Tim Pentreath has been flying paragliders for over 30 years. The new frontier for Tim’s flying the last few years has been multi-day bivvy trips in the Alps and this episode is dedicated to that art form in flying. The gear; the skills; setting appropriate objectives; how to prepare; where to go on your first bivvy; how to keep it simple; what you need to know; comfort vs going light; food tips; safety tips; what to know before you go; weather resources; where to camp; tips for flying near wind turbines, communication tips and team tracking, when to go; and a lot more. Thinking of doing some bivvy? Listen up! Happy New Year everyone!
Check out some of Tims wonderful bivvy and flying videos on his YouTube Channel.
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Tim’s epic first day of the first trip in the Maritimes Alps from Col De Bleine
More tips on kit- phone, external battery, charging, etc.
Weather resources
Wind turbine tips, route and weather planning
How to communicate and track your team
To league or not to league?
A story of regret- go for it!
Mentioned in the Show:
Jocky Sanderson, Ed Ewing, XCMagazine, Will Gadd, Nigel Cooper, Greg Hammerton, Nick Neynens, XCTracer, Advance, Ferdy Van Shelven, Paul Guschlbauer, Bruce Marks, Chris Ashtown, Chrigel, Patrick Von Kanel, Reavis Sutphin-Gray, FlySkyHy, Telegram, Garmin_Outdoor, Benjamin Jordan, UK XContest League
Speaker 0 (0s): Vol construction smells of corruption, manipulates,
Speaker 1 (12s): Happy holidays, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem I hope you are enjoying these final days of 2020 in the hope like you need to be fun to look it this year in the rear view mirror. Ah, what a crazy year has been my guest today is Tim Pentreath. I met Tim up in the lakes a couple of years ago. I was on tour with ed Ewing, with North and known, and they scheduled a couple of classes for me to teach you to call it masterclasses. They're really based on a hike and fly and bivvy. And Tim was one of my students.
Well, that's kind of funny though. He knows a lot more than I do, but he's been flying for 30 years and it was, you know, regularly chases it on X contest and very well known British a pilot. And right after this class he got, and you took that class because you really want it to get in to bivvy. And after that, he certainly did. He's been doing some really cool lines with some other friends in the Alps with kind of no objective, just, you know, having fun in the sky and doing it safely and covering ground. So this conversation is all about bivvy and gear and how to get into it.
And we're a good places to go to practice. And what are the kind of minimum skills you need? So we put out this survey quite a few weeks back on how we can improve the Podcast and, and many of the people asked for more shows on a hike and fly and bivvy. So here you go. Enjoy the us. Great talk, super fun. Talk with a good friend of mine, Tim Pentreath and invite you to go and look at the show notes in for this episode to see some of Tim's great videos. He has been documenting these in these bivvy trips he has been taking in there that are a lot of fun.
So
Speaker 0 (1m 51s): ,
Speaker 1 (1m 58s): Tim so awesome to have you on the show that we've met in a few years back now and crazy how fast time flies, but we met at, up at the lakes doing a little hike and fly gig with, with jockey and, and ed Ewing at ECC mag. That was super fun. I can't wait to get back there. I'd been watching all your videos and pictures of the amazing flying you guys do in the UK. And since that talk, and I don't know if maybe it's before that, but you've done some awesome Bibi's and The in the Alps. And I know people have been falling following along those as I have.
And so I, I can't wait to talk to you about that, but maybe a good place to start is just a brief, you know, one page on your history of flying. How'd you get into this absurdity?
Speaker 2 (2m 41s): I Gavin. Well, it's, it's fantastic to talk to you. Thanks very much for inviting me on the show. Oh gosh. How did I get into it? Well, if you go through it all, its probably more than the page 'cause I've been flying for 13 years this year. I started in 1990. Yeah, I know it back in the, in the distant past
Speaker 3 (3m 4s): It was I doing teaching that course that we should turn it off. You should have had you do it.
Speaker 2 (3m 11s): I dunno. Yeah, I know quite as a full-on on you. I don't think, but yeah, I got into it. I used to do a lot of wind surfing and back in those days there was a wind surfing bag that I subscribed to and had an article about paragliding, how it was the ideal sort of light winds alternative to wind surfing. And I'd also seen it on telly. There's a, a, a French pilot and I've forgotten his name. It won't come back to me, I'll know, but he climbed three of the highest peaks in the Alps or the famous three famous peaks in the Alps, paragliding off all of them.
And I think that was in the late eighties and that was, I must've seen how, you know, terrestrial Kelly and it was all there. Wasn't this at that time. And you know, that piqued my interest. And then when I saw this article in, in boards magazine, that was, it signed up there. And then with a couple of mates and the rest is history, I suppose
Speaker 3 (4m 12s): I find it really interesting this flow sport to flow sport de you know, we'll get talks about that. In fact, I was just reading his chapter in the book, you know, we're kind of editing that all up for release here shortly. And he was talking about it, you know, that when people come from other flow sports to flying, it's, it's often a pretty good transition. And when, you know, when you're not, so say like climbing or triathlon or something, it can often be a, a really tough jump because the people that are in a flow sports that are attracted to flow sports. And I, I, I, because I did the same thing, I was a kite surfer before a pilot.
And I think you also have that advantage of understanding the invisible quite a bit better. You understand how it works and how water works. If you're a kayaker, I'm amazed by how fast kayakers get really good at flying.
Speaker 2 (5m 0s): Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with that as you're saying the flow sports, and you mentioned that on just one of your recent podcasts and I've, I've since become a kite surfer myself and sold all my old wind surfing kit, it was actually nothing sadly, but yeah. I mean, I, I dunno. Yeah. Kayak is, you know, you've got the, the whole sort of water flow around, you know, rocks, which is synonymous with. Yeah. And I, you know, I've, I've been failing and wind surfing and for years really, and just teaches you about the, the air and you can react to those little shifts, you know, a lot, especially when you click surf, you're constantly on the bar in and out just adjusting to my Newt, you know, active flying, I suppose, you know exactly what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (5m 49s): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, you're just the, pendulum's maybe a little bit different, but it is active flying. Yeah. And when did you, so I can't remember when, when we did the, the masters class was 20, it was after Alaska came out because that's what it was. It was really, I was kind of touring what the film, so that must have been 2017.
Speaker 2 (6m 9s): Oh, that's what I was going to say. 2017.
Speaker 3 (6m 12s): Were you already well into bivvy at that point or was that kinda the, the launching ramp
Speaker 2 (6m 18s): That was the launching ramp? Really? I would, you know, been on my radar. It, one of those things that I thought about doing for quite awhile, but I'd never really sort of plucked up the courage to take that first step. And it was that later that summer that I did actually my first one, just, that was an overnight of all a bit, but still bolded at the end is not the prompts.
Speaker 3 (6m 41s): What was the catalyst really? I mean, what was it just okay. And you know, you'd done the comp scene. It, was it something you were looking for, something different with flying?
Speaker 2 (6m 50s): Yeah, I've done. I've done, not quite a few British open calms over the years. Never taken it too seriously. I've always a fun, most of the time, it was just on serial class flyovers, you know, sports class. And then I think it was probably 2017. I got my moved on to it. I had a three-line ad before, but it moved, it moved up up a level to the class, a glider to actually having said, I flew back in the day, I had a nervous thing, which was a, that was my second habit glider.
I think that was 94. I got that. And that was a, a D C two three in the back in those days, which is the equivalent of a, a D. But then we went back to, you know, w back to the C class gliders until I started getting incident into the Omega XL series. So yeah, 2017, I was still doing comps, but I just felt that was more to it. And just wanted to do some more adventurous stuff. Really.
That was going to say, it's just the freedom that it gives you when you're not constrained by, you know, retrieves or getting back to the car. You know, that's what that's, what's so liberating about Volvo.
Speaker 3 (8m 16s): And what was the, you know, later that year when you did the, the one night, but when you, when you decided to head over to the Alps and do your first big one there, what was, what was the preparation like? What did you feel like you had to kind of figure out beforehand?
Speaker 2 (8m 33s): Well, on that one, I, that was in 2018. And so the, the, the one, the one day, one of the year before was w I've been down for four or five days thing with a, a friend, Nigel Cooper, Dan in Saint Andre. And he knows that era, like the back of his hand. And I know it pretty well from an quite a few comps over the years. So on that one, it was just a basic kit. I think. I don't even think I had a stove for that one. I think he just, you know, we just used his little stove, so it was on, yeah.
That was like a proving ground. I borrowed someone in their matches, which went down in the night. I just, I didn't, you know, I had a bivvy bag, no tent or anything like that. And it, it rained for a batch actually only 20 minutes. We were incredibly lucky because there were thunderstorms around us. So, you know, asleep was a little, a bit hard to come by that night, but, you know, just for one night you can put up with it. So that was a sort of trial and ground. But I mean, I suppose in terms of preparation for the next trip again, I did it with Nigel actually.
So we had a, sort of a plan of where we wanted to go in terms of a kit. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the fun things about it, isn't it just sort of spending days, weeks, months pouring over, you know, look at the videos and getting stuff from Allie express, you know, cheap tents in the like, and so this is all part of the fun, I think, but for most people in that kit research,
Speaker 3 (10m 11s): I like, you know, its funny to think back there's that scene in the, in the Alaska film where I'm like, I can't believe we forgot Gators. We had six years to prepare for this thing. You know what I mean? I had, I had my stuff laid out for that trip and you know, like January, you know, I've got the sunroom on the back of the house and you know, okay, well that that's got to go OK, well that can come out and you know, just tweaking and tweaking and tweaking for months and then we get up there and no Gators. Yes.
