Paris Williams was described to me by our mutual friend Lisa Verzella as a Renaissance man. That will all become clear as you listen to this show. Paris has been flying hang gliders his entire life, and we’re the same age— so a long time. In this episode we explore the multifaceted nature of flying and its psychological implications. Paris has a PHD in psychology and is a practicing psychologist, and he shares his own journey from a challenging childhood and coming from a pretty dark place to finding solace in the skies. We discuss the evolution of hang gliding, the thrill of aerobatics, and the importance of mental health in the sport. We get into mindfulness practices as a means to enhance performance and maintain presence during flights and the balance between competition and enjoyment and the need to reconnect with the joy of flying. We explore the intricate balance between striving for success and enjoying the journey in flying, and how letting go of the desire for achievement often leads to much better performance. Paris shares his own experience of transitioning from intense competition to a more relaxed approach, focusing instead on fun and personal growth- and then realizing his results got a lot better. We talk about age and how it relates to risk and mortality. We delve into the intricacies and emotional risks of pursuing records and the personal growth that comes from following one’s passion. We discuss the impact of personal struggles on professional life, particularly in the context of mental health and grief. Paris shares insights on navigating grief and trauma, emphasizing the importance of allowing emotions to flow and the natural process of healing. There’s a ton to unpack here, enjoy!
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Paris has a PhD in psychology and works as a psychologist. He runs trauma trainings and eco-therapy sessions. Flying can be a way to escape from mental health struggles. Mindfulness can enhance performance in flying. The thrill of aerobatics can lead to risky behavior. Competition can detract from the joy of flying. Presence is key to performing well in competitions. Expectations can lead to poor performance. Connecting with nature is healing for mental health. The sport should be about passion, not just achievement. The harder I strive, the worse I do. Companionship in flying enhances the experience. Mental health is crucial in competitive sports. Transitioning from competition to enjoyment is vital. Fun should come before achievement in flying. Returning to flying can provide new perspectives. Age brings awareness of mortality and risk. The thrill of flying can be found in relaxation. Exploring new flying techniques can be rewarding. Connecting with nature through flying is essential. The Brazilian paragliding record has been challenged by Texas. Towing techniques have made paragliding records more accessible. Flying with others increases speed and safety in paragliding. Competition flying has a different psychological intensity compared to record attempts. Following your passion is crucial for personal fulfillment. Grief can be seen as a form of trauma that needs processing. Allowing emotions to surface is essential for healing. What you resist persists; facing emotions is necessary for recovery. Breathing techniques can help in processing grief and trauma. Facilitating the natural grief process is key to emotional health.
Sound Bites
“I had a pretty rough childhood.” “We are a weird bunch.” “I was pretty depressed in my 20s.” “Mindfulness training is about presence.” “We all struggle with this.” “Can’t get no satisfaction.” “It really does become a weird pursuit.” “Letting that go, I think that intense.” “I love the idea of having a tail.” “It’s really tricky start though.” “You might be comparing to old records.” “Keep following your bliss.” “Grief you can see as a kind of trauma.” “What you resist persists.” “Thank you for the therapy session.”
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Renaissance Man 02:55 The Psychology of Flying 05:57 The Evolution of Hang Gliding 08:58 Aerobatics and the Thrill of Flight 11:51 Mental Health and Flying 15:00 Mindfulness and Performance 18:09 The Flow State in Competition 20:47 The Ego and the Sport 24:09 Finding Joy in Flying 26:57 The Pursuit of Satisfaction 28:37 The Balance of Striving and Enjoyment 31:14 Transitioning from Competition to Companionship 33:52 Navigating Personal Challenges and Mental Health 36:34 Returning to Flying After a Break 39:43 The Shift in Perspective with Age 48:21 Exploring New Avenues in Flying 55:16 Exploring Paragliding Records and Techniques 58:23 The Psychological Aspects of Flying 01:00:34 Advice to My Younger Self 01:03:22 The Impact of Personal Struggles on Professional Life 01:06:49 Navigating Grief and Trauma 01:17:00 Facilitating the Natural Grief Process
Gavin McClurg (00:08.378)
Paris, as usual, this has taken a long time to coordinate. I say that with all of my guests, but thanks for hanging with me. Thanks for having your patience and thanks for coming on the show. It's good to see you here.
Paris (00:21.564)
Thanks for having me, Kevin.
Gavin McClurg (00:23.754)
So Lisa Verzella, a good friend of both of ours, she often does the weather for our comps that I run down in Utah on your neck of the woods. She called you the Renaissance man. What does that mean?
Paris (00:37.582)
Yeah, well, I've had lots and lots of different interests and passions in my life. I assume that's what she's talking about. So both of the recreational realms and also in the academic realms and yeah, lots of lots of different areas.
Gavin McClurg (00:54.352)
Okay. You're a teacher in academics or what do you do in academics?
Paris (00:56.462)
So I have a PhD in psychology and I'm actually working as a psychologist. But most of my work is teaching. So I do see some clients.
Gavin McClurg (01:09.625)
Okay.
Paris (01:12.966)
and I work with some families and couples and individuals, but most of the work I do is supervising other health professionals and running trauma trainings. So I run trainings. Well, I actually have two different kinds of trainings. One is trauma. So teaching people how to work with trauma, post traumatic stress disorder, that kind of thing, other professionals. And then eco-therapy, which is about using the outdoors therapeutically. So those are kind of my, that's my livelihood. And that has been my livelihood for.
I got licensed about 13, 14 years ago. So I've been kind of in this field for about 20 years.
Gavin McClurg (01:52.304)
Okay, so very general question. What's wrong with us as pilots? Why do we pursue this sport?
Paris (01:58.325)
I'm still trying to figure. Still trying to figure that one out. No. No easy answer. But I think there's some commonalities. Obviously, most of us love the outdoors, no doubt. think, I mean, speaking for myself, I know I got into, one of the things that got me into flying was I had a pretty rough childhood and
Gavin McClurg (02:07.396)
easy answer.
Paris (02:25.64)
and was very jealous of the birds. I just remember growing up as a kid and looking at the red tails and the vultures circling overhead and just longing to join them. And then I made that a reality. so I know in way, in some ways, I'm not alone. I mean, certainly, I don't know what the percentage is, but certainly some of us to get in the sport, there's a desire to leave the ground in that way. But yeah, I don't want to generalize too much.
Gavin McClurg (02:53.922)
are a weird bunch. mean, truly, you know, we were talking before we started recording, you've done a lot of competition flying, and just recently, again, but, so we'll get into that, but it's, you know, we always talk about when we're at competition that, you know, what a group of kooks. Yeah, it's a pretty wide-ranging group. A lot of engineers.
Paris (02:55.671)
Yeah, very eccentric.
Paris (03:18.35)
Yeah, a real eccentric bunch for sure. And lots of engineers. lots of diversity, no doubt. people, mean, generally I think what you find are people who just really love to celebrate life. They're willing to risk their lives to celebrate life, right? To really deeply and fully enjoy this thing we call life and soaring over the mountains and...
Gavin McClurg (03:22.316)
That's a better word.
Gavin McClurg (03:26.618)
Sure.
Paris (03:46.302)
circling up into high into the sky and you know so there's that's the commonality I would say is that just that deep love of the natural world and and the stimulation of really pushing ourselves to the limits in these ways.
Gavin McClurg (04:01.904)
How long you been doing it?
Paris (04:04.462)
I did my first flight at age 14. So I'm 52 now. So what does that make it? Yeah. Okay. So what if I do the math 38 years ago? That was just off of training hill. My mom had a boyfriend. Long story, but I wasn't raised by my mom, but I was visiting her and she had a boyfriend who had bought an old standard like from a garage sale. we went out to the, none of us knew what we were doing. I was 14 and he was, I think 25.
Gavin McClurg (04:09.653)
we're the same age.
Paris (04:33.086)
and we just did a bunch of flights off this hill. I don't even think we knew about the wind direction and all of that. Somehow I managed to fly like a dozen times before I sprayed my ankle really badly. And that was 14, but then I didn't really get into it until I was 17. And I started teaching at 18. So that was all Northern California.
Gavin McClurg (04:48.912)
And where was this?
Gavin McClurg (04:54.124)
Okay, so you were where the birth of it was. Let me do some math here real quick. 38 years.
Paris (04:55.981)
and
Gavin McClurg (05:03.48)
Yeah, mean, so it was was happening as a sport, but real new.
Paris (05:08.846)
Yeah, it's got, it just sort of been like 90 or 86. Yeah, 1986. That's right. They're just starting to get out of the really scary, dangerous hang gliders at this point. Although the one I was, you know, in that example I just gave, that was, that was a scary, dangerous hang glider, they're starting to get a lot safer at that point. They were having, you know, getting things like left lines and tip stabilizers. Basically the original hang gliders would go into left dives. You'd pull the bar in to get speed and then you would end up
and a vertical dive and you couldn't get out of it. It's called a left dive and quite a few people died that way. So at this point by the mid 80s, they had to actually solve that for the most part, that problem. So it was getting quite a bit safer.
Gavin McClurg (05:52.078)
and you started instructing pretty quick. just said in four years, when you were 18, you started instructing.
