Xandi Meschuh has been in the flying game since the very beginning. He learned to fly RC planes from his father, a pilot before he was ten years old and got the paragliding bug soon afterwards. Xandi has his own flight park near Gerlitzen, Austria where he teaches new students looking for their first flight as well as seasoned professional pilots looking to nail their first Infinite loop. He has taught SIV since SIV began; has been a test pilot and designer for Icaro paragliders since 2004; operates a successful tandem business; is a skilled XC pilot; co-authored the acro bible “Acrobatics” with Mike Küng and has been witness to paragliding since it began. In this episode we dig into the most essential maneuvers pilots need to have dialed, the stumbling blocks that lie in wait for pilots at each level in their career from beginner to expert, the dangers of risking too much early and a lot more. Enjoy!
Read more about Xandi, the trips he offers, SIV courses and more here.
Speaker 1: 00:00:00 Eh,
Speaker 2: 00:00:04 no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3: 00:00:21 Hi there everybody. Welcome to another episode of the cloud based man. I'm really excited to bring you this show. Before we get into it, just a few little items of housekeeping. I wanted to remind everybody that we've got that new Spotify playlist up, the cloud based may playlist that she's yours to grab. You can find that on Spotify. You can also find it on the website and on the Facebook feed on cloud-based mayhem and then we still got this giveaway gone. We're going to keep this going until the end of the month. I've got a fly master variable will be one a little bit older one. It still works great and I've got a power traveler, a spare battery. I think that's 8,000 million a battery. I got the 2013 x house was brand new, never been used, so if you need an extra battery for when you're flying or for full bev or whatever, that's there.
Speaker 3: 00:01:02 And then I've also gotten a Noco 15 sorry, five one solar panel, which is a little light. You need a little bit more than that in my experience for proper Vole Bev, but definitely enough to keep your phone up or an extra battery up for quick little one or two day trip. Pretty lightweight. And that's brand new and that comes with a couple of different batteries. So, um, how are we going to do that when a stat rather than doing the ratings and stuff, like what we've done in the past is just spreading it via social media. So, you know, if you spread it on a Facebook group or put it on a forum or just tell your friends and you come up with some kind of cool little jangle or way that people will actually listen to the show and maybe get some new listeners, just make sure I know about it and you'll be in to win one of those three great things.
Speaker 3: 00:01:42 Get all announce that at the end of the month, uh, social media we've been getting, we've had a few people put their hand up to help us out with social media. Thank you so much. We, I think we've got the UK, most of Europe and uh, where else? Romania, couple of the places covered. But I'm still looking for somebody to help us out in North America. I think Australia and New Zealand we're pretty good, but I'm just looking for somebody to kind of put, we know when we put up a new show to just spread it around a little bit on the different Facebook groups and that kind of thing, that different pair of gliding and hang gliding and clubs. So if you want to help us do that, that would, I would really appreciate it. It'd be a great way to support the show. And uh, yeah, let's get into this talk.
Speaker 3: 00:02:21 I just got a phone with Sandy. He teaches sib and he's a, he's a test pilot for eco. He teaches sib and Garlits in an acro been in the game since the late eighties. Has a fascinating history that has been at test pilot for many, many years. Uh, so in this show we get into sib and maneuvers that are really important and how, uh, how an a wing becomes kinda from paper to a real product and through certification and hits the mash market. Lots. Fascinating things. We talk, nobody's talking about accidents, uh, but we talk about how to avoid them and he's just, he's got, he's got a lot of good perspective. He's been at it for a long time. This came to us through one of our patrion listeners. If you're a patrion supporter, you get to put in for somebody you'd really like to see on the show. And I try as hard as I can to make that happen. So here is one of those. Please enjoy this talk with Zandi uh, straight from Kurtzman. I think you're going to dig it.