Speaker 2 (10m 36s): Pretty cool boy.
Speaker 3 (10m 38s): Oh for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, take us down the road for you. Where did you go? Where did you end up? How was your approach? You know, what I, what I kind of want to fleece out a little bit is just, you know, for those that are embarking or thinking about embarking on their first bivvy, what are kind of the critical things? What, what do people need to know? What do they not need to know? What do they need to be concerned about?
Speaker 2 (11m 2s): I mean, I would say don't overthink it too much really, but you know, you want to, especially if your, if you're going into the Alps for The to do it, but you could just, you know, here in the UK you can, you could have a simple one or two nights bivvy in the, in the mountains of South Wales or the Hills, you know, you're not going to fly hundreds of kilometers obviously, but you don't have to have fun. You know, you can fly 20 to 30 kilometers, have a hike and then camp and then so it's all, it's all, you know, don't, don't make it too much of a big thing.
I think it is the overall message. You're going to the Alps. You have to plan it a bit more, but again, you know, you might have this great trip plans, you know, for one side of the app. So the other, but at the end of the day, it's just a series of flights and hikes and in the Alps, especially, there's always places to find water and food. So you don't need to carry too much with you. Yeah. Is that it? Does that answer that question?
Speaker 3 (12m 11s): I know I'm trying, I'm thinking about too, like, are you a, are you doing, are you still using a bivvy sack? Are you using a tarp? Are you using a tent? You know, how heavy is your gear drilled down a little bit more on, on the gear you're using for these apps?
Speaker 2 (12m 29s): Sure. So I do actually have a, a kit list. It was a Google sheet. So I can put that in there, but just to sort of run through some of the things that use. I mean, because, because the link in the Alps, especially in, you're not in the middle of nowhere, there's always places you can find shelter. If the weather is terrible, you know, I haven't gone for a particularly expensive 10 to 12 far from it.
And it depends. I use the tent now rather than the top or a bivvy bag. It's, it's one called a three S ultralight. And I can't remember the model name, but yeah, it is like 60 quid from on alley express. It's just a single, single skin with you is one of the walking poles as a, as the main sort of central pole. But it's, it's fine. I mean, I'm six foot, four ish, six to three and I can fit in it. So yeah, that, that, that does the job on it.
It's waterproof, which has, you know, what, what do you want it for you? You wouldn't want it to spend all day. And then of course, but yeah, so it's not, you know, it's not like, you know, if I was doing a trip, like one of yours, the Alaskan, when you want something a bit better, for sure.
Speaker 3 (13m 52s): Yeah. I always, it it's, it's, it's interesting. Cause I I've gotten a lot of comments over the years, both from the Rockies one in the, in the Alaska one. Why are you guys carrying so much gear and it looks so heavy and you could have done this and you could have done this. And my feeling around bivvy is that we're not racing. You know, it's, it's not the XL, you know, I've, I've, I've put to get, put all this energy and to putting together this trip, I'm not trying to make it end. I want to be out there.
It's like you say, you're not, I'm never trying to crunch kilometers on baby. I mean a clue, you don't know if you're handed, you have your gift wrap to a beautiful day that take advantage of it, go for it. But you know, to me, it's about The, you know, I love the camping and the tramping and the, you know, just watching the sunsets. I'm not in a hurry. And so, and then the flip side of that is I also, I want to eat really well and I want to be super comfortable in, I want a tent that I can sit up in and listen to podcasts and write in my journal. And I just, I guess I find that it's better to put a little bit more effort in to be in fit.
And you know, like I like my little espresso maker. I love that stuff because you've got all this time, you know, if, if you wake up in the morning and you're just like, Oh, we just got to go, well then, you know, of course your, you can go a lot lighter, but you can go X out style for sure. But I don't know. I'm not, I've never in a hurry and I don't, I just don't mind carrying the extra weight. And then if you carry the extra weight, you need better food, you know, you're you're, I often find you are a little bit sleep compromised. And so, you know, food and being comfortable helps.
Speaker 2 (15m 33s): Yeah. You know, you're right there. I mean, I, I, the most expensive bit of my kit is thee is a sleeping it's the mattress, the air mattress a bed. And so I've got a certain arrest, you know, which, yeah, she's really good. It's nice and warm. And it does the trick. And for the first, well, up until this year, I just used my glider to sleep on the eye.
And then I was, we had this discussion with some friends about, you know, the pros and cons of sleeping bag versus a quilt versus, you know, the person who is under the sleeping under your wing. And this year I, I, I sacrificed talking about coffee, coffee makers. I ditched my little espresso machine, a mental block of thing. And instead use the white to a boss, a quilt, a down quilt.
And that was, that was really nice and comfortable. I actually, that was perfect. You know, I don't like the feeling of being zipped up in a, in a tight sleeping bag, but a quilt was just a, what worked really well.
Speaker 3 (16m 48s): Oh, interesting. So what, what I do is I have a really good sleeping bag and now if it's a summer bivvy, then I can go to a much warmer bag by that. I mean, a warmer rated bag, you know, and down, but I have the, I have a down bag that is like zero degree bag for, you know, for something like Alaska. But then when I add to that, and again, this is the extra weight, but I just have a silk liner, you know, it was like a little mini it's like another sleeping bag. And then, you know, cause if you're going for days and days and days, you're kind of gross and yeah, and that just keeps your bag nicer.
And it's also just really comfy, you know, its kind of, so that's what, that's a little bit on the plush and a things, but a quick, it's a good idea. I hadn't thought about that. That's a great idea. I mean this whole late, you know, sleep in your wings, socks or sleeping, what I do with it, you're totally right about the pad and you got to have a pad. And what I do is put the pad, I put, I still put the wing underneath the pad, you know, so it kind of a thin little pad and then it's just extra, you know, but then it's not making the noise and it's just a little bit extra cushion.
I'm getting old. I need a cushion for you
Speaker 2 (17m 52s): Tried to put in the wing under it. I know, I know a friend of mine did it on one of the trips, but it seems like actually sleepy on top of your wing is going to be squashing it and you, you, you know, turning over three to four times or an hour, which I seem to do, you probably going to end up trashing it. So yeah, I haven't done that. What, what else
Speaker 3 (18m 15s): Are you guys cook a lot or you, hi, how are you handling your food? Does that that's always a big kind of Achilles heel for folks it's yeah, that, that part's that's a tricky cause food is heavy.
Speaker 2 (18m 26s): Yeah. I carried about this, this most recent trip, I think about seven or eight days worth of food, which was a bit overkill. Really. I, I had a few, you know, quite few packets left. And so I had those, you know, you know those, once you open the packet and you pour in boiling water, I think the one I, the brand I've got is called adventure foods and you know, it's, it's fine. It's fine is more than fine. It is. It's so convenient.
This is no washing out to do, which you don't wanna waste water is just pull it out and wait eight minutes, stir it up and eat it. It basically stood it up before you wait the eight minutes and it is a surprisingly nourishing food. So that was the sort of evening meal breakfast. I had a tip from Greg Hamilton, The pro Nutra sort of South African protein cereal. He recommended and yeah, I sort of premixed portions of that with a bit of milk powder, put into individual little plastic bags and carry about, well, you know, one of those for breakfast and you know, a few spare ones just as, you know, extra, extra food if I needed it.
And the only, the only trouble with them is that, well, my wife, the kids were a totally winding me up the very first time I did it because it looked very suspicious packets of the Brown stuff. Are you going to go through the customer through the pasta, a sniffer dog that I'd recommend that stuff, you know, you get, but not in a flavor, you get chocolate flavor and it's very easy and you know, worked out super cheap for just a, a, a, a breakfast.
Speaker 3 (20m 22s): Yeah. You know what I started doing this seem to work pretty well is I would just take a Ziploc with a powdered milk and mix it in a bunch of Brown sugar. And that would be my, you know, that would be for my cereal or for my coffee. You know, if you like sweetened coffee, which you usually, I just do cream or something, but that was kind of a nice way to get rid of the bag. And then just have one thing, you know, a little bit more calories, a little more glucose, which is good. Yeah. And then I changed my coffee from a, you, you know, when you just do the pour over coffee through a, through a paper filter, and then you have the paper filter that this is just a permanent one of those, it's just a metal mesh one, you know?
So it, it fits down on my pot really perfectly. And I could just put the coffee in there and then I'm not in there. And then there's no trash, there's nothing to burn. You know, it's kind of nice. You just reuse it.
Speaker 2 (21m 11s): Yeah. Yeah. I took some coffee bags and this last time, it didn't, it didn't actually use as many of them as I thought it would, but they would have a great actually quite tasty. But yeah, someone is giving me a little, a little sort of plastic mesh thing that you can just tip coffee into and then dunk that in you're in your, you know, a cup of boiling water, just like a teabag. So I'll, I'll give that a go because actually those, those coffee bags are quite expensive.
Speaker 3 (21m 41s): So this is for this first one, you did it in, in 2018. Where did you start and where did you end and what were kind of the, what are the highlights?
Speaker 2 (21m 49s): Oh, well it was basically from a cold, a blind eye started. And then when I met with Nigel on the route, I mean that first day was just, just ridiculous. Really. I left home. It was something like three o'clock in the morning. I live in boss in the UK, call it a flight from Bristol airport, which is about an hours drive away to nice. So arrived at Nissan at about 10 30 in the morning.