Paris (05:57.838)
Yeah, so was actually well that there's that one day at age 14 and then I didn't didn't fly at all. I started taking lessons at 17 up in Mount Shasta, Northern California. And I super passionate and got my intermediate rating and went down to Monterey area. And I started teaching so I was 18 now so started basically they have sand dunes there and so just taking people off the sand dunes and then a year later ended up in.
Kitty Hawk Kites in North Carolina doing tandems. So I ended up doing lots and lots of tandem flying for them and carried on doing teaching for lots of different schools over the years from then. Had my own school in Salt Lake. Started my very first school that I owned with colleague Tom Webster. We started in Salt Lake City in 94, I'm pretty sure, with Point of the Mountain, that's right, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (06:50.126)
At the point.
Paris (06:54.55)
Skies Edge hang gliding. We weren't very successful. We had a hard time marketing. It was before the internet. But we got a few students through anyway.
Gavin McClurg (07:06.156)
And this whole time, you in this period of life, was this life flying or were you still pretty heavily involved in academics and your career?
Paris (07:18.786)
No, this was all hang, so my whole career was flying up until it was kind of, it turned about in my early thirties that I made a kind of radical shift into something different. But up until my early thirties, I just lived, ate, breathed flying. That's pretty much, yeah, that was my whole passion and traveling, favorite traveling. But I had, there was a famous author, Richard Bach, who wrote stories about traveling around with his biplane.
Gavin McClurg (07:41.509)
Yeah.
Paris (07:44.782)
taking people for rides. And so I was really inspired. So I actually did that for a number of years. I got a van, I got my tandem hang glider, and I went, know, telluride and Aspen, and I went to Mexico and Central America, and I was just taking people hang gliding. And I did that for off and on for a number of years, kind of through my kind of early mid-20s. And just did lots of work for almost every major school in the country at one point or another. And also worked for...
couple of different manufacturers. So I worked for Altair, John Heine in Altair here in Salt Lake City in the late night, mid late nineties. You know, one of the, they had the Predator hang glider, which was at the time, it was the best going Kingpost glider at the time. And then, and then the topless gliders showed up and then the Predators couldn't quite, you know, with that Kingpost couldn't quite keep up. And then they ended up for a few reasons, but they ended up going out of business sort of early 2000.
Gavin McClurg (08:42.608)
I just had John on the show not too long ago and I was out at his, how do we call it, his shop near Elsinore and he must have 50 hang gliders in that thing. It was amazing, it was impressive. All his machine equipment and machine shop stuff, it was very cool.
Paris (08:42.904)
So yeah.
Paris (08:51.822)
Uh-huh.
Paris (08:58.669)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Paris (09:06.744)
Yeah, he's very inspiring. Definitely one of my mentors. was in those early days, the mid-early 90s, I was just all about aerobatics. I wasn't really into it, know, competitively at that point. I just love going as fast as I could and getting upside down as much as I possibly could. I was just, use the point of the mountain was great for that. So I spent lots of time at the point of the mountain and elsewhere. And John was, as I think probably many of your listeners know, very well known.
Gavin McClurg (09:27.92)
Paris (09:35.918)
aerobatic pilot and so he helped me a lot and I ended up actually in 98 ended up winning the Telluride aerobatic world championships. I dabbled in competition for that year but then I ended up getting into, it only lasted that year really. Then I got into cross-country racing after that.
Gavin McClurg (09:56.474)
So your first passion with flying was aerobatics?
Paris (10:00.366)
was aerobatic. Yeah, so I wasn't doing any real cross country. I mean, I enjoy thermaling and stuff, but yeah, was for me, was all about the thrill of, combination of the thrill of racing and getting upside down, but also the sense of mastery of just trying more more advanced maneuvers. And I even kind of developed a couple maneuvers myself, almost killed myself in that process of doing that. Yeah, so there was quite a shift for me.
I don't know, maybe it was just getting older and recognizing my mortality. I'm not sure. Something happened and I also, I did have a few close calls. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the things I enjoyed, so speaking as a psychologist, was going back, I had a pretty rough childhood. A lot of really difficult things happened and I was pretty depressed really in hindsight. was pretty depressed in my 20s. And the one time that I wasn't depressed was when I was in the sky.
Gavin McClurg (10:34.958)
those close calls maybe.
Paris (10:58.766)
But it almost became like an addiction for me. It's like I had to be on the edge of death to almost like pull myself out of that depression and feel the excitement and the rush would keep me feeling kind of high and feeling good. So I definitely got into this thing where I was pushing myself. I wanted to, what was it like to come out of a loop at 10 feet or at two feet? Just getting crazier and crazier basically.
I had a couple times that were pretty close. I never did pile in, but I certainly had a couple of pretty close calls. And I had a lot of people complaining, a lot of other pilots telling me I had to stop, I was gonna kill myself, and you're gonna jeopardize the site. And so I was a bit of a rebel that way. I actually had a dream, it was interesting. So I wasn't making friends. I had a lot of people upset with me and my behavior around the way I was flying.
And I had a dream where I was watching myself do this kind of crazy stuff, you know, at the point of the mountain. And I was terrified watching myself. I'm like, what are you doing? You're going to kill yourself. And somehow I kind of woke up. I was like, yeah, I actually, I am going to kill myself. Like I could tell, you know, by pushing myself harder, eventually I'm going to find my limit, right? And it's going to probably be death or being seriously maimed. And so that, it did shift.
something really shifted for me. And I kind of stepped out of the addiction to the adrenaline and started enjoying other aspects. I still kept doing aerobatics, but it wasn't about, it was no longer about scaring myself and trying to keep that adrenaline rush going. It became more about just mastery, like just style and mastery. And I kind of got out of having to do just really crazy stuff like I had for a few years, which is great. I don't think I would have survived much longer and I'd have decided if I carried that attitude going.
Gavin McClurg (12:34.288)
style.
Gavin McClurg (12:47.362)
a nice time to have a dream. I think there's a lot of people listening going, why didn't I get to have that dream?
Paris (12:49.632)
I know it was.
Paris (12:53.71)
Yeah, so just stepping outside of myself and seeing myself and just seeing the madness of what I was actually doing was, yeah. So that was important and that was a shift. And then it ultimately led me to focusing more on the kind of mastery of mastering the spins and rollovers and climbovers and wingovers and loops, all the different maneuvers we do in the hang glider. And then that, yeah, that just felt a lot more wholesome.
in that shift.
Gavin McClurg (13:24.27)
I don't have any knowledge or background of psychology other than what I took in a community school at some point. I was ski racing, so school was quite unorthodox for me. So anyway, that's all I have as a background, but this isn't a show about mental health, but it does seem like mental health is a...
is a subject that comes up quite a bit in this sport. And we use the analogies of when you're high, you're high, when you're low, you're low all the time. But we certainly see a lot of people in the sport struggling with mental health and depression and anxiety, these kind of things. You mentioned it. How did you come out of the hard, difficult childhood and move on?
Paris (14:03.074)
Yep.
Gavin McClurg (14:22.704)
or were you able to move on from the escapism of the sport to better mental health?
Paris (14:31.854)
Yeah, it was interesting. was kind of a double-edged sword, the sport. On one hand, I totally attribute the sport to pulling me out of like a really dark hole that I was in in many ways. Like it really gave me, I think if I didn't get into hang gliding, I would have got into drug addiction, most likely. I was kind of heading a little bit down that path, drinking too much and dabbling in some other substances a bit too much. And flying gave me a way to have...
some light, some brightness, some joy without having to poison myself, know, drugs, alcohol. So that was on one hand, that was, I think, really, really great. I really appreciate that. And it also gave me a way to really connect with the natural world, you know, just generally having that getting outside and connecting with my own body and that kind of sense of, you know, mind over matter, you know, that mastery, that self-discipline that goes with that. So all those factors.
were huge. Like I think they really, I think probably saved my life. I mean, in many ways, I mean, I would have become an addict or, I as I might've even got, know, I was suicidal at times. And so I definitely attribute that. And I see that in my own work now, like for people who are in a really dark hole, if you can find a way to connect them to the outdoors, it finds, doesn't have to be flying, but you know, something that they're passionate about that's also outside. There's just something naturally healing about getting outside and getting under the sun and the wind and connecting with.
or fellow earthlings and connecting with your own body and mastering your own body and pushing your limits in a healthy way. All these things are just so good for mental health, I think. But ultimately it was like a stepping stone and then it was a bit, it kind of, you might say in my life, it was a bit like kicking the can down the field. Like it definitely helped a lot, but there was still stuff from my past that wasn't really properly resolved.
And I ended up getting into mindfulness meditation in my late 20s. Somebody's, you know, I was kind of bummed out. was in this state, a little bit depressed. And somebody said, why don't you try this 10 day mindfulness meditation retreat? I like, I don't know. Sitting there for 10 days, looking at your breath. I mean, I just couldn't, I didn't really get it. But I did it. And it really like all that, so much of that stuff I was holding actually came out. Like I could feel it sort of coming, coming out and actually it came, I felt so much better.
