're very mutually supportive in each other's endeavors and goals. And I make that point really strongly to my younger friends who are in the dating game and things like that is,
Find someone that makes you the best version of yourself and settle for no one less.
Gavin McClurg (08:34.966)
I was back in my sailing days, so this must have been, I was living in Fremantle in Australia, just south of Perth with this guy and my girlfriend, and it was, we were really broke. It was a hard section of that hold.
going around the world for the first time. And every time when I go into the bathroom and take a leak, there was that sign up above the toilet that said, and this is a little dated, it would say it differently, a little bit different. that it was top 10 things for a joyful life, happy life, they have these lists. And the number one one was marry the right person. This one decision alone will determine 90 % of your happiness or misery.
I think that's pretty accurate. It matters a lot. That's a big one.
Serge (09:23.989)
It's ups. Look, I had a pretty rough road in my 20s to get to where I've got to. So had some difficult times on the relationship side. But I came from a family, I didn't have the best model of what relationships look like. So there was some pretty good trial and errors and things going on in my 20s. And I'm very thankful what I have with my life and what was created. that's...
That's very much a part of what allows me to dedicate myself to my work, my sports, whatever endeavors I've got is a partner who's fully invested in those outcomes. So rather than, you I've got other friends who are like, oh, they're, you know, they're gritting their teeth. Mrs. are pissed off with them because they're away from home and yada, yada, yada. And I feel terribly sorry for them. I've got a Mrs. is saying, hey, hun, you get over that, you know, you got over that psychological fear, your SIV is going well, just get your head into it. You can do it, you know, and she's really in tune.
how I'm going, very invested and it really is the best decision you can make is find someone who makes you better than you can be alone.
Gavin McClurg (10:20.878)
Cool.
Gavin McClurg (10:28.206)
Serge, we're up against our time limit a little bit, you are a listener of the show. You've heard me ask this question many times with others, but with you, I'm really interested in asking this question, because you have done so much with your life. But if you could rewind the clock to your 50-hour self, and I think this should not be paragliding. This should be aviation. So back in your teens somewhere.
If you got to just magically take yourself from right now at your age in Austria and go back and talk to that little wing nut, what would you tell them?
Gavin McClurg (11:08.012)
knowing what you know now.
Serge (11:10.136)
milk every bit out of it that you can. think, you know, I was racing through life pretty fast as we discussed Gavin and I had an amazing career in uniform and out of uniform. And a lot of it flashed by where, you know, I was taking it for granted. You know, I was getting up in the morning as a 21 year old flying three hops a day in an amazing piece of machinery and longing for the day to end so I could jump off the cliff in the hang glider. And so...
I probably would have told myself to just sort of slow down a bit and smell the roses and enjoy it along the way. It would be the best advice. It would give me younger self.
Gavin McClurg (11:49.652)
And time doesn't slow down as we age, does it? It sure does.
Serge (11:53.705)
That accelerates rapidly. Rapidly accelerates.
Gavin McClurg (11:58.958)
Serge, you're a treat, man. I appreciate it. We've needed to do this for a long time. I think the stars align in a really good way. We hit you at a good time. This was a lovely chat and can't wait to see what you do with the next few years. And I'm excited to go racing with you in Spain, man. I'll be seeing you soon. Your first World Cup in my, I've done a whole lot of these. So maybe I can share some knowledge with you.
Serge (12:22.765)
It will be good to catch up, mate. And I've got to thank you for what you've done. know, when I started into paragliding, I made an effort of listening to every podcast, every single podcast that had anything to do with paragliding. And one of those, I believed, had a lot to do with saving my life. got myself into a, very early on in my paragliding career, got myself into a very strong valley wind and a very narrow pass.
where I was doing 85 kilometres an hour downwind on a B wing at about 50 metres off the ground. Turned into wing, my speed bar broke. So I'm going backwards at around 50 kilometres an hour. And I looked backwards because I could see I was going to impact a long way down range and there was a set of high tension power lines. And I just listened to one of your podcasts with, I think it was with Cedar.
Gavin McClurg (12:53.422)
Mm.
Gavin McClurg (13:00.206)
Oof.
Gavin McClurg (13:12.728)
With Cedar. it's high tension power lines, it was with Cedar. He was pretty new.
Serge (13:15.795)
Yeah, I just, yeah, I just listened to that one. And I told you I had a good mate in Australia who his arms and legs off him. So I made a really good decision there, which was still kilometers upwind was to run downwind. And I only just cleared the pole and then spin it essentially over the top because there was another set, you know, another 10 kilometers down valley. And that really had a lot to do with getting me out of a really difficult situation, which was likely to end up in those lines. So, you know, what you what you do for everyone and
and including myself, I have really benefited from CloudAce. So thanks for what you do,
Gavin McClurg (13:53.294)
I appreciate it. That's a good story. You had told me that one. I could remember that one.
Serge (13:59.283)
I think I sent you a subscription after that one because I felt like that was well and truly worth a subscription, that piece of information.
Gavin McClurg (14:03.734)
You did. You did.
Gavin McClurg (14:11.758)
Well, I appreciate it and thanks for your support of course, but more importantly thanks for sharing these great stories and your incredible dedication. think many people, including myself, are going to find it really inspiring. Thanks man, good talking to you. Cheers.