And I was a friend of mine, Marcus Marcus King. He met me there at least the airport, which is a very kind of him drove me out to call the Blaine. And when you were at told to blame takeoff for a sort of midday by half 12 is in the air heading North. And I met Nigel sorta on the, on the dorm, a loose Ridge, you know, he'd be buying from San Andre and we met up cross over the lack of the set-up on a song together.
And we had the Epic flight where we landed high above the ski resort of OCS. And so it's just, you know, how could that be possible to the home at three o'clock in the morning? And then that evening you can't bring on a French mountain top. It was just incredible, you know, especially after an ethic flight, you know, 120 kilometers or something, I think it was just amazing
Speaker 3 (23m 19s): In that zone. I mean, to describe it for those who haven't flown on it, because I've just got the hugest green on my face ever. It is, I've spent quite a bit of time to down in that. And you know, in the Maritimes is just Epic down there. Describe kind of what you're, what the scenery is like is that I think people don't understand how big it is.
Speaker 2 (23m 37s): Yeah. I mean, it's not as big as you know, that the Alps further North, the Northern Alps, but they're still plenty, a great big mountain. What you see in the UK clearly, you know, by the tiny, by the time you work your way up the Dorma is, you know, you've gone past some pretty, pretty big peaks. You've gone past the Tek on a strop, which is what an offhand, but it must be around about 3000 meters.
And then the train up to there, it's all pretty Rocky and rugged and you got some serious boonies once you go. You know, when, you know, once you've gone for a 20 K North of Saint Andre, you're in a row you've got about, I would say another 20 K a pretty Boonie countryside and you get on to the dorm, a loose Ridge. And then you've got the lack of the fat. Paul saw a, which is beautiful.
You know, by the time you get there, it's in the afternoon, you've got the sun sparkling on the water and the bright blue waters and the other side of the Lake, you've got the acronyms, which I've got some very big peaks. You don't have to 4,000 meters, you know, it is pretty mind blowing really spectacular. No, this was a, it, it would have been that this, this trip was early July, actually 2018.
Yeah. I think it was the first might've been in the first week of June.
Speaker 3 (25m 13s): Where are you dealing with Mitch where you dealing with much Valley wind then? Or was it was, it was a pretty good,
Speaker 2 (25m 21s): Well, it just depends where you are ready that the flight from, you know, San Andre to the dorm alone is not really Valley wins to contend with, you know, trains is a bit more sort of, how should we say a bit more random. It is not particularly organized when you go, but when you, when you get to cross the Lake, you get quite a strong westerly
Speaker 3 (25m 53s): And rock up to Bree on sewn and all that zone and this guy.
Speaker 2 (25m 56s): Yeah. And up for the brownstone value, you go quite a strong value when I'm told. So yeah. It in places for sure it is windy and, but it's the obvious place is where you, where you have the value is leading into that, the higher mountains on that trip. We, the next day we, we flew sort of, we took the roundabout route out towards Grenoble rather than sort of it, you know, that deep, what we call it, a tiger line, you know, straight North through the echo.
And that's a dream and for another year, maybe no. Yeah. But yeah, it was sort of a traditional route. And then the second night we just, our July camps, well, we got a place, it was, we'd done 60 kilometers or something. And we, the weather was, there was some big clouds building and we just flew over this beautiful spot that the it's called Taylor is a massive to tailor for it. And it's sort of, not far from Grenoble really is you got this, you fly over these sort of peaks.
And then you've got the plateau dotted with a little lakes and it was just magnificent. So we decided, you know, call it a day after sort of 60 K and I had a beautiful spot to go to land, write by the Lake. And the first, the very first thing I did, I got up, I let it, you know, 50 yards from the Lake, I suppose a lot. It dumped everything and I'd had an accident with a pee tube and it just completely, Totally pissed on the trousers.
And so, yeah, just dive straight in The in the Lake, it was a beautiful, fantastic. So yeah. So the source of that, there is a little, a little challenges, shall we say, and then, you know, re hold on for the business of pitching the tent and folding up the glider and stuff like that. But yeah, it a what a perfect spot that was really nice.
Speaker 3 (28m 8s): And what was the, well, I'll let you keep going the rest of it, but just before you keep going on with the rest of this trip, what was the style of it? You know, what, what, what did you and Nigel agreed to beforehand? Was there a, you know, you're staying together no matter what are you going as far as you can, or did you have, like when you wake up in the morning, did you have an objective or did you just thought let's just go flying.
Speaker 2 (28m 34s): We had originally sort of a plan to try and, you know, get to Chamonix and maybe further into Switzerland, but actually after on day two on that, on that flight, we, we completely changed our plan because the weather for the North was looking unsettled. So we ended up sort of doing it as a triangle around the outside of the acronyms. The next day we flew over towards a brownstone. And in fact, we landed in brownstone on it then the following day, and we flew back down that Andre.
So that was the shortest trip. So we were, we were, we had no fixed objective each, you know, we prepared to change, change plans in the air and change plans from day to day. You know, that's a great thing. You just go with the flow, really. I think, you know, if you've, if you set out to do a, a trip to fight the whole link for the Alps and you realize it, whether that was really pretty poor for the North, then you could have a, you know, sort of a brilliant, weak flying around the Akron's, you know, the outsmart team.
It was plenty to fill your boots there.
Speaker 3 (29m 47s): Yeah. How did you guys, th how did you guys meet in the air that first day? I was like, Oh, well actually let me rewind. Did you wear these dates? Just set, you're going to, no matter what to niece or is that the kind of thing, because you're in the UK, you can just pull the pole, whether it looks good, lets go.
Speaker 2 (30m 4s): Why you could do that. But we, you know, most times you do, you have to sort of pick a, you know, and just sort of stick with it unless, unless it's really, really poor. And in fact, I need to go back to how we met and yeah, but that brings me on to sort of this year's trip where there was eight of us who met up in the front Andre. And when we met up on the sundae, this is sort of end of July this time.
And the forecast really wasn't that great. You know, the first two days down in the outline, our team of four comes to be pretty windy and then unsettled further North and we were having these discussions, how do we go? Why don't we go? I think if I've been on my own, I probably would have bailed on it. But actually when we were the first day of flying Monday, we had a fantastic day flying a hundred K North second day.
It was great to, so you just got to be, it just goes to show really you've got to, you got to be there. So it would be in it to win it. I think it was what they say. You know,
Speaker 3 (31m 16s): You know what I mean? I think there's also a, there's a lot to be said for kind of, I call this the nickname in this approach, you know, you didn't need, as Bibi's all over the world, you know, it, it doesn't have to be, it can be a long ways from banger. You know, you can get a little 10 K glide over morning glory in the morning and that's your flying day and it's Epic, you know, you're out, you're basically, you've just taken a flight. You probably never would have as an experienced pilot. Cause it's not that good. It's not a day to go flying, but it's totally safe.
And it's really, really, really pretty and to get to spend a day in the mountains, you know? And so you, yes, you can do a lot with baby. That's what I love about it so much.
Speaker 2 (31m 57s): Yeah. I mean, exactly. So what have you do some sort of adventure, isn't it? You know, if the flying is, is fantastic and yeah, it'll be pretty upsetting to, to spend a week and just get, you know, pancake glides in every day, wrongly, any sort of proper cross-country flights, but you know, I'm sure if that did happen, you still have fun. It's still be a memorable trip. So yeah, it's, it's more, it's more than that. Just about the flying, it's the people that you meet on the way, the places you see the whole, it sort of the whole experience.
Just going back to a, sort of a, how we met. I met up with Nigel in the site, pretty simple, really. He was using, I mean, I could see him, I used to play sky high as my sort of instrument of choice on my phone. And so that, that will display your friends live track, neither was using, he don't use it. I find he uses he was using actually tracks, but yeah, you had another, a lot of track, 24 app on his phone.
So I could basically see him on my phone and then, you know, I knew where he was. I could see him. Yeah, we did. We did, you know, we did when we got closer. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33m 21s): Yeah. It's what it worked fine. It was, it, it was really good to hear. I mean, plus I think I probably, you know, messaged him, you know, kilogram whilst I was in the essay and you know, I've taken off or something. Yeah. So he would've got that as well.
Speaker 3 (33m 37s): Let let's, let's let's pause on this real quickly. What are you, what, what have you got with you electronically?
Speaker 2 (33m 43s): Yeah. So, I mean, they've got the cameras and that sort of stuff to go pro is what I have this year. I've previously I've had a, you know, a cheap Chinese equivalent, which actually was more reliable. I should say.
Speaker 3 (33m 59s): You get a Garmin they're so much better. I don't have to have to plug them. The other verb is the GoPro. Yeah. It's really nice.
Speaker 2 (34m 7s): Oh, well, I've got to make The I've got to make this go pro investment last a little bit. So yeah, I've got that radio this year. I bought that, you know, the little stand for the charging stands for the radio in a little, a step up transformer cable, or to make it work on a USB because you know, it's not a USB radio a few years older, but in terms of yeah.
Instruments and you know, flight deck, I had the, I've got the Garmin Emery enrich mini. So that's really nice to have to have that and to have the tracking on I've got a very, I had a, actually a tracer to, Flom just a bit of reassurance to know that all those sales sell planes is buzzing around you than in the Alps. They're going to, I'm going to see, you know, you there and yeah, just my phone and a battery in the course phone running a 5k.
Hi. Oh, well. And to charge it all and anchor solar power pack.
Speaker 3 (35m 21s): How, how big is the, do you know the wattage of the solar panel?