Speaker 4: 00:03:19 [inaudible]
Speaker 5: 00:03:20 Zandy welcome to the mayhem. It's so awesome to have you on the show on the show. It's, I really appreciate your patience. It's been a couple of months we've been trying to link up and, and make this happen. Shout out to Warner for introducing me to you. Uh, I didn't actually put it together until recently that one of my, one of my bibles acrobatics was actually coauthored by you. So, uh, it's exciting for me to have you on the show. Why don't, why don't we start off with, um, you know, for those who aren't familiar with your background, cause I know you, we were just talking before we hit record. Uh, your background's in acro and testing and, and being a test pilot. But um, take me back to your beginnings. You know, how did it, how'd you get into flying and, and get us up to speed.
Speaker 4: 00:04:05 Hey, nice to be initial. Thank you for the invitation. Good luck to you. The story of my flying thing, it began when I was a little child. You know, it's like this typical dream in a, when when a child starts to run and to see and detect things and then suddenly this dream is coming out in, in this child's brain, you know, to wow, to fly, to get the airborne and to feel like a and something. But you know, as a child you don't have to chance just to take off and fly. Maybe you have a thought of who has to paragliding school. But my brother, my daddy didn't [inaudible] but he was a patient at the, um, radio controllers to airplane pilots. So he was totally in construction, the airplane stuff and taking me to the air field every weekend. He tried out his, his new planes and that was my contact actually with this flying.
Speaker 4: 00:05:01 And I was, I also got totally into it. Most was making my own designs mail or radio control models and stuff. And then the 16 or 17, I think I was like, that is my father brought a paraglider as a present and then I took it on a hill and, and uh, I knew actually how flying is working somehow because I was lifting these airplanes to run and the first take of who indwell and then I was in the beginning as hill making my first steps with 16 or 17 was the paraglider behind the family's house. There was no flights cooler around or something. And what year was this? Um, what year was this? It was 1986 1989.
Speaker 5: 00:05:55 Wow. So right back the beginning. Yeah, there.
Speaker 4: 00:05:58 Okay, cool. Yeah, this was the beginning and my motto thought it was the interest and she said, no, don't, don't make experiments with that thing anymore. Stay underground. But I had my motorbike and so I, I hided my tarot glider in the water and I said to my mom, I go trust for motorbiking. And then I went into the booth, grab the paraglider, went into the mountain and I laid my flights there and I went into these heels where we have been before this, the airplanes, we knew where the thermos [inaudible] [inaudible] a pair of glasses and everything worked out in the beginning because I hit my basics already from this really control thing. And in 1995 I made the license, the paragliding license. I went to the flight school and said, Hey, I want to, uh, I, I need the license. Extremely. Because once I was landing in the farmer's field and I had no license and he called the police and I got in several little troubles.
Speaker 4: 00:06:59 So it was this, was this in Carlson or where, where, where were you back then? Um, my hometown is half an hour away from Galatin. Uh, so from Galison to east clog and foot, it's my own town and there are some hills around with 1000 or 1,500 meters. And there I made my first steps. I always knew about Garretson, but I knew also that you just can fly there if you have a license. 10 so in 1993, four or five, I managed to get this license and, and to continue with that hobby, actually since that time, it was just a hobby because my normal profession then was, I'm normally am, I was primary school teacher. That's what I've learned actually in the beginning to have a normal trouble, you know, but I never did it. I, I stuck it in paragliding. Okay. Gotcha. In nine, in 2001, 2002, I had my plan.
Speaker 4: 00:08:02 So just like how, how, how can I live from paragliding because you need your, your, your money to stay alive somehow. And, and so I tried to manage this with some turn them flies. I made my first Sib for students. And so all this started in, in 2002. Yes. And up until that point, were you still, were you still teaching in primary school? Yes. So in, in that, in, in that transformation, um, period I did both actually is, and then I quit this job of teaching and stuff and, um, started to become a professional [inaudible] Gotcha, cool. More exciting, funny. And by defined, defined professional paraglider was it, was it more your own personal flying or it more, you know,
Speaker 5: 00:08:56 at the school and the tandems and teaching?