Paris (16:53.326)
And it was quite interesting. If you look at it in the context of my hang line career, I was just starting to get into kind of cross country racing. This is my late twenties. And I was, as most of us do who get into cross country racing, you're often rest, you know, you're like your own worst enemy, know, you wrestling with their own, you know, ego. Oh, I got to win. We get, you know, our own, no, I'm getting low. I'm going to bond that. I'm going to look like a real ass or, you know, we get totally caught up in all of this and it's easy to do.
And that takes us away, it takes us out of the moment, right? In order to fly really well, you wanna be super present. You wanna be able to see the birds circling and the clouds forming and the different, be able to keep track of the different wind layers and lift layers, et cetera, et cetera. And the more you're obsessed with that trophy or not bombing out, whatever, you get into all the emotional or you might even say egotistical sort of aspect of it, it takes us out of that. And so I did this retreat and it was like this.
kind of real life-changing experience on the psychological level. But then when I went back to competition, two things happened. I was more present. I just seemed to not, like I just wasn't as obsessed with all that kind of more ego stuff. I was just kind able to just enjoy the fun more. I was more present.
And so I didn't, someone's had less of the eye of the tiger. Like I didn't have to win. I could just go and enjoy myself, but just be present and do my best. And I suddenly started doing so much better. Like quickly, I actually won the US nationals like not long after that and won quite a few more over the next few years. And yeah, so that was kind of, it ended up being a personal healing on one level and on the other level, it actually really accelerated my own flying abilities.
Gavin McClurg (18:19.854)
Interesting.
Gavin McClurg (18:38.157)
Interesting.
Paris (18:39.074)
Yeah, and then I'll just say one more thing. I learned about the Chicago Bulls, I don't know if you know the story about, and how actually, yeah, and the coach brought mindfulness practice into the team, and that played a huge role in their sudden acceleration to excellence, you might say. So yeah, so becoming more present, being able to work with my own emotions more skillfully was like a huge contributor to actually flying much better.
Gavin McClurg (18:44.535)
yeah, I love that documentary.
Gavin McClurg (19:04.79)
Interesting. Would you say that you were just able to find and stay in flow state better because of the mindfulness training?
Paris (19:14.858)
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, because that's basically what mindfulness training is. It's really just about presence. every, you know, when you do something like that, you realize your mind is the natural mind is actually really quite wild. Like it doesn't like to be present. It's jumping and thinking about the past, future, here, there. It's all over the place, right? And a few moments presence and then it's off again. And when you do that training, it's like going to the gym for your mind. actually get, you definitely get better at being able to just be more present.
and more at peace with what you you're not so obsessed with worrying about doing you know like striving after winning or worrying about losing you know that stuff just becomes weaker and you can just be more present. And so yeah so there's there muscles basically you can you can cultivate those capacities with with that kind of practice and then it and then it it definitely bleeds over into you know and to flow so if you're if your aspiration is to excel and find whether it's competition or going you know maybe
going for personal bests whatever it might be, the more you can be present and tame your your wild mind and your own emotions, then certainly you're gonna do better.
Gavin McClurg (20:22.832)
How did you transition from the silent retreat, when you got that out of it, how did that manifest in your flying? Was it automatic because you had just done this and then you realized, wait, or were you literally bringing something? Were you using mantras or did you?
Paris (20:44.419)
Right.
Yeah, was kind of automatic. It was almost even a little surprising. It was like, oh, I'm actually flying a lot better than it was clear why. So part of it was automatic in that way. Again, was like, going to the gym and getting certain strengths, and then you go and you do a sport that you've been doing a while, but suddenly you find it's easier because you're actually stronger now. It was like that. was like, oh, this is actually a lot easier now because my mind is stronger in certain ways.
And also I had the skills. in the methods I did, it wasn't mantras. It was just really putting your attention on your breath or your sense whenever your mind starts to get a little bit wild, you just bring it back to like your breath or sensations in your body. And that used as a kind of an anchor to keep bringing yourself back to the present. So when you start, for example, and so I was doing that intentionally, like let's, you know, I'm flying and as you do, you're doing a race and you get low and it happens and you start thinking, shit, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bomb out here.
And then it's easy to start obsessing and worrying about that. And then that actually creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now you're so worried about that, you actually land. And instead it's like, nope, back to my breath and then back to, I just need to be present. Forget about all that. I've still got 500 feet. Look around, there's something here. What's the wind doing? Is there some little three-dimensional feature that I could look for? Maybe there's a little bird. As you get lower, the birds become more apparent.
And so the more you're able to stay present, the more you're able to notice all that stuff. And so I would do that intentionally. Like just keep using my breath as a kind of anchor whenever my mind starts to drift and get a little bit wild.
Gavin McClurg (22:23.952)
My nemesis is the last 10 % of the race. I started to get a better handle on this, but if I start thinking I'm in position, I'm gonna win this one, that's the death of me. As soon as I start thinking, know, it's time to break. I've got these guys. man, that's the end of me.
Paris (22:39.38)
Exact? That's exactly right.
Paris (22:44.354)
Yeah. Because now you're now you start you're imagining the podium you're imagining, you know, and you're not you're not present.
Gavin McClurg (22:51.77)
Exactly. I've got the score. I've got the score. I thinking about the next day. I just want more of this and I've got this one. my God. Not present.
Paris (22:58.862)
Yeah, and now you're not present. That's right. So that's right. So those are the extremes where we get lost. Either you're doing worse than you hoped for, you're getting lower, and then you start, oh no, I'm gonna blow it, I'm gonna look like a fool, I'm gonna have this terrible score, blah, Or you're doing really good, and you're like, oh, this is great, I'm gonna be the hero of the day, blah, blah, blah. Either extreme is gonna take you out of the present and gonna hurt you, right? You're gonna end up, yeah, so you're.
Gavin McClurg (23:27.298)
It seems to me it's expectation is the death of good flying. seems like, know, last year at the Monarcha, I've been going to the Monarcha for a long time and I'd gotten close and close and close and really the year before I just gave it away. Same exact, mean, I was so in position and just gave it away. So last year finally won it, you know, and just.
Paris (23:28.268)
Here at Zero.
Gavin McClurg (23:50.64)
I had the mantras, I'd gotten some help from Cody Matanke, he lives down by you, it was there at the point, and we'd done some work together and it was just, it beautiful. I didn't even need to fly the last day, I got it. So of course this year I went down, I got to defend my title. That was what was in my head. And that's just the worst. I had the worst comp. I mean, it was all awful. It was fun, it was a wonderful week as it always is in VAE, but holy cow, you know, I couldn't get out of my own way.
Paris (24:09.16)
Yeah.
Paris (24:18.328)
or racing, racing yourself to the ground, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Gavin McClurg (24:22.808)
God, just dumb. You're just constantly going, I'm smarter. know, rather than no discipline, you know, just not only am going to win, going to crush. And I didn't do either of those things.
Paris (24:33.784)
That's right. And every moment you're thinking about the future, about the when, you're not thinking about the present, right? That's right.
Gavin McClurg (24:37.589)
Exactly. Yeah.
Paris (24:43.246)
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's totally, I mean, that's, I attribute that more than anything to, you know, succeeding, just really being present.
Gavin McClurg (24:43.383)
Interesting.
Gavin McClurg (24:52.048)
Were there, as the years went by and you stacked up some nice success, it sounds like a number of US Nationals wins and world team memberships and that kind of thing, there, I'm sure there were, but were there times that it would slip? Do you have a secret sauce to coming back to that kind of performance?
Paris (25:18.016)
I've definitely had some slips, yeah. Got a lot better. But it was basically falling back into those habitual patterns of losing presence, of letting my mind get wild, getting fixated on the achievement rather than the present. And so kind of catching, so I could come out of that a lot faster. So I didn't, the early days I had a lot more, yeah, a lot more where you'd get in that death spiral.
Gavin McClurg (25:34.81)
process.
Paris (25:45.752)
you do bad and then you feel like crap and then you do worse, you know, and then you raise yourself to the ground, that whole, I think you probably know that death spiral, most competition pilots know that. Yeah, that's right, not in your head. And so, but it was, I was able to recognize getting sucked into that death spiral and how it just pulls you more and more out of the present moment, right? And you just end up all emotional, right? You're just like, longing and this fear of failing and this longing for, you know, success and.
Gavin McClurg (25:54.342)
See I'm nodding my head.
Paris (26:14.316)
and I was able to catch myself and okay, back to your breath. Just what's happening right now, that's all that matters. This moment, all I have to do is just be here, this moment, fly the sky, forget about everything else. So I got a lot better at being able to do that. Not perfect, no doubt, I've had my bad days.
Gavin McClurg (26:31.664)
We're talking about an interesting conundrum. This is a subject that comes up a lot on the show. We're humans and we've created things like X-contest and races and race to goal and these are all performance-based achievement, right? It's longer, better, bigger.
when it comes to proximity flight closer, the speed flying and wingsuits, it's not really that fun. The closest person to killing themselves is having the most fun, right? But these are not, to my mind, very sustainable ways to enjoy this sport. It was interesting, because you talked about the beginning of your career.