Speaker 2 (35m 25s): Yeah. 15 Watts. Pretty good size. Okay. Yeah. It's got two, two panels actually, the way I did it, w I've got to go to the anchor 10,000 million batteries. So it do, you know, they both start it off fully charged after the first day one is getting low. So the next day I'll charge up that one whilst I'm flying and use the fresh one on my flight deck.
Speaker 3 (35m 52s): Where do you hang the panel when you were flying? Right?
Speaker 2 (35m 55s): Yes. I had to, I had to do it a bit of a experimentation to get this working properly, but yeah, it is tied on to basically no, not the sole carabiners, but yeah. Close to the Caribbean as, and then I have it folded out on my legs, but I tried it once in the UK before the fall, the trip and it, every time I put the speed bar on it, every time you went a little bit faster to just blow up in my face.
So I ended up putting in a little bit of a Lastic round. So, you know, from the, the bottom corners of it, around my legs, around the pod, just to keep it in place. And that worked really well. Obviously you got to be extra careful when you're setting up ready that you haven't got any lines caught in this bit of a plastic, but that worked really well. So I've got the I've, I've got the Omega XL three, two liner, and I've got the, a lightness three.
Yeah. And it's a fantastic combination really well. I got my, I got the XL three last summer. So summer 2019, it arrived two days before my plans, you know, Vol boom in 2019, it was because I had to Oxford to exhales to which has a three liner. That's going to say the one I know we'll do it. I'll take the, the, you know, the brand new two liner.
Luckily I had it and I'll slice on it on my local site. I'm on the day before it was due to fly out and having had that hours flight, I felt right. You know, you got to go to take the new one. And I spoke to Greg Hamilton as well. He also had one and he said, yeah, you got to take the new one. So yeah, that was a great decision.
Speaker 3 (37m 57s): Is it his advice when I add him on the show was that when you're going bivvy or going light, so either one you should step down in, you should go up. You know, if your, if your, if you're normally flying on a two liner, E and D it's probably the best to go down and do a, an EMC, you know, maybe even in a high end D and C are better or a mid-level D and C or something for when you are going light, either a light gear, or if you're going bivvy. Do you, do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (38m 26s): I think is a general rule. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty sensible because it's not all about flying, you know, whether you do 90, a hundred K or, you know, if you, if you had a, a two-night or you, you might do a little bit further, but it doesn't, it's not that important. You're not racing anyone. It's, it's just the, the views and the experience that you're after. But I mean, not everyone has the luxury of having two wings, you know, a special, like a lightweight when I've just got the one glider and I've only ever, I've only ever had one glider at a time.
So you take what you got, basically for me, you know, I've been flying 13 years and I've gone from the Oxford one to the two, and now the three, you know, going from it a three-line a D to a two live on a date, you know, it was, no, you didn't feel like a, a, a, a step up in there, you know, in, in how it handles in difficulty or anything like that. It was, if anything, it's sort of easier to fly. So, yeah, I think it's a, for me, it's a, it's a lovely winter on a boat.
Yeah. I mean, for sure if I'd had something like a, you know, to, to, to the, the CSI and I, I should, I shouldn't mention that I didn't do this in my sort of bio at the beginning, but I've been an advance ambassador and advance XC cereal team pilot for a while, since 2014. And so I'm like advanced kit, but that's enough of that sort of plugging, but yes, I would have had just as much fun on a biopsy or a, you know, any other sort of light-weight weighing really, but for me it happened, it was lovely, especially in such a light form factor.
Speaker 3 (40m 18s): Yeah. The lightness is, does that have a carbon seat board or is it just a hammock?
Speaker 2 (40m 23s): Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40m 24s): And any, anything you want to say about that, you know, 30 years of flying, you know, imagine you spend most of the time flying a seat board is, was there much adjustment? Was there much getting used to it? And the pluses minuses?
Speaker 2 (40m 40s): Actually, my, my prior to the night in Australia, Adeline is to, which is also a hammock one. And prior to that, I had a, a impressed three, which has also has one. So I ha I hadn't had a seat board since my impressed to, which is quite a long time ago. So the, the very first time it went in the, in press three, yes, it was quite taken aback about how much feedback I gave you, but the designs of The in the lightness range.
So, you know, the, the three is more what you say, roll stable, I guess, you know, it wasn't the two, but even though, you know, the two is fine. So I, I, I posted like the comfort of just having the hammock just feel I need, I don't feel as a seatbelt. Give me, give me any more. I'm quite happy with that. How much is it? It is.
Speaker 3 (41m 37s): And how do you, how do you pack it? Is that, you know, cause when I see, I'm trying to remember what I had in there. I had the delight too, I believe, but I had, you know, it has a pad. And so I had to remove to make space. I, I remove the back pad actually, you know, you know, it was one, one system. So I had no pad. It was, you know, how would I was real careful about how I put everything in, in terms of the sleeping bag in the sleeping pad and or my, but you know, it was tried to get most of the soft stuff under my butt, but it, what do you is that lightness is to have plenty of space?
Is it an airbag or can you just pack around it or do you have to remove stuff?
Speaker 2 (42m 16s): So there is a massive compartment right underneath the seat, which is when you're just doing normal XC flight, whatever it is, its got this big, a foam cushion. And so once I realized how easy it was to take that out, you know, in that compartment, I could put my tent, Mike sleeping, quilts, my mattress, a a, a pawn show and a couple of other things as well.
So, you know, it's all, all a nice soft stuff so that it probably gives you, you know, as good as a protection that was in there anyway. So yeah, so that gets rid of all that sort of soft, bulky stuff, food and the source of food is quite heavy, but I got most of that in the sort of balanced compartment, which was, you know, which is underneath you have your legs it front of the pot and that left in the back compartment.
So on the line has three actually has got two, it's got the, it's kind of a foam layer. Then it's got fast tech and sort of slightly harder, more plastic-y more rigid protection. So it took that back, lots of it out a bit, it get out and let the foam in the, and then you shoved everything else in there. So yeah, that was it. Sufficient storage, you know, you said there was not, you know, there's probably harnesses a better suited for, you know, a lot of doing longer Vol bibs for sure.
But for, you know, week, 10 days, two weeks. Yeah. And the lightness as well, a pretty much identical brilliant in terms of the capacity. I think it just got to a standard one that comes, comes with the, with the lightness and that, that's a pretty good, it's got my side pockets and I, so the 90 Lisa one
Speaker 3 (44m 27s): 90 liter. Okay. And that's plenty of space for your seven days of food. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44m 33s): I mean, sufficient, everything has to be packed in pretty well. Yeah. If you can just Chuck it in. And if I, when I get a good scope flying normally in the UK, like flying just a couple of days ago for a little hours software, and I was thinking, how, how do I get all that for a whole bunch of stuff in this that doesn't seem to be much spare space in it, but once you actually pack it carefully and you know, you've, you've taken out some of the padding and you know, it all fits in fine.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45m 8s): And are you guys utilizing, you know, grocery stores, huts, are you ever trying to top land and spend a night in luxury or has it all just kind of yeah.
Speaker 2 (45m 19s): Preference really? It is the preference is landing high and a sleeping on the mountain top for me. I mean, that was a, you know, that that's, what's the whole experience is about really, I like on this this year is a trip one of the best days for me, actually it was a w I mean, it was not the day. I mean, I had an amazing flight on one day all the way from , but then I landed, I landed lo on that flight, you know, landed in goal that the Belgians on the landing Hill.
And then I had to find some way to go to camp in a sort of, you know, slightly built up environment after a bit. I did find quite a nice place, but it, it wasn't the same. The next day I was expecting to have to do a lot of hiking because the weather forecast didn't seem that great, but actually I did start hiking. What about half an hour? Then the sun started coming out a little. This is, this is mad. So I turned around and actually, you know, court, the guns that are up to the take off it, more new era, I think it's called, I've been the zona and ended up having a wicked, you know, a a hundred K flight.
And I, I landed on this on a plateau, had a hour's hike up to where it was called Monte Padre, just on my own up there, beautiful views all around a few goats knocking around with like a sort of goat bells tinkling in a way that's the essence of it to me so that they, yeah, I had a fantastic flying, but the whole, the whole day was, it was probably the best day, just because of the beauty of where you end up, you know, camping.
Speaker 3 (47m 7s): So when I get to hear about your flight from verbiage to bell and zona, cause that's exactly the opposite of my best day in the 2015 race that really put us back into it. And, you know, 18th, the eighth that day, I, when I started in Belmar zona and I actually hiked, it was really stable. We had a really brutal and version. So a hike, I don't know, another thousand above more in a year, you know, from this firm that night we were kind of in bell and zona. And so hiked up above way above that morning air launch up on those big mountains of behind you and then flew to Verbier a, you know, that was back when the matter horn was a turning point.
So through that zone and then stayed really super tall and kind of floated in a Verbier later that evening. And it was a really strong headwind all day. So it was, that was an exceptional a day, but what, what was your, what was your route going the other way?
Speaker 2 (47m 58s): I mean, that sounds awesome flight. You described that.
Speaker 3 (48m 1s): It just, it was unbelievable because in most of the, you know, when I got into the Zermatt Valley and was pressing up into, I mean, it was a really windy day. This was not a wreck. And that was a day that, you know, pond and the Korean both flew in wave, the Korean got up to like 5,000 meters in and was flying wave. And you know, it, it was, it was a strong headwind. So you were flying in the li all day and just kind of pressing and then taking your hits and pressing. And, and, but when I got in the Vermont Valley, everybody that it, it was in front of me, you know, from bell and zona base.