Speaker 4: 00:08:58 Yeah. You should find the mix between us earning some money with flying and otherwise spent, spend as much time as possible in the air too, to get experience to, to come further to know someone new or so to provide bigger distance or whatever. So it was always a mixture of, of, uh, the learning and getting experience. But on the other hand, also working like flying tandems or teaching simple stuff in, in Sivs, you know?
Speaker 5: 00:09:28 Mm hmm. Okay. And, and was, were you kind of at that, at that stage, kind of early two thousands, were you more drawn to cross country flying acro or kind of all of the above?
Speaker 4: 00:09:39 Oh, it was an extra of everything. Um, but these gliders, they taper not so good in performance actually these times. And suddenly I lose more and more motivated when I, when I came to cloud-base to make some maneuvers to make a spiral and all we know, so as a metric spiral looping food stores spins, like these maneuvers would be flying in the past and we didn't know how to satisfy working or something. Um, and actually I got more addicted to this, to this maneuver. Flying is, I, I still always nowadays that fly as like cross country, but just for testing prototypes and, and making comparison to the other wings. Uh, but the, uh, flying accrue was, it became more efficient in 2002 years and I totally got into it. Then 2003.
Speaker 5: 00:10:36 Okay. And then, so the last sort of 2003, 2004, I understand he started working for ero in 2004.
Speaker 4: 00:10:44 Yes. Uh, before I was flying for independence gliders and some wings of change and Eagle Eagle, the old brand from mark was Tamar. Um, and then on to in 2004, I switched to eco. Yes. And that's fair. I am still now.
Speaker 5: 00:11:04 Okay. And how do you kind of divvy up time these days, you know, between, between teaching and your own personal flying, like, like with acro and that kind of thing or with cross country. Did you compete as well?
Speaker 4: 00:11:18 Um, see I competed some national uh, cross country competitions, but also just for, uh, getting knowledge out of my prototype and what I was working on because all of the time when I come to the flying mountain, I have at least two or three prototypes in my car. It's like maybe a priest that brought a tie, B e and d prototype prototype for paramount during the beginning, the swing or whatever. And so I have the plans for today and if I need to, to see how the performance in full accelerated with my pro to diabetes or how is it climbing in thermos to compare it to the others. So that's why then I, I go to a cross country competition to make this comparison. But I don't, I don't take a serial wing and put my flight on the [inaudible] contest for example. I always have to support the types that I'm there.
Speaker 4: 00:12:14 I am looking on. Yeah, no it is, it is like summer is completely different to wintertime in summertime and really, really busy with Sivs and since two years I have my own landing field and my own little bar at the Gallatin. Uh, it needs a lots of time to organize it. I have eight ton and pilots flying there for me and during my, it's a VSL, it's a make lots of testing work and Melvin Autumn and winter is coming. I have a local office designing harnesses. Wow. That's what I do in winter time. I mean designing harnesses, that actual harness is really getting into production right now. Cross country harness is coming next year [inaudible] next year. So nowadays, now in the winter time and see when you're locked and making a few tests sessions on the Canary Islands to try out the new prototypes. But I'm more into construction work in winter time and spring time. It's big test sessions all the time. And summer testing, booking sav, no time for actual competitions anymore. It's nothing.
Speaker 5: 00:13:24 Yeah. And there's [inaudible] these days. It requires so much training doesn't it? It's tough.
Speaker 4: 00:13:29 I'm 41 or 80.