Paris (27:08.403)
Right, Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (27:25.602)
was just this passion for flying. And then, you had these mental health struggles, and then you go to racing, which to me is, God, if you're having trouble with mental health and that could really destroy it. God, there's nothing worse than just pulverizing yourself at comps. And we're really talking about the ego, aren't we? But it's quite interesting that...
Paris (27:47.95)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (27:52.128)
You know, nothing I'm saying is going to be a shock to anybody listening. We all struggle with this. Wouldn't it be great if the sport could just be like it is that first time? Forever. We all remember our first flight. was just remarkable and we didn't do anything.
Paris (28:12.237)
Hmm.
Gavin McClurg (28:14.8)
It really does become a, you know, you're kicking your helmet if you haven't gone more than 200K. You know what I mean? It just becomes this weird...
Paris (28:20.492)
Right. Yeah. Can't get no satisfaction. Right. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (28:25.282)
Yeah, exactly. Just, you know, our desire for more is in everything. mean, driving a car, mean, just life. It's interesting how we're geared as humans.
Paris (28:37.87)
Yeah, absolutely. And kind of looking at my own life, it was interesting how those two coincided, the reducing of that, that striving that you're describing, the striving for more and more and better. As that got less, I ironically started doing better. And so, I definitely noticed that inverse correlation between those two, like the harder...
I really got to win this, I got to defend my title. The stronger that is, guaranteed, the worse I'm gonna do, like almost guaranteed. And the more I'm like, hey, this is great, I'm with my flying mates here and we got this amazing weather and we're just crossing over this beautiful territory, the better I do. So kind of letting that go. So yeah, in a way that think that intense. But on one hand, there's the conundrum because it's the...
striving which pulls you to do it in the first place. So there is a balance, there's a balance there. But I don't, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (29:33.1)
Exactly.
Yeah, mean, right. We wouldn't even go compete if we we we had if we had this totally figured out, we just wouldn't give a shit, would we?
Paris (29:40.557)
Yeah.
Paris (29:45.07)
That's right, like, hey, I'm totally, I am like an enlightened monk here. I don't need to, I don't need to compete. I don't need any glorification. I don't, you know, I don't need to prove anything to myself or anyone else. Right. But I think like for me, the transition ended up being, um, fun, just coming back to fun, like, you know, and companionship. That's one of the things I actually really love about cross country racing is the companionship. Like whoever you're with is your best friend, even if you don't know the person, it's like, okay, well here we are. And I've got a couple of wings around me.
Well, they're my mates right now. They're my companions. Let's work together. And I love that we're all going in the same place and you're totally helping each other. And so for me, when I get into that, remembering that that's what it's all about. Getting with your friends, pushing your limits, enjoying that sense of self mastery, discipline, and pushing those limits. And then whatever the outcome is, the outcome is whatever it is. Try not to be too attached to that. I know it's easier said than done.
But if you could remember the most important thing is the fun of it. Like you say, the first time you flew, right? What is it? like we're just so, like they're talking about presence. You're just like, my God, the wind passed your face and you know, the magic of just floating across the ground and, you know, can we come back to that? And if you stay in that space, ironically, I think you'll actually perform better. it's by, by relegating your achievement to second before fun. Ironically, you often do better. Certainly the case for me.
Gavin McClurg (31:14.254)
You mentioned again before we started recording that you had this period of pretty intense, a lot of comps, sounds like. I don't know if it was intense, but you did a lot of comps, just flying in a lot of worlds flying, and then you've just come back to it after a big break. Is that right?
Paris (31:23.308)
Yay.
Paris (31:29.528)
That's right. was kind of, was, there was a kind of a flurry from about, so 98 was sort of, did the, you know, the aerobatic comps. done any cross country yet, but then it was after that, I kind of, a couple of things happened. I sort of felt like I achieved what I wanted to. It kind of like, I felt kind of complete with aerobatics. Like it's not like I stopped completely, but I didn't feel like I needed to do any more comps or anything. And also,
I was very poor and I needed sponsorship and it was very hard to get sponsorship for aerobatics, whereas at that time, cross-country racing, you could get sponsored. So, and I was getting more interested in the idea of that whole domain of cross-country. So that's when I shifted. So from kind of 99 to 2005, I just really went for it. really, did, you know, kind of all the comps every year. I ended up getting sponsored first from Altair and then from Wells Wing and then from Icaro and then from Arrows.
And then finally I did a little bit of boys at the end, but yeah, I went through all the major competitors, I was just absolutely loving it, enjoying it. But then it was kind of like, it was actually around 2002 or three. did have, that's where I kind of had this, it was kind of a mental breakdown really. I mean, for lack of better word, I had done that 10 day retreat, things had really shifted for me. I was flying better, but at the same time was like, I...
I found a sense of light at the end of the tunnel from a lot of darkness that I've been through on a personal level, but at the same time I realized there was something more, there's more that needed to be resolved. And it kind of all, I there's a perfect storm I'm not really going to that happened in my life. And I ended up having to kind of deal with all that. And I ended up getting actually much more serious about the meditation because that was the only thing I didn't really trust the mental health system. And it's the only thing that really like I trusted would help me to get through what was happening for me.
you know, lot of depression, anxiety and stuff like that. And then, and I managed to work through that and it kind of came out the other side. And look, I guess my passion shifted. It wasn't that I lost passion in flying, but it was more that I wanted to help others like that. After having gone through that kind of dark night of the soul myself, I felt more inspired to want to help other people who are going through their own dark nights of the soul. So that, that was where my career took a turn.
Paris (33:52.354)
So I did keep competing off and on and somehow I managed to keep it. Like every time I did a comp, I would usually do off and win or get on the podium and somehow managed to maintain that. But the intensity of my competition after 2005 went way down. And then, but I'd occasionally still do a team, get on the US team, it always would invite me back and I'd usually pretty easy to get onto it and then.
And then the last, I was in New Zealand for the last 10 years and I kind of stopped flying all together for about six years just as I was really focused on other stuff. And then when I came back to the U.S. I thought, oh, really want to get back into this again. So then, yeah, I went and I did my first comp in a number of years at Florida last year with the Nationals of, yeah. So I went in.
Gavin McClurg (34:35.396)
And that was the one you won. That's interesting. mean, with that big of a gap and being away from it for so long and coming back and performing that well, that, I often think that distance and getting away from something, you can often get better.
because you're just, you're not doing it all the time. You gain perspective that's sometimes I think hard to get when you're doing it all the time. I'm not sure I articulated that correctly.
Paris (35:06.088)
Yeah, no, can totally understand. Like beginner's mind, you're kind of coming at it with sort of beginner's mind. Yeah, it's a different perspective. It's true. Yeah, I feel I can resonate with that. Where I think because I've seen it go both ways where you get people really great, know, a good record of competition, obviously really good positive. They get out of it for a while and they come back and they totally bomb, right? That's actually definitely been a thing in our sport. Not everyone, but that has happened and it's really kind of frustrating.
Gavin McClurg (35:10.51)
Yeah.
Paris (35:35.726)
So, but what I think and I've kind of felt that tendency myself when I've taken a long break. You think you're the pilot you were and you're not and it's been a number of years and you're trying it's like you're trying to again you get totally achievement oriented. Okay I gotta I gotta prove myself again you know I was just I was this kind of legend back then I gotta be a legend again and and then it kills you like as you talked about your last call soon as you have that attitude it's like the worst as you can have right it takes you out of the present and you get all emotional and
And so I definitely made, every time I took these breaks, I kind of knew that maybe it's my psychology training. don't know. But I knew that that was like bad. Like don't do that. Like don't get obsessed with winning. Just go have fun. And so really made that like my mantra. My mantra was just have fun. Just make goal. Even if you do it really slowly, just make it. Don't forget about trying to race and kind of, you know, trust that, you know, as long as you do your best and don't try to really charge that you'll know, you you'll be able to fly efficiently.
And each time I was able to, like I managed to do quite well that way. But I had to make the effort to not let the, get sucked into that. have to win. I have to keep the title or get the title back. It's really important not to go there. yeah. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (36:49.499)
Okay, interesting. So with this coming back to it, you were down in New Zealand for 10 years, you said? Yeah, about 10 years. And this was in academia?
Paris (36:57.068)
Yeah, about 10 years.
Paris (37:01.96)
Yeah, I ended up, well long story short, in 2006 I married a New Zealand woman. And we ended up living in the US for quite a while, but then her family was there and they were having lot of problems and difficulties. So we ended up moving there. I wasn't really enjoying the US politics much anyway and all of that. thought, I'll go try New Zealand out. So that was, but then after 10 years.
a lot of combination of things happen. You know, my parents getting older over here and just things fizzling out in our relationship and just I really feel in the pool to come back here, come back home. North Island for about four years, five years, about half the time. And then South Island for about that long as well. Very little, first few years a bit.
Gavin McClurg (37:44.698)
Were you in the South Island or North Island?
Gavin McClurg (37:53.348)
But no flying, you weren't flying down there.
Okay.
Paris (37:58.638)
I just, the only comps I basically did was just, I'd fly over to Australia and they'd give me a light speed. The Moise, you know, the Moise is over there in Australia. And then I did a couple of comps over there. Yeah. And that was, that was a lot of fun. So I ended up actually ended up winning a couple of big ones, but.