And I just cut the corner and went straight through that kind of it. And you know, that there's the big C that goes up to the Rolo and in the Newfoundland. And I just went straight across all that stuff. Just, I, I just, I've got to take some risk here where there's no way we're going to get to Monaco. So knowing that if I bombed out and risking my race was over, but, you know, so it just went straight and then suddenly ended up kind of between the simple on pass in the Newfoundland pass. And it suddenly recognized where I was. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm, you know, one more move and I'm in the doormat Valley. Oh, you go, you know, and I got in this Valley and there was, you know, there's Google Bauer.
No, it wasn't Gushi Bauer who was a Ferdinand. And you know, all these guys that have been were way ahead of me that morning and that really caught up, it really caught up and almost everyone went up and tagged the matter horn and then came back down. Those are mat Valley to cross the road and get on the other side and keep going. And they, but my, my supporter, Bruce just kept sending me messages as they were watching me going in there. Like, don't come back down here. You know, the Valley winds were cranking up from, you know, from the West and I just stayed high. I got a big tall clime over the, the glacier.
And it just bumbled across the top of the, you know, above you on the CRM side. I mean, the, you know, the South side of the road, but you know, you just need to kinda take a beating on each one of those fins. And then eventually I logged into verbiage, which has kind of where it, one of the places that I learned in the Alps, you know, years and years ago. So that was very special, you know, late in the day is looking down, Oh, I know this place.
Speaker 2 (50m 1s): Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Well, I mean the, the line we took Chris and I with, I made Chris Ashdown. We we'd spent, well, I'd spent a couple of nights in verbiage, but the day before it had been pretty rubbish weather. And actually, you know, my, my Vol, Bibbs a not so pure, pure is a knot, not necessarily camping in, you know, camping every night. If there's a, if there's a, if I remembered those a, a, an apartment that my, my brother's wife's family owned in verbiage, I'm going to, I am going to use it.
And I did. So I pitched that there for a couple of nights, then that the, the day of the flight, we, Chris and I, we hyped up for the takeoff as a quite decent Hyatt. You know, it was like three hours. I didn't know how many meters vertical, I mean, you do it half the time. Gavin, but for us it was a good old hike, but yeah, so we met these couple of Swiss pilots upon takeoff, and they, in fact, I suggested flying to bed and zona so that we thought that why not?
It, it, it was a, it seemed like a sensible plan because the forecast for the next few days was, was windy in a Western and Northern Switzerland. So getting down to South and using that as an entry into Italy sounded like a good plan. So, yeah, we, we just, we, we hopped over the sea on Valley from Verbier at the first mover we took off about midday and then just pretty straightforward sort of route all the way up to fish.
And we hopped South over the road in the Valley, just pass a fish and over, I can't remember the name of the past. Yes, it is the New Zealand. I don't know. How do you say that? And, you know,
Speaker 3 (51m 59s): I don't know if I'm saying it right either, but Newfoundland, I call it the Newfoundland. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52m 3s): Okay. Okay. And that takes you into the railroad a Valley. Yup. And so, yeah. Is that, that going over the past was, it was spectacular. Some high peaks. Yeah, it was lovely. It was a question we didn't quite know. I mean, I was, Chris was a few K behind me at this point. I was just on my own in a, quite where to go, you know, there wasn't much work in there and it wasn't actually, until I got into the role of Bali that started finding good climbs again, and yeah. Just follow the, the Valley down and, you know, after seven to three quarter hours.
So I was in bands.
Speaker 3 (52m 39s): I
Speaker 2 (52m 41s): Couldn't believe it. I flight in the Alps. So the longest in the air and just sat down in the landing field, just go, wow. It was incredible. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52m 54s): That, that's a special feeling that way.
Speaker 2 (52m 57s): But the thing is that I was happy to, you know, I'm happy to learn that because I don't think the full cost is that good for the next day. And I thought, I'd just get a bit of sightseeing around in bed and zoner, but actually, you know, that whole business has been in a sort of more built up area of town telling your rucksack around 20, 20 or 23 kilos, everything came to it. It's quite difficult, really. So, you know, I don't know what, how did it, well, I ended up not even thinking about it, such that, you know, it was going to go out and hike.
And then I turn around, you know, my plan has changed and I got the gun, threw it off and then had that really nice flight. But it's always difficult when you've, if you end up low down and you're, you're in a town a lot later on that trip, I ended up in the beach a term in the evening. I don't know what the hell would do you find somewhere to, you know, pitch a tent in a towel. And so on that occasion, I hiked up a Hill when I started hiking towards the takeoff only a little bit. And I ended up that was the old house.
It was being renovated like a cement mixer in a, in a, I think it was a dig somewhere in some building wastes. And I just sort of taught myself on the side on a bit of grass. So that wasn't very glamorous that much. So you have to tell you the rough for the space.
Speaker 3 (54m 20s): Yeah. And I mean, it's, the style is important to, isn't it? I mean, there's, there's, there's, the Alps are just so well suited for what we're talking about, but it is nice too. It is nice to avoid that if you can, you know, 'cause, it just, it really takes you out of it. I mean, this is the thing that I can't stand about the ex apps and this isn't a sustainable attitude because obviously you want to get to Monica, that's the point, but getting to Monaco and The in 2018, you know, you, you just had this year in the mountains, proper Alps, and it was just so beautiful and so spectacular and all these fun, little villages and huts and peaks, and then you get to Monica.
It just doesn't, it doesn't add up. It it's really a disoriented, you know what I mean? And you're just in this concrete jungle, so yeah. And I'm still, if you can, if you can bypass places like bell and zone and all the better. And that takes me to the question, which is how important is top landing. And let's, let's talk about skills a little bit because I do feel like yeah. Skills and whether I want to ask you to kind of how you also, you know, navigate and deal with, with whether, you know, you, you just get it on your phone and that kinda thing.
So I'm asking you many questions here, but talking about all of that, is this all going to talk about the skill side a little bit?
Speaker 2 (55m 37s): Yeah, well we last year, Oh, sorry. This year, last trip, we sort of opened it up to try and encourage, you know, people like I was a few years ago, I, and to be giving it a little bit of a go, but I'm quite plucked up the courage to do it, you know, to give them a chance to do it in as part of a group. So you do need to have flown in, in, in developed in, in, in the mountains, you know, you've got to have a lot more than just a parsing understanding of body wins and you know, the weather conditions in the Alps, because, you know, it's not just like going off on a downwind cross country in the UK, too, where you can just land anywhere.
You, you, you've gotta be aware of your surroundings, aware of the terrain and aware of what the winds is doing. And I, you know, I've got it wrong in a couple of times, floating into places where in hindsight pretty stupid, but yeah, we all, we all make mistakes.
Speaker 3 (56m 52s): Yeah. That's almost unavoidable really. I mean that, that's, that's, that's definitely something you should know before you start. And you're gonna, if you could do it a bivvy, you're going to most likely get into a position where you're, you're not that psyched with.
Speaker 2 (57m 6s): Yeah. But I mean, one, one guy on a trip a couple of years ago, he had flown some good distances out in a bit. I think it was, but it didn't really prepare him for the complexity of the Alps. So yeah, we wouldn't want anyone coming on on, on the trip. We've, you know, he is not floating the Alps before. I may not do some competitions out outlet, you know, the, the, what are the various, a little competition for the, the sharp open, the rain and, you know, get, get a feel for flying in that, in that part of the world is quite a few that is sort of the intermediate level, Tom.
So it will, that will give you a good understanding of what's going on out there. I mean, in terms of skills, flying skills, I mean, like you always say, top landing is the ability to do that is paramount, but there's always, there's always places to go to land it. You don't have to talk land, you can't land down in the beer in the valleys, but I mean, I'm not saying we all need to have Kriegel or Patrick Von candles skills that, you know, a fly on the wall landings.
However, it would be nice to have the, you know, we're not, were not preparing for the excerpts here. How are we? Well, you are, of course, but for us, you know, it's not, it's not that critical just on a, on a regular, the whole bivvy trip. So you, you, you picking sensible places collabs rather than Whoa, there's a postage stamp I need to land on down in the Valley. Bottom is not, we're not quite doing the same thing.
Speaker 3 (58m 54s): I would put out a little listener, just a heads up. It was maybe a PSA here real quick that, you know, I know many of you this evening probably follow Kriegel and in Patrick and a, you know, they have been doing this top landing challenge thing, and it's all just an unreal, it's awesome. What these guys are doing. I've been working really hard at this kinda for the last six months. And I will just put out there that this is super top level. It's not necessary.
You don't need to learn how to top land like that. And, you know, I would just put a warning that this is, this is extremely top level flying that these guys are doing and, and showing in there, they're obviously they're not bragging. They're not putting it out there to try to inspire other people to do it. I don't think. And so don't be too, don't be overly inspired to go learn that. It's an awesome skill. That's great to have in your toolkit, of course, but it's not really necessary to do, you know. Awesome.
Bibi's I had no idea that this even existed for all the big babies that I've done. I'd never seen that, or even thought about it and yeah, just a heads up, you get that timing right. Is really extreme.
Speaker 2 (1h 0m 9s): You're totally right there. I mean it, yeah, I've never needed to do anything like that. So yeah, I mean, in terms of the weather forecasting, you know, we, we use Metro power PowerPoints, which was, I mean, it's, it's, the information is presented in a really nice, easy, understandable way as to whether it's accurate or not. I don't know. One of the, one of the days on this trip, it was focused and really strong winds in the trend.