Speaker 5: 00:13:33 I don't feel too bad for you. I'm 45 a good goodness gracious. [inaudible] time flies, doesn't it? Well hey there, you brought up a lot of things that I want to dive a little bit deeper into. But first, um, I, I don't think many of our listeners are very familiar with w f one just what it is to be a test pilot, but also just how can you kind of take us through briefly. I know there's a lot of stops along the way and there's a lot of elements to this, but you know, how, what, what's involved in bringing a wing from, you know, dream stages where it's just a, a thought in your mind to a reality. Uh, and, and also I if you could maybe give a little bit more background on a corral as well cause I'm not very familiar with their wings. Like what, what are their, you know, what are they known for? What are their, um, you know, what are their kind of most co, one of their most selling wings,
Speaker 4: 00:14:24 most telling things is the emb category, this Ikara so that that's where they focus on because the ENB category is the biggest market actually when you want to sell gliders in the big amount, you need everything in the ENB class. You need a low e and B glide medium ENB high e n B. In the future you also need meg Lideres. It really slow and brave one into and not along this they more more Morris Brie and a bit more speed. So this is the main market we are working on and [inaudible] like accrual and freestyle gliders. It's also a kind of market but not a really big one. And the cross country winks. Enc class is quite interesting. And the e and d is always a big thing for promotion and for getting good results in the big competitions and the knowledge what you get there, you can put it also a bit into the cereal class, but um, if you want to just tell rinks you need to focus on normal gliders, Ian e B and some seed loaders.
Speaker 4: 00:15:36 Yes. And it was equally as focusing on if we bring out a new glider, same like all the time, the boss, the guy on the computer. So the guy who was making the patents on the software, so the designer and the main test pilot is sitting together and, and, and we create a plan, you know, what do we need in our new glider? Because nowadays you, you should have not so many lines. Everything should be light. You should have best performance, you should have the best passive safetiness you can get out of it. And then you get first prototype. And so when you get the first prototype, you have to calculate about one or two years of working on that project until it's ready. And the process, the process is like when you get your new product out from the factory, it just lifted off in the wind and you see is it flat, is it flying or not?
Speaker 4: 00:16:38 The Brinker's or is the cannot be right clean. So how is the base? And then you start to work on that base to get the wrinkles out to, to make the first glides, to see how it's reacting on the break. What did the designer make with this new concept? And then you start to get out or out to get the wrinkles out, to get a good performance. To get a nice handling for that, you'll need at least three or four prototypes until this thing is, has a nice flying character. And then that's the big part. You have to get it through the certification. So that means that on one day I make about 30 to 50 full accelerated collapses. And in every call ups I fly close to the canopy. Like it's, it's, um, it's really hard to actually to, if you have a glider with the good character and, and you think that that might be the taste of the pilots, what they want to have out there.
Speaker 4: 00:17:42 The, the feeling what the glider gives you in your flight. Um, to get this project also through the maneuvers and destiny tree part two to get it to get the maximum passive safety and to keep the good character of the glider. For sure. You can make some loops in, in, in the, in the, uh, triangle [inaudible] on the rise as to make it slow and tend the maneuvers might be good, but it flies like a, uh, like a pregnant cow. I thought the thing, you know, that that has gone, um, so the, the really tricky part is like to find where is the gladder reactive, where, when, when, when I make some changes there and there is the reaction that what I want and can I keep the character and the good performance and did, and this is not working just with making loops down there.
Speaker 4: 00:18:41 So you have to, you have to change the pants inside. You have to change the tension on the leading edge and the on in the front. You have to put out some regi foils or put some more in. You have to change the position of the ABS and see lines on on oil, the parts of the wing in the middle, in the stabbing, low in everywhere. So you have so many options and you need to find the right way. And sometimes this cost to more than a year of just making maneuvers collapses, changing after every flight. Sometimes you, you change your life for one hour, then you go up again for the next flight, you learn down again, you change it for one mile or you go up again. And that's the testing day actually. And at the end of the day you are not happy because normally how is a good flying day ending with a perfect flight, you know?
Speaker 4: 00:19:36 But, but in parenting sometimes you don't have perfect flights, which has soiled from this car every time. And it's really depressed. And to designer, it's on the landing field watching you boiling down or at the time it, it says, yeah, I have a brilliant idea now about to change and then all the problems will be gone. And you know that he isn't right. But you have to do what your go of. If they can have a car again and think about the next flight and Bam, you crash again or you don't create what you foreclose to the canopy in the colors. And sometimes it's quite frustrating to have a period of weeks that your chest for next to the canopy or the time because as you cannot manage the thing with the four accelerated collapse, but then once you find little way and you followed it, and then this, the time with the time you can get managed somehow and you would never expect that this pitch of a wing could, can always behave really, really nice. You just need to find a way. How, how is the ring reacting and where is he reacting when you change something and it's implemented with every model you have
Speaker 5: 00:20:50 and how long on average would it take? Uh, you know, I mean I imagine it's pretty similar for all the companies. How long from, you know, on paper to certified wing? Is that a year? Three years?