Gavin McClurg (38:08.931)
Okay.
Gavin McClurg (38:12.432)
So you were kinda, you were staying kinda tuned up. I you weren't, you hadn't totally left the sport for 10 years. Okay.
Paris (38:16.398)
Kind of, yeah. And then it was like the last five years before I moved back here last year. I almost didn't fly at all. I ended up getting really preoccupied with other projects. Basically, we bought some land and we're doing a ton of building work, landscaping and building and trying to kind of regenerating this land. And that ended up sort of taking up a lot of my passion and time. But I was really missing flying. I was feeling it. I was missing it. So was nice to get back into it here.
Gavin McClurg (38:44.314)
Do you get that whole, I get this kind of almost, it's a rational, stupid fear and I was just bouncing between my ears. when I, maybe it was all the year, I did the X-House for a long time. And so I was just kind of in this constant state of training during all of those. And so now I, what's the word? I get anxious when I'm not getting better.
Does that make sense? If I'm not trading, I don't know, I have this FOMO, I guess, of the super final just happened down in Columbia and I was gonna go and then the last minute I pulled out, because I'm not very excited about Roll the Neo anymore, is I pulled out, but I watched every day. It's just kind of silly. Anyway, my question is, when you're working on the land, are you able to...
Paris (39:13.08)
Right.
Paris (39:18.062)
You hit a plateau.
Paris (39:34.167)
Yep.
Gavin McClurg (39:40.791)
leave the flying behind?
Paris (39:43.99)
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was always the back of my.
mind or back of my heart, where you want to put it, know, like somebody was sort of missing because it just became such an important part of who I am and my identity and my, you know, what gives me joy. And so it never really went away. Like I was always kind of really missing that. I'd like to do some flying. But I'd made these major commitments and it was kind of conflicting with being able to do that during those years. And so when I did come back here, it was definitely like, I'm going to get back in a flight. Like I'm going to, you know, and, and even actually take a paragliding.
And so I did that a year ago to just kind of expand my horizons a little bit. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (40:24.12)
wow, let's talk about that. So you're now flying paragliders as well. But they collapse, dude. Isn't that...
Paris (40:29.582)
Yeah, I know, I know, I know. I have not got over, I don't know if I'll ever get over that fear of that actually. Maybe I shouldn't get over that fear, I suppose. But I only started a year ago. I I'm like, I just got my P3 and I've got 35 hours. did one SIV clinic, so anyway, pretty, I'm really new, I'm really new. But the reason I got into it was because I wanted to be able to hike and fly.
and it's really hard to hike and fly with a hang glider.
Gavin McClurg (40:58.8)
Yes.
Paris (40:59.99)
So that was really the... But now I'm torn because I love flying big desert air, big thermals, and I'm actually terrified of doing it in a paraglider. I've already had a few collapses, even flying Inspiration Peak not far from here, flying over the canyon and had a full collapse, 100 % collapse, over this canyon. There was a moment of like, my God, I don't want to throw my parachute here. I'm looking down at these rocks and these canyons.
Gavin McClurg (41:10.223)
Really.
Paris (41:29.904)
you know, within a couple of seconds. But still it was like, how do you get over that fear of your glider just suddenly out of the blue? seemed like, I suppose that's the thing, is as you get better, it's less and less out of the blue, I suppose. But it still feels like it just happens out of the blue for me.
Gavin McClurg (41:44.376)
Yeah, and you know, it also gets to where they just don't do that anymore. You know, you get good enough that you just, I mean, you're still going to have it. You're still going to, especially in the air that we fly, here in the Rockies, we're going to put it in a spot that this is, you're going to take a whack. But I think they just become second nature. It's like your second skin and they don't, you don't really also.
Paris (41:50.198)
Right. You can catch it.
Paris (42:02.691)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (42:13.072)
This is maybe not very good advice that I should bring out there, but as you get better and as you start flying hotter gliders, they're giving you a lot more feedback. That's a good way to put it, I guess. But the two-liners just don't frontal and don't collapse like lower end gliders do. And at least they're certainly tough. I if they do, then of course things are worse. But yeah, I just...
Paris (42:15.206)
Okay.
Paris (42:23.948)
More feedback, yeah.
Paris (42:40.847)
less likely to in the first place.
Gavin McClurg (42:42.224)
much less likely, especially if you're flying well. If you're paying attention, it just doesn't happen much anymore. I I remember 10 years ago when I was flying the NCs and stuff, I was taking hits all the time. But I think that's a combination of things. It's the wing I'm flying and I'm a better pilot.
Paris (42:47.555)
Yeah.
Paris (42:53.43)
Right, you feel the wing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. mean, well, the big risk I see, and I know friends of mine who went from hang gliding to paragliding and ended up getting quite badly hurt, a couple things. One, you forget, you know, don't have the same penetration into the wind. It's easy to forget that. And that's actually what happened when I, so.
when the collapse happened I got back into this canyon and I was just so many years on a hang glider there was some wind and I thought I'll just you know I can still glide out and I went to glide I was like oh I'm barely penetrating and I'm in this canyon and this is not a good place to be and so I actually let my hands go up up up on the brakes to you know to get more speed and then of course it made the glider less stable to collapse so I mean it was pilot in hindsight it was really all pilot error
Gavin McClurg (43:23.834)
Yep.
Paris (43:41.454)
So I could totally see that. But part of it is getting used to the fact A, I don't have the penetration that I'm used to and B, the glider can collapse. know, hang gliders don't collapse. Well, that's not harm set true. They can tumble, which fortunately is very rare. And if that's really bad when that happens, you just kind of get used to not having to think about keeping your wing inflated. It's just, you you don't get used to it. So when you suddenly get on a wing that can collapse, quite different.
Gavin McClurg (43:52.869)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (44:03.416)
Yeah, it seems like it's really a restructuring of the approach, right? And I'm not a hang glider, but I always hear that from hang gliders, but they collapse. it's just in our world, we don't think about that that much. Of course we do, they collapse. But I think it's probably a restructuring I'm imagining of just margin and performance, really. Yes.
Paris (44:10.242)
Yeah.
Paris (44:17.048)
Hahaha
Paris (44:21.805)
Yeah, yeah.
Paris (44:29.422)
And attention, right? Now you gotta donate a certain percentage of your, we're talking about presence, is the wing inflated and keeping it inflated, right? And so when you fly a hang glider, that's not really, you're just not putting your attention there at all.
so that you have to kind of train yourself to have this constant 20 or whatever it is percent of your attention on your wing stability. And that's, think that's probably a big part of the learning curve from hang gliding to paragliding is doing that. Does that sound, would you agree with that or does that sound about, yeah, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (44:57.772)
or totally, yeah, 100%. I mean, jumping to a completely different, I just had a really neat experience out in the Sierras flying in really, really strong wave. And we flew at night with night vision gaulas and saw this guy, Gordon out there, who's just doing some amazing stuff. And we did a show on it and there was an article. But we, you at one point we got pretty...
proper low really deep in the Sears. We'd done a northern leg way past Reno and we're coming back down south heading down towards Whitney and now it's daylight, you we can see and.
and we got what I would have considered really low, kind of dirty low back in, and it was really strong wave. mean, there was incredibly strong winds and stuff. And, you know, in my mind, we got to get the hell out of here, man. I mean, how are we going to possibly get to the runway for me? I mean, I know in a glider you kind of want to land on a runway. And, you know, for him it was just, no, we got a lot of time.
Paris (45:46.734)
All right.
Gavin McClurg (46:01.228)
It's just a whole nother, yeah, and I'm sure, so there's a lot of that just between, you know, hang gliders and paragliders. It's just restructuring. You know, I know exactly probably where you were flying inspo back in that canyon. You just won't do that on a paraglider anymore. You know, that's not a nice place to be because you can't penetrate out of there.
Paris (46:05.976)
Yeah, shifting your perspective.
Paris (46:18.414)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the big rocks make it a little bit, yeah, little bit gnarlier with the turbulence, kind of noticing that, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (46:25.622)
Right, yeah, tough lessons. That always is a thing though. There's that one of our very first shows in my neighbor, Matt Beecher, we call him Farmer. He has this great story of flying out in the Sierras.
on the main chain, so not over in the whites, but the main chain in the Sierras and getting pretty dirty low and really bad air and had a huge, has a big collapse and his recovery stories is fantastic, but it's that whole, we always, yeah, you could just throw your reserve, but yeah, but not in some places. Some places you're looking down going.
Paris (47:03.746)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (47:06.338)
I don't think that's my safest option. That happens in the Alps a lot too. You're just looking down going, yeah, this is not a place to throw a reserve. Of course, at some point you'd have to to try to do something, but yeah. Those are always mentally, are, that doesn't look.
Paris (47:08.888)
Yeah.