So Valley and I got there and there was nothing really, and it, it sort of changed, slightly changed. My plans ended up sort of landing when maybe on the edge of landed, I guess you don't want to just use one, one source. We were also looking at soaring Mecho as well. So the more complex, but that gives you a good, a good overview, a few days out looking at thermal quality. What are the ones sometimes?
Yeah, just getting an overview. If the weather, you know, sometimes just whether it's sunny or not is going to be all in all you need. So, you know, max you're a Swiss is, is a good app, is actually that gives you a few wins, you know, actual wind speeds in the valleys, which is nice to know.
Speaker 3 (1h 1m 31s): Yeah. I was going to say, are you checking anything on the fly?
Speaker 2 (1h 1m 35s): Well, yes. Sometimes. Yeah. Like this year I had a flight from San Bowie to, to sort of just pass in the, you know, land, it ended up landing and in the Silicon Valley made it a little bit of a mistake there and in my room, a choice or decision-making at the very end. And so, but before, before I reached that decision point, I had opened up the Metro a Swiss app and I'd checked the, the winds in the CRM.
And I could see that that was like 20 kilometers mass offer. Well, you know, that's fine. If I do end up landing Dan in the Valley, there is going to be manageable and on that bed and zone of flight as well, I was checking the winds as I sort of going down that road in a Valley towards balance up.
Speaker 3 (1h 2m 23s): And what do you use it for that or using the wind alert or Metro Swiss
Speaker 2 (1h 2m 29s): A mattress with? Yeah. I mean, if there's, you know, there wasn't a lot, there's another one that someone told me about. Can't remember what it is offhand, but it may have been a window to look at what is that? I know it mainly Switzerland that has these sort of a Valley.
Speaker 3 (1h 2m 46s): I know I've, I've used them when I'm in Europe, I'm using the, the Metro Swiss a, is it it's really terrific. I mean, I think the point here for those who haven't flown in the Alps is that Valley winds can often be an issue. And they're not an issue if you know about them, cause you just land high on our side land or you just don't, don't, don't subject yourself to him and it, and it's no problem. So it's, I think it's a good thing to be observing if you can. And that's a whole nother skill level, you know, checking your phone and tapping into all of this kind of stuff, but that having some of that tech really helps.
And like you said, I mean it, in terms of the accuracy or a non accuracy, you know, in 2015, we did it on the fly. You know, my buddy, Bruce did all the weather in 2017 and 2019. We had an actual weather pro who was supporting a couple other pilots. He has in every race since the beginning, since 2003. And he's a proper, you know, medio France, he's a pilot and a Metro France weather forecaster in, you know, lives in Shawmanee. So he's got the eight screens going in the whole thing.
And this isn't a knock against him whatsoever, but you know, he, he provides valuable information, but the accuracy of it is, is, is not a much better than what you get from the apps really. I mean, it is, and it's often just not accurate. I mean, what we're dealing with and that, again, it's not a knock on him at all. It, it's more that we're flying in the micro part of our climate, which a lot of the other models just don't pick up, you know, it's, we're being effected by a lot of things at the micro level that the models aren't going to get and often don't get it.
Right. So you kind of, like you said, you got to kind of got to go to the mall.
Speaker 2 (1h 4m 40s): Yeah, yeah. A lot of it is just observation of what's actually happening in the air around you, you know? And, and on the horizon, one thing I learned slightly to my, to my cost last year in 2019, I ended up on that or not bivvy trip and up in the map and I'd flown home that day.
Oh, you just knit fish actually. Yeah. W so I'd taken off it The. Yeah. And actually it was a, it wasn't the, you know, it wasn't the best of conditions, so we didn't get Oh yeah. When we went over the past, that's right at the, yeah. Over the past, and then got to add to that. And there was a couple of a wind mills, a wind turbine on the Hill to the North end on the map. And that I was trying to, as I was approaching them, looking for a sandwich where they were turning round and I was trying to work out well, like going, they were actually going anti-clockwise, but I was just trying to work out.
Can you tell without knowing which way they turn, wherever the wind, whether that facing into the wind or not, you know, relative to U and I, because the previous year I'd done a similar flight from fish and had sought up that, that south-facing slope underneath these turbines, like sort of convinced myself that's what the wind was doing rather than the wind normally comes a hit on the map that comes from the North there.
And anyway, so these, these, when I last year, then I ended up getting to a bit of a rush. So it just by these turbines, well, not just buy them and you know, what a way for them, but in that vicinity, the wind was clearly coming from the North. And I sort of convinced myself on par based on past experience that it was probably going to be working that it's a South facing slope. And those turbines must be just reflecting the, the animatic, wind blown up the float and a yes, a bit of a roadshow.
And I thought that was the end of the sort of eight days I thought, okay, I'll just, I'll just go to Latin out.
Speaker 3 (1h 7m 3s): You know,
Speaker 2 (1h 7m 5s): I had a good run of it, but there is a rule because wind turbines do always rotate clockwise when they are facing into the wind, sort of if you're viewing it from, in front of them as it were. So to try and summarize that if, if you're looking at a wind turbine and it's going around clockwise, then the wind is blowing from you towards it. And if I just know that simple rule, I would have, I would have known not to go into that little area.
They all turn it clockwise. When, when, you know, when facing into the wind, when he, when you look at them from in front.
Speaker 3 (1h 7m 49s): So yeah, because they don't swivel. Right. So what you're saying is if there, if there is a,
Speaker 2 (1h 7m 52s): Oh yeah, I know they do swivel, but they only go around one way.
Speaker 3 (1h 7m 57s): Ah, okay. Okay. Okay. And I'm not I'm with you. Yeah. Cause we were, boy, we were dealing with a lot of wind turbines down in Texas and there, there, there, there was a pucker factor there for sure. They're big. And they look like the gold is so slow, but the tips are going on at something like hundred and five miles an hour, 105 miles, they're going really fast and they're moving. You don't want to play with those things.
Speaker 2 (1h 8m 21s): No, no. I mean, this is the whole people that are discussed about, you know, what the turbines like behind them, but I sort of think it's not quite as bad as your thing. Cause it is not pushing it out. It's actually, you know, moving energy from the air, isn't it? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (1h 8m 35s): Yeah. I just don't know that we want to drop ourselves into there and find out
Speaker 2 (1h 8m 41s): I know that a choice, but they are often good trigger points.
Speaker 3 (1h 8m 43s): Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Now they say to me quite a few times in Texas, but then they didn't sometimes do it when you were like, Oh, I get to a road. So what's what are, what does it take me back to that first big trip you did with Nigel when you got done? What were the things you put in your notebook? Okay. Well, we got to do that differently next time in gear or food or a route or anything.
Speaker 2 (1h 9m 10s): I think I sort of refined gear a little bit, but you're always sort of doing that, but I know it's a route again, you know, we didn't have a set route in mind that we would sort of flexible, you know, for the, for the, did a trip to the following year. And I think I pretty much everything I took, what was the same as the previous year? I think this something we sort of find out on this year's trip, we found ourselves off.
Even the, after the day one is split up into sort of three, three pairs of a two. And that was all, that was all fine because we all had company. But then at the end of the second day, I had a fantastic flight landed in UC when Chris was, Oh, I don't know, maybe 40 minutes behind me. I didn't know where he was. I wasn't seeing him on live track. He didn't know where I was a radios.
Weren't really working. Cause I was now gone in the Valley. I did, I did hear him just as I was coming in to the land that usually it, but it wasn't in a position to reply and it ended up, he, he went up and different valleys. He, you know, flew by at the same distance he had, he had, we been in touch, we would have, he could have, you know, landed with me and we would have had a, a night together. And I had a, a pool flight know a couple of days later.
So Thomas in the air is definitely something that I think we could improve on. Definitely live tracking. Everyone needs to have that up and running and working. I know the phloem devices has helped with a sort of shorter range seeing where you are, where your mates up, but that's sort of in it's infancy really? Because apps like fly sky. How you cook at the moment, you can't allocate a name to a Flom ID.
So you can just see the sort of arrow scream. So you don't know who it is, but life, life, track 20 for is probably the way to go. But plus having an alternative, easy to use means of communicating in the air without necessarily relying on radios and other cabin you, you mentioned in, what was it, your recent, what about an app? But you were using it for like two, like a walkie-talkie app
Speaker 3 (1h 11m 41s): Zillow. We use Zello and there's others, but it's, it's basically just turning your phone into a radio.
Speaker 2 (1h 11m 48s): Yeah. I know. You're not going to have internet the whole time, but
Speaker 3 (1h 11m 51s): Yeah. But you know what it does is it stores it so you can, you know, they've got these little, I I've always just used it from the phone, but they've actually got a Bluetooth, a little push a button you can just put on your helmet. So it Bluetooth to your phone and you can, we always just set up a Zillow group before we go flying in. And we, we use that here where we've got 5% of the cell that you do on the app. So, I mean, there are places for sure, like you said, in the apps where you down in the Canyon or something that you don't have to sell, but it, for the most part it's pretty good.
And you can, you just hit that button on the side of your helmet. Like you're hitting a radio and it'll put that message to the group. If you've got it set up that way or work to one person, you know? So if I'm just flying with Ravis or somebody I'll just be Revis and I, and, but the nice thing about it is it also saves it. So if you're not in cell and you just press the button, it will record that in as soon as you are. And they are is obviously a two way thing here, then that person we'll get it. So that that's really nice.