Speaker 4: 00:21:05 Yeah. It depends. If, if I want to make a completely new product like high performance e and B wing where I don't have anything in my program right now. I started with the really, I start from zero. So that can take at least two, three years up to 30 prototypes. But if I have a nice model already in my program and I just make changes. So for [inaudible] Ed for another version, this, this you can make into three months. Okay. Okay. I got it.
Speaker 5: 00:21:42 And take me through the, the, so you've, your wings done, you've done all the testing, your, your, it's the final prototype, you're ready to send it off to air turquoise or wherever you send it to get the certification. What happens there? What, what are, what are the maneuvers that the wing has to go through for the certification and who does it?
Speaker 4: 00:22:03 Uh, every certification company has, has different test pilot. I know them all are from the past. Some, I know from our competition, some I know from exhibitions or something. Um, and it's quite, it's quite tricky nowadays because today we have three certification companies. So it's kind of in a market. It got a bit like a market because in the past we trusted the DHB and everybody had to go there to get the certification. Now we have three. And so do these three compelling companies. They also don't want to lose their customers. Like, oh, they're paragliding brand. Sure. And so, um, when, when I make a project like this with one prototype, I go to Ireland solar with the other protests, uh, with another project, I go to the three with another project, I go to the IPR. So I switch to a certification companies every time, um, just to see if they are testing in the same mode or are they doing it different in some way. But at the end they tasted quite good and, and they take it quite serious also. That's really important.
Speaker 5: 00:23:17 I understand that. The testing process, you know, used to be quite subjective depending on the pilot, but now it's really, um, what do they actually do there because it's, it's really like, you know, you, you do this and you, you can't do anything for x amount of time. Is that right? Like you have an asymmetric for, you know, frontal and the pilot, the test pilot is, you know, they, is it, is it still quite subjective depending on the pilot skill or is it really, is it pretty good
Speaker 4: 00:23:47 in the past? Sometimes with some projects, um, I felt the testing method is quite objective, subjective and it's not quite fear, but list the future, uh, everybody learned. And ISO then as a responsibilities by the Tuesdays, okay, this wing is safe, let's put it to the certification and to get our um, certification like AOB um, if you have a company, if you have a safe wing, if you have a safe project, it cannot fail the test. It's just if you have a ring, what is quite tricky to handle or it it when you make five collapses, four. Okay. But there is just it born when the angle of the collapse is not the right. Um, the ring is behaving not nice. And so the test pilot system, okay that's, that's not safe. So then there can be a subjective part. But at the end, I know if my glider is safe in every position in the air, I won't fail any tests and the test will be objective actually.
Speaker 4: 00:24:51 And they have cameras down there. When we make the test, I'm always on the landing field watching the pilot flying my glider. Um, they have stripes on the underlines to measure out angles and stuff. So, and before I give my wing to the certification guy, I go through with him all the details. I tell him everything about the wing and I show him videos of my test flights if you want. So, um, to, to good to my under pressure too much because as a certification pilot, it's always a quite a dangerous, somehow you fly out to a completely new product, you know nothing. And then you should go for the estimator collapse in tender will be the big surprise. So I'm also the test pilots. They, they start quite smooth with the maneuvers and they progress with every flight to, to find out if there are mistakes or not. But if you have worked quite well in the development, there won't be any mistakes and they gladly passed a certification without a program.
Speaker 5: 00:25:58 And do the, do the, do the maneuvers change as the rating or the wing changes? In other words to the, do the test pilots have to fly different maneuvers on a d than a B?
Speaker 4: 00:26:09 No, the maneuvers still all the time. The same.