Paris (47:16.812)
Yeah, to survive,
Paris (47:25.102)
Yeah, that's right. I'm my plan and I don't want to I don't want to hurt or maim myself. I love the idea of that being by Wingull, but I'm going to take it easy. I'm not going to do middle of July, you know, middle day conditions for at least a couple of years, I'd say. I'm going to just go back to my hangy for that. And so this year, I'm looking forward to trying to maybe do some long, maybe even try to some records or something here in Utah with a hang glider. So, yeah, we'll see how that goes. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (47:52.56)
Excellent. We're the same age. How, but you've been in this a lot longer than I have. I'm 25 years, I guess, or so now, but no, no, that's not right. 20 years, a little over 20 years. So you've been in twice the length that I have, but how have things changed for you because of age in your approach to the sport?
Paris (48:21.646)
Yeah, think, well, I mean, you recognize your mortality a little bit more, I think, you know, and the fragility of your body. I just remember in my 20s, it wasn't even a consideration, hardly, my mortality. I mean, a little bit of a consideration, but yeah, not as much as it probably should have been. I think there was a lot of luck that I survived that. so yeah, just generally a lot more aware of, just more conservative in that regard, you know, like not pushing it and feel like I have other things to live for. You know, I guess back then too, I...
I mean, there was a time where I just really didn't have anything else to live for. Like it was kind of, that was my whole life. And so if I die, who cares? know, die doing what I love. Now it's like, there's other things I actually do want to live for. so yeah, so that's a big shift. And the priorities, again, the stimulation isn't like, you know, at that age, it was that kind of high I was looking for all the time.
And I know obviously people might still chasing that, but I don't chase that intense thing. I don't need the big adrenaline rushes like I used to. I find the fun is a little bit more, I don't know, more of a relaxed kind of fun. Just enjoying the beauty, pushing the limits absolutely, but I don't need to like scare myself all the time. That's really something I try to do anymore. So those are probably the biggest changes I've noticed.
Gavin McClurg (49:42.192)
You mentioned maybe going after some records and stuff this summer. Love that. That's fantastic. What would your gear be? What do you find these days? And the audience, obviously not many of them are going to be very familiar with Utah. So let's not get too specific, but what are you looking for and what lines are you looking at to accomplish that?
Paris (50:00.13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Paris (50:11.34)
Yeah, so even though I lived here in the early 90s, I wasn't doing any cross country. it's all kind of new to me. From the Monroe, it's a really great, as you know well, really great spot. So you can go in quite a few directions from there. Just running along the Wasatch, so like over the Wasatch Range, again, for people that don't know, is kind of a lovely long north-south.
you know, with 10, 11, up to 12,000 foot mountains. So kind of really running that range. Also on the border of Wyoming, there's like Randolph where you can launch, go over the back and then you just get right into the nice windy plains, do some miles there. I'm kind of more interested in running mountains than the flats or at least the combination of the two.
We have a site called over by Park City called Heber that has been closed but I'm gonna see if I can open it again because you can it's east facing so you can launch in the morning you get the morning thermals so you can launch earlier and then you know when the westerlies kick in you can you can ride those and that's kind of the lines I'm looking at. I don't know if that was that the question or
Gavin McClurg (51:15.822)
Yeah, and what are you flying? What will you be flying for the records?
Paris (51:19.316)
Yeah, so I'm actually, so I really like the idea of having a tail. there's an Aeros makes a combat which has a tail on it and it's the only high performance glider that I'm aware of that actually formally, you know, it's certified with a tail and all of that.
And I think, and I've been thinking over the years that there's a reason why there aren't any, that I know of any birds without tails. That's right. And when you're flying big, big desert mountain air, you know, sometimes you hit some pretty rough stuff and people do tumble. And I just like the reassurance of that. So the combat, I like the tail and it's actually one of the, it's...
the smallest glider, it's the best performing little glider. I don't weigh very much. And so I've always had a hard time finding a glider that fits me properly, but performs well. The larger gliders always perform better. And this particular glider, the Combat 12.7 is the size, but it's probably the best sort of blend for me in my weight as far as getting the best performance for the proper size. And then again, that tail's great. It's very reassuring when you're, you know, you're shooting up at 2000 feet a minute and you go over the edge. It's like, oh, there's that
Gavin McClurg (52:28.612)
Yeah, right.
Paris (52:29.264)
Okay, thank you.
Gavin McClurg (52:32.048)
It's interesting you mentioned Randolph. I don't know if you ever saw that film we did quite a few years back called 500 Miles to Nowhere and that was a stop. It was called 500 Miles to Nowhere because we never got anywhere. We started down at Hurricane and the plan was to bivvy to Jackson, know, just connect it and connect it in the air. So like I did with Will and the Rockies, you know, that was...
Paris (52:44.619)
okay, okay, okay.
Paris (52:51.544)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (52:57.476)
wherever we ended was where we started the next day. We weren't connecting it on foot, you know. And so, but the weather was terrible and it OD'd every day and it was a very late monsoon season. But one of the places we flew was Randolph. And so those of you listening don't know this area, it's north of Salt Lake, kind of, I guess kind of midway between, it? But it's a big ridge, big beautiful river down below it. And I always thought it was just a ridge soaring site, but you're saying you could get up there and ping off into the desert.
Paris (53:00.728)
Yep.
Paris (53:28.364)
Yeah, I mean, it's just an option I'm looking at, airplane. I love the idea of hurricane and her.
Gavin McClurg (53:29.415)
Cool.
Mmm.
Paris (53:34.616)
Hurricane, I think is how you pronounce it, and just running north as far as you can. mean, that's certainly something else I would love to explore as well. But you get into, Wyoming had the foot launch world record for many years actually, because you just get these consistent westerlies that just, you know, pretty strong, but it's pretty flat. you know, it's not too, you know, you can find quite strong wind, but not worrying about rotor and things like that. And so when you get out, you get over the Wyoming plains, you can often just
Gavin McClurg (53:35.909)
Yep.
Gavin McClurg (53:41.678)
Yeah.
Paris (54:04.65)
make miles. You can go pretty far, pretty fast. And so I think connecting the dots from the mountains into the Wyoming flats could potentially, you could get some pretty good miles that way, I think.
Gavin McClurg (54:17.626)
I was down in Ticima in Brazil, when was that? In 2017 maybe, and they had just broken the foot launch record the year before, Rafael and all those guys, and they, from Ticima, and there were hang gliders there too, going forward as well. that still where the foot launch record is for hang gliding?
Paris (54:30.414)
Mmm.
Paris (54:42.254)
I actually haven't kept track so I don't know but the Wyoming one I'm pretty sure was broken quite a while ago. You know the hang gliding foot launch record from Wyoming. Pretty sure that I think it was even broken in Australia was last I heard I think it have been Johnny Durand and in North in Queensland Australia I'm pretty sure got the foot launch record going but that was again that was quite a few years ago so I haven't kept up I'm not sure where the most latest one is.
Gavin McClurg (54:48.901)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (55:08.909)
All right,
Paris (55:09.624)
But I know the, I haven't been there, but I know the Brazil side you're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, if, it sounds like such great conditions if you, if you time it all right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Gavin McClurg (55:16.898)
It is really, really, really tricky start though. You know, the big stuff that they've been doing.
since then has been towing. they're actually, I'm pretty sure the Brazilian record now is, you know, it's now in Texas for us, for paragliding it's in Texas, but for a long time Brazil had it forever. And I think they beat the foot launch record by towing in Tosima. So they towed in front of that hill, which just gave them more, just easier, because foot launching from there, I think for the hang gliders was reasonable. For us, it wasn't very reasonable. It was pretty spicy and it pretty was.
Paris (55:49.71)
Yep, makes sense.
Gavin McClurg (55:52.664)
And then, you know, it's really early in the morning, you can't get high and you got to fly 40K really low over this kind of escarpment before it drops away. So the way more reasonable flying in Brazil is all being done east of,
think about the map west of that and they're towing and Kaco and other places so your first moves aren't death defined. But then the problem with that is you run into the Amazon quicker so that you can't, you're not gonna get the 600K that they have in Texas now. Is Johnny's and Dustin's, is that still the record in hang gliding down in Texas?
Paris (56:27.15)
Right, Do you think it, yeah.
Paris (56:33.838)
As as I know, yeah, that's the, yeah, so not flood launch, that'll be a tow record done in Texas, yeah. And they do keep the flood launch and tow record separately. again, as far as I know, I kind of got out of looking at that stuff for a few years, but as far as know, they still have it. Yeah, and that's, I can't remember the exact mileage. You're getting up, they're getting up to like 450 miles. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (56:39.056)
and they still have that.
Gavin McClurg (56:43.439)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (56:55.438)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty awesome. You know, your neighbor Cody has had the Footlaunch record for a brief second. I might have my time screen. I can't remember. The guy that's done it down in Texas did it both. He got the Footlaunch and then he got the toe one both in Texas. But Cody had it for a while flying, I believe it's from Lab.
Paris (56:59.938)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (57:20.848)
You know one of your sites there in Wyoming out over the you follow that is that the 8086 you follow the freeway East and But there there you always get that northerly flow that you know late in the day it starts bending It's hard to kind of keep going straight Yeah, yeah, and he went for For 30 or 440 K
Paris (57:27.886)
Yeah 80. Uh-huh. Yep.
Paris (57:38.926)
kind of stops you. Yeah, stops you track. So that's Paragliding. Is that Paragliding record.
Paris (57:50.338)
Wow. Cool.