We used it, we use it a lot in the race cause we don't use a radio in the race. It's too much weight. And so that's kind of how we're communicating. I like that a lot more than using, you know, a telegram or WhatsApp, but another thing that we utilize quite a bit when we're flying for a location and that kind of thing, like you said, the fly sky high is great or the, the live track is great, but we'll turn on, you know, just turn on, share your live position for eight hours kind of thing in telegram.
So again, we'll make a telegram group, same as we would with like the Zillow, but it would just make a telegram group with just the pilots we're flying with that day. This is really handy in terms of, for emergency and that kind of thing too. It's it's super helpful. It just makes it quick, but you, and then you can just share your location. Now, the only downside is your burn and a lot of juice, you know? So that's, you got to have your phone connected to an external battery. So I've never used,
Speaker 2 (1h 13m 56s): Are you burning more juice than if you're using it actually track anyway,
Speaker 3 (1h 14m 3s): I've never actually done the, it just seems like it's burning through more of a battery, but do I actually it is it actually, I don't know. You know, I mean, I've always got that. I use that same battery that you do that anchor 10,000 million. It's great. You know, so that'll keep it going all day. No problem. So I don't know if this is a great multi-day solution in a bivvy environment, if you can't charge up your stuff, but that would definitely, I would think it would use more, but those two things you can do in WhatsApp or telegram, we've been using telegram more.
I think telegram is better at that, but then, you know, and of course the big qualification here is how good are you with your hands and using the phone in the air? You know, some people can do it. Like, I mean, Revis can do anything on his phone, in the area. He is amazing and I'm less than that. So, you know, so it depends on how much you like to do stuff in the air, but that can be a really great because you just click on it and you can instantly see where their last ping was, you know, so it may not be live, but it does help. And it's nice to, especially when you land to have kind of all those things going and you can, you know, you can put together the puzzle.
Speaker 2 (1h 15m 13s): Yeah. I mean the UK, we actually has been in a few other countries that are using it. Now we have a thing called XC retrieve, which uses telegram and you have various different retrieved groups, a setup around the country. So we've got one in the Southwest, sort of my area. We've got Wales, we've got sort of a central about Lake district, blah, blah, blah. So when you land your, you drop a pin in there and you can, your next message is a little messy saying packing up, you know, to wherever.
And you put in this sort of hashtag hash map on it. And then if you go to a, a website, CRT dot arrow, then you can see all the pins for, for everyone in the UK on the, on the same map. So you can say, you don't even have to be in the same group as them, but you look on this map or you could say, Oh, you know, Joe blogs, there landed up the road for me, you know, that you can, you can click on his pen and then message him. And then you might want to share a taxi or he might have a retrieved driver and you can sort of share less.
So, yeah. And, and we use that in a bowl bivvy as well for sort of sharing positions once we've landed, but it's not a lot. So you assume that you tend to use in the air, so it will show you, it shows live track 24 positions as well on it and in reach and spots. So it is pretty flexible, but yeah, The just having the sh sharing your life position in telegram, just amongst the little group of people that are flying with, actually that could work quite well.
Yeah. I'm going to check my, try that with some,
Speaker 3 (1h 16m 60s): It works for us quite well. And like I said, that the communications app Zello is I couldn't believe how much we used it and the last race. I mean, it was, it was 99% of our coms. It's, it's unbelievable. It's really, it's really great. And, and it's amazing how well it works here in the West where we have very little cell. I mean, it will still, as soon as you get to you, you got coverage for a minute in a boom, boom, boom. They go back and forth and, you know, it's, it is quite useful because, you know, radios, like you said to me, radios are a must, but you know, I'm not going to carry one on the X Alps.
And there are just there's times and bivvy where it'd be nice to, you know, not carry that brick and, you know, you know, it's another thing to charge another thing, but I mean, I think for a moment, I don't want to discourage people from carrying radios. I think radios are really key, especially when it comes to the emergencies, but yeah, there's, there's other stuff that's, that's, that's valuable, you know, for sure, for sure. If you're not going to carry a radio, you, you ha you got to have an inReach anyway, just period, but then
Speaker 2 (1h 17m 57s): It becomes really, really important
Speaker 3 (1h 17m 59s): That that's that super handy, but, and is this a Tim is, this is like a guided thing. Like, are people paying to go on these or has it just,
Speaker 2 (1h 18m 8s): And this is, this is I just, we just called it the gumball trans out to rally after that gumball trans trans you know, Transamerica film, that sort of a race, this isn't a race, it's just a, an excuse to sort of find some people to go to go bidding with. I mean, we did get split up pretty rapidly and I spent most of that, you know, this last trip on my own, which is fine, but you know, sometimes a bit of a company is quite nice. So yeah, the more the merrier on, on this trip is far as far as were concerned, as long as, you know, you've, you've got all the relevant, relevant experiences, if you haven't then hired a guide with a guide, but it was just an idea is to get more people doing it for free.
Yeah. Yeah. And we've got within the UK, we've set up this Facebook group that UK Vol bivvy pilots, and it started off to like 20 or 30 people. And that is like 350 or almost 400 people in the groups and not all British privates. There's a few, you know, the rest of the world. Yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of interest in it. And you know, from my own experience, you just need it a little bit of a, a push to, to actually give it a go.
That was the idea of, and we're doing another trip this year in 2021,
Speaker 3 (1h 19m 30s): That was going to say it the case. So the next, what, now that you've done these, you did the first one in 2018 to 2019. Did what you did when this year in 2022. So this is what, what, how, what have you refined about timing and, and where, you know, so where, where will you go and what time of the year you decided to is kinda the best is the sweet spot for the next one?
Speaker 2 (1h 19m 53s): Well, we're, we're still, we're still, well, we've got the PA I think what we're going to go in, in July, it will be two weeks of July probably, but basically sometime in mid July, but, you know, we haven't we're to decide whether to, you know, do the similar routes to what we've done before, or you from source like St. Andre, North woods, and then eastwards from Chamonix. You know, that's a, that's a logical root, you know, heading West to East because you got the, the general prevailing wind.
This is from the West. And as you know, it was Northern Alberta, but we quite like the idea of a bit of a change of scenery, maybe potentially starting to Slovenia and go by Austria and then, you know, head head into Switzerland from Australia. So, yeah, we're still, we're still wondering about, about that. Or we started Chamonix and that sort of cuts out that the first two to three days and, and just go head East and Chamonix or, you know, add a CEO or somebody like that.
So yeah.
Speaker 3 (1h 20m 59s): You know, I guess, I guess if you're going kind of July is your starting to orient definitely towards the bigger stuff you're definitely getting into the time of year where you got stability is, can be an issue down on the low land, especially in on the Italian side. So yeah, you're, you're kind of probably wanting to play with the bigger stuff, getting above the inversions.
Speaker 2 (1h 21m 16s): Yeah. That's, I mean, a few years ago, did it a little bit of research looking at flights on X contests, you know, which I'd pick a certain area and just see how many, how many flights over a a hundred K worth of that in each month. Umm, and it seemed like, you know, may and June, let's say you get some absolutely mega days in June, but you get more non-viable days in between the time you get to July, whether, you know, it's a little bit more settled, so the more reliable you don't get such, you know, real five-star days that you can The but you know, the stability can't be an issue a year for sure.
You know, in the Albertville Valley, if you can get quite stable, you know, between Grenoble and Albertville and yeah, like you say, in there in those Italian sort of lakes regions, it can get pretty stable. Yeah. So yeah, next, next year, maybe try and avoid that bit, but you know, you just go with, I go with the flow if you got a few days on windy days. So the North that you sort of progress southward, you know, just,
Speaker 3 (1h 22m 32s): And would you, would you, would you all just, you know, if you've flown into a Venus fly trap area, it just looks terrible for a few days. Would you just get on a train and go somewhere else?
Speaker 2 (1h 22m 43s): Good question. I, I think we probably would do, you know, just like this year, like I ended up getting a couple of bus rides to get from where I landed just to the West of Trento to get across to the vitro termi as it happened, it was pretty stable the next day that, so it didn't die. It made it a few kilometers progress about 40 K that lot, my final day.
But I thought it was slightly kicking myself cause I didn't didn't do enough route planning down in that sort of Southern Dollarmites sort of area. And I should have from the day before I should have made my way more to, is it Bolzano? And then it across into the Dolomites from there, I think it probably would've got some butter, but you know, you live in a learning day.
Speaker 3 (1h 23m 36s): That's the beautiful thing about it. I mean, you mentioned beer, you had that file it that you know, that there's so many places in the world too, where you can do some really neat, I mean, even Columbia they're doing, they're doing some really cool Bibi's in the Vita Kaka, you know, I always go down and just to kneel, you know, and do the same thing every time I go in and yeah, I mean, there there's been lots of really cool stuff being done, then it, you know, and its just, this is just flying up and down that Valley. But you know, there's lots of places to top land and there's, you know, it's cheap and you know, there's, there's places like this all over the world that are really fun, but I, I like that you guys are focusing on the house cause it's it's, you know, I think, I think you learn a lot and it's just so friendly for it.
Isn't it? I mean, you don't, you, you, you don't have to, you don't have to crack yourself. You can take the gondola, you can take the training, take the it's just so easy to get around and, and move pretty quickly. And you know, you can, you can keep it pretty. You can keep it pretty nice.
Speaker 2 (1h 24m 34s): Yeah. We're not all, we're not all hardcore adventures. Like you, you know, Benjamin Jordan, have you seen in the latest,
Speaker 3 (1h 24m 45s): I had no idea that he was even doing that last year, you know, for sure.