Speaker 5: 00:26:11 Okay. Okay. So the rating comes from how the wing reacts depending on each maneuver that they ha what, what
Speaker 4: 00:26:20 then pilot makes no reaction. Yes. How many maneuvers are there? I looked into notes to make reactions.
Speaker 5: 00:26:26 Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Um, and how many maneuvers are there that, that the wing has to go through? [inaudible]
Speaker 4: 00:26:34 about 25 20 maneuvers. Okay. Yes.
Speaker 5: 00:26:38 And what's the most, what's the one that is the most problematic?
Speaker 4: 00:26:43 That is all
Speaker 5: 00:26:44 the time. Well, most of the time it's the full accelerated side in front of collapse or some, sometimes to spiral. Some gliders still have the tendency to make a stay with Spyros. Okay. That's the two, uh, the two main parts. We're glad I can fail oil. The rest is, and the accelerated things, they are, they are on the safe side door at a time. It's just if you go full speed bar and, and destroy the thing completely above your head, that's the most tricky thing. Gosh. And I, and I would think, um, you know, so I, I mostly only fly to liners and comp gliders and they're, they're, they're incredibly hard to frontal with, you know, just by grabbing the A's. I understand in the testing process they put lines on the leading edge, she can pull it. But, um, I would imagine even that is quite subjective. I mean, depends on how hard they pull or, or really the everybody kind of in tune with, okay, this is how it's done.
Speaker 4: 00:27:44 Well, there is a, um, there is a sign in the wing for the site in the front of collapse they make with the miss, um, with some tape to make marketing's from the wings and on into this field. The test pilot test to, uh, put them on Uber. So for example, front collapse, there is a mark on the wing on 30%, um, of doing and 50%. So in, in between this, uh, two markers, the front call-ups shouldn't be done. So then the test pilot makes it on the first marking then in the middle and the marketing behind too. And then it doesn't matter how hard he posts or something, he just have to wait a maneuver into that field. Just testing field. Same like we have to site columns. Ah, okay. Yamaka assembling sense to test pilot test to fly the collapse. Exactly on, on these markings. Okay. Okay. I understand. Okay. From these marking, um, the reaction of the glider is, um, makes the certification.
Speaker 5: 00:28:51 So what, what would happen if, say he could row, you know, the, you, you got to see that you're really excited about and it goes to testing and it passes everything but one and that, and then that the one that doesn't pass puts it into a d. Would you take it back to, uh, would you just take it back and clean it up to still get it to a c or would you just release it as a d?
Speaker 4: 00:29:16 Um, that's actually always a, I'm not my decision alone. That's the decision. Then also the bus to, uh, have a, have a compromise or not. And in the past we had, we had a problem with, uh, this freestyle ring oil and maneuvers of this freestyle ring, Deaver, e n a and p trust. The spiral goes deep because it made two turns more after releasing the brake. And then the company said, yes, well let's, let's keep it in d because it's just freestyle and it's, it's not a big deal for disguise. Right. But for sure if you, if I have a wing for ENB pilots for sure. Everything, let's be in the, in the EMD category.
Speaker 5: 00:30:04 Sure. Okay. Gotcha. Um, that's fascinating cause let's switch now. You, you teach a lot of Siv and um, the, the last person we spoke with who talked a lot about Siv was, was jockey Sanderson. I'd love to find out because you started teaching it, you know, before, uh, you know, before the shark knows technology and the kind of pear middle shape lines. So things were a lot different when you first started teaching it to now. I, I'd love to just hear the progression of, of Siv kind of what you've seen change and yeah. Well maybe, maybe, I know it's hard to do this verbally, but maybe you could take us through kind of a typical Siv course with you, you know, how many days, what maneuvers are you trying to get everybody through? Um, yeah, kind of take us through in as one of your Sivs
Speaker 4: 00:30:54 well, um, the Siv starting on Monday and it ends on Sunday. Okay. And so all, all the good days we have in this week, we use it for flying. At least we should have three or four days in the forecast of good flying, better to start the course if you'd be for just two days of flying with and the rest is raining, the Bedouins the course is canceled. Okay. So I just uh, carry out the course when I see my students can fly at least between a seven and 11 or 12 flights in this week. Then it makes sense for me because just talking and sitting in the simulator, but not much flying, it doesn't make lots of things. So if the weather is good, I meet my 14 motivated pilots in, in my room and it's a totally individual training mode. That means that I have pilots who made the license last year and today start with the first call, sepsis and little sparrows wing overs and stuff.