Gavin McClurg (57:51.096)
Yeah, pretty sweet.
Paris (57:54.422)
Yeah, yeah, you know, that's, I guess the fun thing about that, it doesn't have the same intensity like we talked about earlier with competition flying, you know, you're just really comparing, you know, sure you might be comparing to old records, but you're really just competing with yourself, right? So in some ways it doesn't have the psychological intensity of that you get in an actual, you know, full on competition. But on the other hand, you don't have the companionship so much, although you can, you can get your buddies out to try to set the record together, of course.
Gavin McClurg (58:09.476)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (58:23.374)
Yeah, and mean there's something about that too, is that mean that your, I think your odds go immeasurably up when you're flying with others, right? Because you're just, you're flying faster. There's no way you can fly as fast by yourself as you can with a group.
Paris (58:31.5)
That's right.
Paris (58:35.69)
Absolutely, Well, it depends if you have good clouds. I mean, you have really reliable clouds, then you can usually come pretty close. But yeah, if it's a blue day, absolutely. Having each other to mark for the thermals and find the cores quickly and all of that is going to be a lot faster.
Gavin McClurg (58:39.386)
Sure.
Gavin McClurg (58:52.224)
Here's something, with hang gliding, we talk about this all the time. most of the time in the West, we're flying downwind, right? We're going downwind, especially for the foot launch record stuff. Here's Sun Valley and the Wasatch, these places, it's typically West and we're typically going East and we're flying downwind. But when we're flying the rec, going for the records, or just flying XC, just in general.
I use my speed bar a lot less than when I'm racing. We all know that we could go a lot faster if we were racing. If there was 20 of us in the sky and we were really trying to belt one out. It's interesting, isn't it? Is it the same in hang gliding? Are you pulling the rope as much when you're just flying by yourself?
Paris (59:21.559)
Right.
Paris (59:35.886)
yeah, I'm just kind of reflecting on that. Probably not quite as much, right? mean, you know, in general, you do tend to push yourself harder in lots of ways, whether it's, you know, pulling that rope a little tighter, which makes the hang glider harder to handle.
It also feels a little bit less stable, you know, with the pitch and stuff. When you pull that rope further, when you're a cop, you tend to push it little further than you probably would comfortably do it otherwise. That's right. And you do tend to find yourself going into terrain where the landing is not as good as you might, you know, ideally like to go into or getting a little too close to that Q or, you know, so that's, you do get enticed into things and competition that you wouldn't if you weren't in a cop. Absolutely. I think most of us would agree on that.
That's one of the risks of competition is you can get enticed to behaviors that are more risky. You're enticed to push it a bit further than you normally would. Something to keep an eye on.
Gavin McClurg (01:00:34.256)
One more question for you, Paris. If you could rewind the clock to your, I guess, 14-year-old self, somewhere in there, 50 hours, 50 hour self, so 14 to 18 somewhere? 17, 18, okay. What advice would you give yourself now? You're 52 now, but you get to go back and talk to that kid.
Paris (01:00:42.905)
Okay, 58. Okay, was 17, 18, yeah.
Paris (01:00:56.494)
like flying related advice or any advice.
Gavin McClurg (01:00:58.732)
No, how about anything? Let's do both. Let's do both.
Paris (01:01:02.894)
Okay. I would actually just say good job kid, keep it up. Like keep following your bliss. You know because that was one thing I somehow had in the midst of like I saying there's a lot of darkness in my life at time was I somehow trusted, I had this trust that if I just keep following what really lit me up like what really I was passionate about that you know I would enjoy life. It would work out somehow and it did.
Gavin McClurg (01:01:11.119)
Huh.
Paris (01:01:31.374)
So I would actually it's kind of interesting as I go back I would say, you know, just keep it up. This is it, know, keep following your bliss. Don't lose sight of your passion. Passion might change from time to time and just keep, you know, staying tuned to that and following that and it'll work out.
Gavin McClurg (01:01:49.296)
That can actually, that goes both ways. That's for flying and for life. I think that works for both. That's an easy answer.
Paris (01:01:52.872)
Absolutely both exactly. Follow your bliss. That's right. Yeah, because it's easy to lose sight. it's in the keyword there's your bliss. You know, you can still get pulled by, you know, maybe well-meaning parents or society or whatever, know, the two.
follow a direction that's not actually like your own spirit calling you in that direction, but you feel like, I really should do this because that's what my family wants or that's what society wants. For drop that, what do you want? What lights you up? And so I think that's the key word in that phrase, follow your bliss. And that is one thing I somehow managed to, I I had a few mentors in the midst of some of those storms in my life that encouraged that for me.
which was great. that was, I think, in hindsight, that was like the best advice and I'm really glad I did that.
Gavin McClurg (01:02:50.48)
Paris, thank you, man. That was a real treat. I really enjoyed that conversation and I hope I get to join you maybe breaking records or doing some cool flying. I'd love to go fly a paraglider with you. I don't have the skills to keep up with you on a hang glider, but one of these days I hope our paths cross.
Paris (01:02:57.142)
Yeah, me too.
Paris (01:03:13.352)
Yeah, likewise. I'll have to work on the paragliding skills a little more so I can try to keep up with you. Yeah, lot of fun, Gavin. Thanks for having me.
Gavin McClurg (01:03:18.384)
You
Gavin McClurg (01:03:22.778)
Thanks, Paris.
Cool. I'm gonna leave this thing rolling just because maybe we'll throw this in. I didn't want to end it on this question because it's not in the right, it's not linear with our conversation, but do you think that your...
Paris (01:03:37.249)
Okay.
Gavin McClurg (01:03:43.01)
struggles and hard youth and mental health stuff. Is that really helpful in becoming a psychologist? mean, do think that really helps you relate to your patients and...
Paris (01:03:56.31)
Yeah, I do. The school of hard knocks, right? I mean, I think because it's not a requirement, but because you can have more empathy. You you've been there. You've been in some really dark places. You've struggled with overwhelming emotions and experiences or whatever. And so when you're working with people who are struggling with that stuff, it's not just coming out of textbook. You know what it feels like. You don't know exactly what their experience is, but you can have a pretty good sense of it. And so...
So A, it gives you empathy, the capacity to have empathy, and B, they feel more heard, I think, understood. It helps them, like someone that gets it. And C, you're more likely to be able to give guidance, because you've kind of been there. So if you just, there's the academics, and you're learning the protocols, et cetera, and therapy protocols and stuff, but.
If you haven't actually been there yourself, it's harder. see. The reality is it's true what they say about psychologists and therapists that most of them are, you know, are bit messed up themselves in some way or another, at least have been. Hopefully they've come out of that a bit, but it actually ends up becoming a gift in that work, you know, having been through some tough stuff yourself.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:00.751)
Right.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:13.168)
Being, now we're way off topic, so Miles, I don't expect any of this to be in show, but being wrapped up in psychology and helping people, is that good or bad for your own personal mental health? And I'm dealing with other people's shit all the time.
Paris (01:05:18.83)
Okay, sure.
Paris (01:05:32.174)
That's actually a great question. mean it can be both. Like on one hand it's, you know when you're sitting with people with this stuff it's like it forces you to be really present and like really cultivate those capacities you talked about earlier. The capacity, well presence for compassion, for empathy.
which actually is really good for you, cultivating those things. But if you do too much of it, you can end up with what's called vicarious trauma, where if you're sitting with a lot of people bringing, some of the stuff, I work with severe trauma, some horrible stuff, like all kinds of childhood abuse and torture and just really, really awful stuff.
Gavin McClurg (01:06:07.376)
Jesus.
Paris (01:06:11.392)
If you sit too much with that, it can start to kind of bog you down. You know, we call it vicarious trauma. So you have to find your line. You have to do two things. You have to make sure you have really good resources yourself, like going flying on the weekends or whatever, and know your limits. you know, kind of start to go, I'm getting burned out. That's why they've got the highest burnout rate of any profession, because it can be quite hard sitting with that.
Gavin McClurg (01:06:35.556)
What's your take on, I don't know how new this is, on medicinal therapy? I'm talking about MDMA and plant medicine, yeah.
Paris (01:06:49.046)
Yeah, like plant medicine and that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So I'm a, well, there's two part answers. So there's the other medicinal psychiatric drugs and stuff. And with that, the experience that I've had with clients and stuff and also the research is pretty clear that they can provide short-term benefit, but often they make things worse for people in long-term. So often people end up on, they end up on this.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:12.676)
You're talking about the cycle, what do call it? Psychiatric drugs.
Paris (01:07:14.184)
Psychiatric drugs, yeah. So I just wanted to say that upfront, because it's very different philosophy. So take this pill every day. Yeah, absolutely can be beneficial, but for the long term, it often causes more problems, and it helps for people who do that route. Now with the sort plant medicine approach, it's a whole different philosophy. Generally speaking, you're using the drug as a catalyst.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:19.162)
Right.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:26.457)
Interesting.