Speaker 2 (1h 24m 48s): If you kept that in a very quiet that got all the way from phone from Mexico up for Canada over yeah. Basically half a year. It took him.
Speaker 3 (1h 24m 56s): Yeah. That's a, that's a wa I mean it's the lion take two. It's a whole, Holy cow. He, he would have seen some incredible terrain.
Speaker 2 (1h 25m 4s): Yeah. I mean, I was definitely sort of missing home comforts after, you know, nine or 10 days. I was quite glad to get home a nice comfy bed. And I say it again and say you have such and such, if you don't think you wait for, you know, six months, five months, I don't know that that's pretty hardcore
Speaker 3 (1h 25m 29s): Is pretty hardcore. Yeah. I'm sure it would be entertaining film. Tim just before we close up here, you've been at this for a long time, 30 years. You'd read this question a million times on a show, but if we could go back and if you could rewind the clock, so your 50 hours sell for just, just do it all over again. What would you change?
Speaker 2 (1h 25m 48s): Well, I'll tell you what I stopped entering flights and in our national cross country league couple of years ago, that was quite liberating. I, I, I, you know, it was nice. I had been, you know, for the last 20 years religiously putting every flight in, in the cross country league and comparing it to other flights. And that was the, it was a lot of pressure to be out on the really good days because otherwise you'd miss out on you, you know, your points on the X Sealy nowadays, I just put it in X contest.
There's a sort of record. So you know, that, that was a, a bit of a breakthrough and that sort of coincided with, you know, really joined the bulb more sort of a adventurous flying to me.
Speaker 3 (1h 26m 45s): Yeah. I mean, we've talked about this quite a bit that the kilometer crunching approach, isn't a very sustainable, is it that way when you really have to weigh into that for a while? And I still do. I mean, we have this, we have the U S contests, you know, here the last time you just started that the last few years ago, you know, this summer I put a lot of energy into it until, you know, until Kiwi disappeared and that kind of took over for us for a while, but, you know, and that was really fun because it forced me to go out and, and fly things that I hadn't thought about.
That was, that was a really neat butt. But as a, it was a lifestyle of the sea of the sport. I don't dig it and it just doesn't work. It just puts me in a shitty air and I don't need to do that. I mean, I, you know, I, I try to reserve my shitty air for the X Alps. There's only so much psychological trauma we can handle, you know, or at least that. So I'm feeling about things these days.
Speaker 2 (1h 27m 45s): I mean, the, the UK XC league is a, it's a great resource if you know, flight information and everything. And it's, you know, it's fun to see how you doing compare it, comparing yourself to others. But when you're, I think my best to have a place in the league was like, I don't know, I can't remember eight or ninth a few years ago, but I know that I'm never going to get to the top of that. Just don't have the time. And then when you've got like a family christening or a wedding, or, you know, even just kids, birthday parties or something like that, you go to an, and it's a beautiful day and you can't go flying it just sort of, you know, all your mates is there in under Ks and everything.
It just puts, it just makes you unhappy. And you know why I go there, if you, if you're not, if you're not doing the li you know, a lot of pressure has lifted off you, you just, you know, missing out on you, your Tesco points to your point in the league is just, you just slide to the front of it and that's how it should be. So the other thing I wanted to mention was, well, let me just tell this story. It's back in 2012, I believe it was so long ago, April 20 and it in the forecast down in the South of England was absolutely rubbish focused up in the Highlands of Scotland was five star.
So that was about a dozen of us from the all headed up there and a few cars. And we'd got up to work the night before. And then we got to white curries, a, which is a slight near Glencoe on the fast for the morning. And it was just beautiful conditions. I did a nice little triangle out in front of the first, before I sort of worked out what the day was doing. And then I started, I had this plan to fly from white curries up to sort of Fort William that's pushing into wind, then trying to get onto basically been nervous and then fly back to white curries.
And that would've been a, a, a really, a nice little house in return. It didn't quite what I thought I managed to push all the way through, into end up to Fort William. And I just couldn't didn't have enough height to get on to the sort of a what's it called on it, more range. So I decided to head back, I got a nice climb out from Fort William. The wind was pushing the Southwest, and I was running alongside Laura Linney, which, which Fort William is that the Northern most end of it and the sky to the West or you to my right as I was flying, sort of Southwest was beautiful and the mountains were beautiful and it just looked Epic.
The sky to my East, where it come from, it was getting a bit over developed and spread out. And I think there were a few spots to the rain and I had to, I was in such in two minds, should I just carry on with this thermal? It was drifting me over a lot, Linnie. It was about a kilometer, a crossing of the, the lock, and then I'd hit the mountains. On the other side, I was just full of doubt.
Like how, how am I going to get back from there if I cross over the lot, I could really, I could see there was a little a ferry at Corrine and, you know, but I just put all these doubts into my mind. And I know it was another thing that I had to arrange dinner at this place where we were, we need you to stay that night. And there were other people with me, you know, staying there. And in the end, I, I went out and landed on the Eastern side of lot Linnie, there was a fellow out of a thermal course, cause I couldn't keep up with it.
And to this day I regret not just going with my gut and really, you know, going to the sky on it on the other side of a lot, you know, worse would that would've happened. I would have had a bit of a walkout. I could have flown another 50 to 60 kilometers and landed on the, all of them. And then that would have been a real adventure, you know, having to get to the very back, you know, it would have been a story to dine out on for the rest of time, but I wouldn't have, so the point is that story is I'm really to go for it.
You know, if you got to translate that ha it doesn't matter what it is. If you ended up having an Epic retrieve, that's all part of the fun that you don't win. The house is still with my, with my lightweight gear that I've got now. I'd absolutely definitely do that back back, you know, in 2012 was on a much heavier gear. So I guess that was, you know, weighing on my mind as well as it would have been weighing on my back. But yeah, that's all I wanted to say really
Speaker 3 (1h 32m 52s): A year. And there's that seize the day. I mean, there are those times, isn't it where it's just totally appropriate to, to go for it. Well, I hope you get another opportunity like that. That's, I'm, I'm vigilant, you know, I haven't flown anywhere, you just said, but I'm visualizing, you know, flying over the locks and that would've been, that would have been a crusher, but it will, hopefully you'll get another chance.
Speaker 2 (1h 33m 14s): Yeah. I'm, I'm dying for another trip to Scotland. You know, when the, when the weather is good, you know, up in the Highlands of Scotland, it is unbeatable as a place to fly. You know, you often get six to 7,000 foot Cloudbase witch, you know, when the mountain is only 3000 foot and Macs, you know, you got a huge height over the terrain and it was just so wild and spectacular.
Speaker 3 (1h 33m 40s): It brilliant. I, some of the best flying, some of the more memorable flying I've ever had is certainly was, you know, nothing challenging and nothing radical by any means. But, you know, we spent almost a complete summer sailing, the outer Hebrides and Orkney islands back in 2010, I guess it was yeah, no, 2000. Yeah. Late summer of 2011. And you could fly anywhere out in the Hebrides. It was unbelievable.
You know, you just, you know, anchor in these cool little bays and ride out these storms and, and then, you know, there's no trees or anything you could just, no matter what direction the wind was, you could hike up, you know, 10 minutes and then saw it was all soaring. I never did any exi, but I'm sure it could, that'd be pretty neat, you know, to fly from like the Northern tip down to the borrower or something. But just, I mean, this just the spec and it was just beyond spectacular all the time. I actually took my mom for a tan and there she was on a boat for a couple of weeks and she still talks about it is the best day of your life.
It was just, it's just,
Speaker 2 (1h 34m 46s): You know, imagine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is stunning. Well, next year, hopefully
Speaker 3 (1h 34m 54s): It would've been good to go. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (1h 34m 59s): Cause it was only last year or no, the year before 2019, but the first people actually flutes a ball and I reckon I could have done it if I just go in for it. But it was, it was a great, it was a great flight, whatever. And I had a week, we were staying at the, is it well, a railway line called the West Highlands, a West Highland line, I suppose it is. There's a few of us stayed at this old railway station that was a, B and B.
And they cook for us there. And whilst we were there, this is quite the Pullman. What is it now? The, the orange express, you know, carriages rolled into the station and it was, it just, it was a wonderful evening that we had a super male, but even so
Speaker 1 (1h 35m 53s): That's a great place to end Tim that was that it was driven. It's fun to talk to you after all these years. I mean, we've been in touch since then, but I can't wait to see what you do next. I was actually over in Europe after the race in 2019 and watching your expedition very keenly, cause it looks like a blast and it's, it is a really, it's a great finger of our sport. That is the one that you can walk out on and, and really enjoy in a lot of different ways. So I think this will be inspiring for, for those thinking about doing it.
But thanks for sharing your advice. We'll put up your, your kit list on the, in the show notes and anything else that you want to share there and also provide a link to your great videos. And, but thanks, Tim. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (1h 36m 42s): Thanks very much. Gavin, it's been a pleasure talking to you and thanks for your contribution to it, to the sport, through the, you know, Cloudbase may have a test that resource and I look forward to each of the Episode is when they, when they come out. So yeah. Cheers. Thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (1h 37m 0s): That was great. Thanks Dan. Appreciate it. Talk soon. If you find the Cloudbase may have valuable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. You can give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or however you get your podcast that goes a long ways. It helps spread the word. You can blog about it on your own website or sharing on social media. Or you can talk about it on the way up to launch with your pilot friends. I know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way. And of course you can support us financially. This show does take a lot of time, a lot of editing, lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind the scenes costs.
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