Speaker 4: 00:31:59 And I have pilots who just want to get the last information from rhythmic to infinity and also some help in such to Haley clinicians for example. And all the rest is in between. So that means no matter which levered pilot-tested can come into my course and t will get his individual training plan. And that's also how we start. Then the course, like we make individual interviews and where we get to target of the pilots to make the training plan and to see if it's realistic, if he gets it in in one week or, and so we build up the training plan for every pilot. Every pilot gets his individual and maneuver briefing and always adept beginners day. They always like to listen if they explained that your menu versus stuff like this. So everybody learns a lot in quite short time, like six or seven days.
Speaker 4: 00:32:58 And so the pilots, they are really motivated then um, do you have lots of information and to have a strict flight plan in Siv. So the pilot don't go up and they don't know bitch menu a day. We are gonna make in the next flight. So everything is written down on plan. Everybody knows which one you will come some next step. And so we go that through with 14 students. Everybody makes any good today, three flights a day. So at the end of the day, I'm really exhausted and did it six in the afternoon. It's, it's they, cause it's ending. I need to recover a few ls and in the next day at eight o'clock in the morning, we start again.
Speaker 5: 00:33:41 Okay. And what would, what would it kind of, uh, you know, take me through your, your, you're kind of generic pilot, maybe a 50 hour pilot that 70 out, you know, somebody who's pretty new, who's doing their first Siv, you know, where do you hope to get them by the end of the week?
Speaker 4: 00:33:59 Um, the most important things for me is that he gets the for, um, for an accelerated, uh, frontal and, and site collapse managed and to get the spiral totally managed. Okay. So that's the two most important things for me. Um, if he needs to come down quiet creek, he needs to know how to, how to apply the spiral and he needs to know how recover the accelerated, uh, side collapse. So this is the really basics. What I want to teach for sure. Wing overs are also quite important, but you cannot learn high wing. Oh, was in a few days as opposed to that or is it to get the first steps into wing over and see how the glide is behaving and does quite complex movement. Um, but the real basics are to call upsets and spiral to,
Speaker 5: 00:34:53 would you hope to get them through doing any kind of full full stalls or acro stalls or is that too advanced for that first week?
Speaker 4: 00:35:01 Um, well it depends. It's um, I cannot say if this is for all pallets, but more or less the, the younger pilots that the younger generation, um, they learn quite fast and to have good progression. And this is the myth. Some of them we, we also make really nice fly bag tail slights and little dynamic stores in those, in the first week of the SAV and others who are a bit older and don't have this, this fitness also to make everyday three flights. The tired also after one or two flights. Do you want to have a break? So depending on, um, on this level, the pilot learns about the younger pilots, they learn more than, than, than the older generation. [inaudible]. I also see I kid Oda, I don't have the energy anymore like it 20 years ago during the date it's, it's changing a bit this fifth of time. What was that,
Speaker 5: 00:36:07 what maneuvers, um, did you use to teach back in, you know, the kind of mid two thousands that you don't teach now? Are there any things that aren't relevant anymore?
Speaker 4: 00:36:18 Um, I teach, I teach some maneuvers. I teach them different, but um, there is not a maneuver there. I say I don't do it today anymore. Uh, if the owner manual says every maneuver is okay for sure, but we have some wings where they say B store is not quite good radio when you can read it in the description of the wing, but all the rest, um, I teach for [inaudible] maneuvers in, in a different way because all of a sudden the wing-center constructions changed. But the maneuvers, they are the same like in 2000 or so.