Paris (01:07:35.35)
to have an experience which can pull you out of the trance. So like you could look at actually being stuck in like maybe an anxiety disorder or depression or unresolved trauma is almost like being stuck in a trance. Like you just get kind of locked into the state and it's really hard to get out of it. And you take like LSD or psilocybin or mescaline or ketamine or something. It can actually pull you out of that trance, even if it's temporary, but in the process of pulling you out of that, then the therapist can help you kind of.
bookmark and stabilize this more clear space, alternative to being in your depression or whatever it is. And then you integrate that into your day to day life. You don't keep doing the LSD or the psilocybin every day. It's a totally different philosophy. It's just a catalyst. You might do it once.
Gavin McClurg (01:08:18.032)
Mm.
Paris (01:08:23.082)
a month for several months and then you're done kind of thing. So I think that's actually really helpful for many people. I don't do that myself. I don't facilitate that, but I think it's great. think for many people it's super helpful, I think, and I've seen those results.
Gavin McClurg (01:08:29.338)
Okay.
Gavin McClurg (01:08:35.3)
Yeah, neat.
Gavin McClurg (01:08:40.112)
Right, okay, Okay, one more question. keep saying that. And now we're pushing into, I should pay you for this. So if you got to jump off to something else, then I'd be happy to, but so I, and I've been quite vocal about this on the show, but a year, not a year ago, yeah, almost a year ago, May.
Paris (01:08:44.928)
Yeah, yeah.
Paris (01:08:49.836)
hahahaha
Gavin McClurg (01:09:04.048)
I lost my best friend in an avalanche, guy named Terry O'Connery, an ER doc here. He was really responsible for getting our town through COVID and massive workaholic, but just an expert. He was really good friends with all your avalanche center folks down in the Wasatch and taught avalanche safety. So it was a big, and he was my main ski partner. mean, typically kind of five days a week ski partner for the last...
Paris (01:09:06.849)
Paris (01:09:25.828)
wow.
Gavin McClurg (01:09:31.504)
10-12 years here in town. So he's my daughter's godfather. A lot of very, very in our work, my flying work, you you and I both, I'm sure lost a lot of friends, but this was this was a different whole different level. I was actually over at a World Cup in Switzerland. It was the last the night before the last task was when it happened and I was running the rescue from over there because his SOS went off.
Paris (01:09:37.39)
Sorry to hear that.
Paris (01:09:49.56)
Yeah, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:10:00.238)
went to his girlfriend's mother, because the SOS came from her. They were skiing together. was his ex-girlfriend, but she lives right down the street from me, very good friend, and they didn't know what to do with this. They get the SOS and they didn't know it anyway. So I was very involved in it. And so my question is, I've had a really hard time.
getting over this in a sense. I mean, I think I'm going through all the steps, but a buddy of mine, a real famous skier recently posted that, you know, in his experience, you know, when you lose somebody, especially with guys, you know, you either take it on head on or a lot of people just escape, right? Which is what we do in our sport. You drink, you do drugs, you fly, you know, you just run from it in a sense.
Paris (01:10:25.378)
I'm sure, yeah.
Paris (01:10:46.659)
Yeah.
Paris (01:10:52.513)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:10:52.976)
I would say I'm not running from it, especially not with drinking and drugs, but the beginning, like the first two or three months was just dealing. I did his ceremony, which was 1,500 people. I ran that, so it was just.
all of it, tons of crying and tons of sadness and tons of actually family and friends and people coming over here all the time. so part of that was very healing and special, but we were just dealing, I think all of us, especially his girlfriend, she's really struggling. She's having a really hard time because she was there and had to dig them out and it was really nasty. And so let me get to my question.
Paris (01:11:31.085)
Yeah.
Yeah. god.
Gavin McClurg (01:11:43.842)
It seems like the last couple of months are even harder because it all comes home. Now is the time where you're, now I really miss them. I really missed them when it happened obviously, it's, anyway, I'm just wondering what, I guess that's PTSD, right? Is this trauma that I'm dealing with?
Paris (01:12:03.854)
Yeah, I I would probably refer to it more as a grief process, but actually grief you can see as a kind of trauma really. I mean, when we talk about grief, you lose someone really close to you like that. It is a traumatic event, absolutely. And so the kind of the way out is through, so to speak. So, typically...
Gavin McClurg (01:12:08.985)
Okay.
Okay.
Paris (01:12:26.71)
you hold the emotions in your body. mean, actually the sensations in your body and that kind of thing. And the more work you can do as it feels appropriate with, you whenever the waves will come. So they'll come in waves. You probably noticed that you'll have a wave of real sadness or something will just come up. Sometimes maybe a song will bring it on or a particular location or something will sort of, and you'll have a wave. And the best thing you can do is every time you run from it, like you say, and push it away, it just goes back down and you didn't actually
Gavin McClurg (01:12:39.651)
Okay? Yeah.
Yeah.
Paris (01:12:56.804)
anything. And so the best thing to do is let it out. The way you let it out is you you find where it lives in your body. I call this a three-step mindfulness process. So step one when you're starting to feel strong emotions come up. Step one where does it live in my body? Like you'll find it in that moment it'll be easy because it's a strong feeling. It's often going to be in your heart or maybe like your gut or solar plexus or something like that.
Locate it and map it out. Like actually just take a moment and just kind of, okay, it's kind of right here and it's about this size and shape and it has these qualities, you know, hot, cold or whatever. So just take a moment, really map it out. And then step two, just shift to your breath and your nostrils. Just take a few breaths through your nostrils. And step three, breathe into the sense, like imagine that you're breathing right into those sensations. So rather than trying to push them away or get rid of them or change them,
with your breathing, you're just actually breathing in openness and spaciousness. Like you're actually just like breathing in room to allow those sensations to do whatever they want to do. Like it's kind of scary because it's kind of intense, but the more you can just actually really open up to them, the more they will actually move through your system. And that's what you want to happen. You want it to start moving out. You don't force it out, but when it comes up spontaneously,
Breathe into that stuff and see if you can just let it happen. Like there's a deeper wisdom happening inside of you that knows what needs to happen to process this grief. And it's the same wisdom that knows how to heal a bone when you break it or when you cut your skin. No doctor does that. They they said it, but it's your own body that repairs that and your own psyche will actually knows what needs to happen here.
Gavin McClurg (01:14:32.762)
anything? Wow.
Paris (01:14:33.965)
Exactly same. And we get in troubles, you we have these very powerful prefrontal cortices as human beings, we can push it back down. And then we can end up with this like chronic condition. Yeah, I don't want to feel that I want to push it down, right? Who wants to feel that stuff is yucky, it doesn't, it's not pleasant. And so we push it back down and then and then we don't and you can get stuck in a kind of chronic.
Gavin McClurg (01:14:43.824)
It's like an auto-perception response kind of thing. Is your brain trying to? Right.
Paris (01:14:56.234)
sort of grief or depressed state for quite a of years even if you keep doing that. So at some point the work, this is what a therapist training and stuff would do anyways, they would just invite you to, sometimes they might evoke some memories intentionally to get the feelings stirred up and then they would just have you kind of put your attention into those sensations in your body and just breathe into them and just see what they want to do and don't interfere, just let it happen.
And it's kind of scary because they're intense, you learn after you do it a couple of times, oh, it always passes. And actually the, we have an expression, what you resist persists. So the more you, the more you resist, you know, you might feel better in that moment, but then it just actually keeps the whole thing going longer. Um, so the work is, you know, giving yourself the opportunity to let those feelings move through, you know, if tears come or you need to yell or whatever it is, just, you know, assuming you're not like in the public or something, you know,
Gavin McClurg (01:15:31.504)
Mmm.
Gavin McClurg (01:15:49.808)
Give that space. Interesting.
Paris (01:15:51.114)
Yeah, give it space for that to happen. You know, just to let those feelings move through your system. Step three is breathing into it. Yeah. So step three, so step one is locating and mapping it out, mapping out the physical sensations in your body. Step two is just connecting, put your attention on your nostrils and the breath at your nostrils. The reason why you go to your nostrils is because that's pretty neutral. That's not really an emotional center for us. Our emotional center tends to be more in our core.
Gavin McClurg (01:15:55.952)
Is that step three?
okay.
Gavin McClurg (01:16:04.144)
Okay. Yep.
Gavin McClurg (01:16:16.685)
Okay, okay.
Paris (01:16:20.312)
but it kind of helps us to get a little bit of groundedness and just find our breath. And then step three, then you imagine on the third step, you breathe into those feelings in your body. And just do that as long as it takes. And the whole point, the tendency is to try to push them away or change them, but that's not it at all. With your breath, you're actually breathing in some room, space, allowance, just letting, there's these feelings here. Okay, I'm just gonna breathe and just let them do what everything I wanna do right now.
Gavin McClurg (01:16:30.063)
Okay.
Paris (01:16:48.622)
I don't know what it is, but they're just sensations. can't actually harm me. Let it happen. And by doing that, they'll actually move through your system. And bit by bit, wave by wave, you'll start to feel better.
Paris (01:17:00.654)
Yeah, you're just facilitating the natural grief process. Yeah, and that's all. We just have clever ways of basically doing that in the whole trauma field and the grief field and stuff. It's just different ways of really doing that kind of that basic work that I just described. Cool. Yeah, pleasure.
Gavin McClurg (01:17:05.86)
Got a therapy session out of this one.