Speaker 5: 00:36:54 Okay. And it is Siv, not, you know what, to me, I, I've, I've had this attitude for years that, you know, if you're flying cross country, you're just taking way too much risk with your life if you don't do very regular Siv. And so I was surprised to hear from, from jockey who like yourself teaches Siv all the time and just made all the videos and I, I think is a terrific Siv instructor. He didn't actually agree with that. He really felt like, you know, yes, it's, it, I, in an ideal world, it, it's important for everybody, but it's not for everyone. You know, that, that for some people it's just, it, uh, they can still enjoy flying and they can still be a good pilot and, and not do Siv because it may be, it's just too traumatic or too scary. Well, what's your opinion on that?
Speaker 4: 00:37:46 That's also, I see all that, this development, but also more in this, in this older flying generation. So, um, I know 10 or 15 or 20 years ago, the full store was not in maneuver. It was just a horrible thing. What can happen in the air and, and j King. And so 20 years ago, my friends, nobody wanted to make food stall or something. It's just now this new generation now they grew up with this thing and it's totally different nowadays. Um, the young generation at first they learn to fly maneuvers and then they learn how to take off and land. And to them they learn how to firmly take surely that that will be a completely different blind generation than the older guys who fly since more than 20 years in never visit any Siv. They never made any food store, but they are still flying. Also really, really big, um, distances. But for me, this is quite a risky thing because if, if I would fly with the edit you'd like, okay, I'm, I'm really high. I'm fully on speech bar, but now if something happens, I don't have the plan what to do. Just maybe throwing the red stick. But this is a big three loss for me.
Speaker 5: 00:39:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. This for everybody. Um, yeah. Okay. Well then
Speaker 4: 00:39:09 a lot of people around there who will never make a food soap, but for sure didn't fight for more than 10 years in the future and make their flights like all the time. No.
Speaker 5: 00:39:21 Hmm. So what, what's your, you know, now instead of the 50 to 70 hour pilot, maybe you have the 200 or 250 hour pilot who's maybe coming to you to learn rhythmic sat and Helicos and maybe some more advanced stuff. You know, what, what, what do you, what, what do you like to see in, in pilots that may, I don't know if you have this term there, you probably do, but we call it intermediate syndrome, you know, so you have, you have somebody who, and we talk about that a lot on this show is, I find it pretty fascinating, but you know, you've gotten through the beginner stuff. You've gotten through the, you know, the, the time where you, you have no idea what you don't know. And now you know, now you know enough to be dangerous and uh, and you know, you're kind of pushing it and you're trying to learn new things, you know, what, what's your advice? What, what do you see in that pilot that, that makes you a little bit nervous and how do you rectify it? How, how do you, you know, take, take me through that pilot a little bit.
Speaker 4: 00:40:20 Yeah, that's also, I needed to make my experience also, Lou stepped in in, in the last 10, 15 years of making ivs in the beginning I wanted, wanted to give to pilot everything with, I knew in the fastest way of progression, but I also sold it. Sometimes it's too much. What about let's do you want it too much? And they don't see the, their own limits and go much more over their own limits and then it can get quite dangerous in a very short time. So today it's, it's quite important for these pilots to stay more with the basic stuff to get it hundred percent managed and then go to the next level. Some stem pilots deep on the, um, they don't want to spend lots of time in training for justice scene, but he lico they wanted, they want to make twister Tilley connections in this and that. Uh, so, but it's better to focus on the basic stuff until you have it 100% and then you can get to the next step. And for that you need much title and the buy day don't want they, they, they won't be champion in one, two years, but not in 10 years. So that sometimes they're, yeah, yeah. Motivation, you know, that the faster the progression the better it is. But you know, the speech Dera, lots of young and good pilots around that there are not a lot of good old pilots.
Speaker 5: 00:41:53 Gould, old pilots. Yeah, exactly. What maneuver do you like to see a pilot really, really have down? In other words, you know, a, a maneuver that's going to translate into success, whether that be cross country, thermally ing or just pure safety.
Speaker 4: 00:42:11 Well, I think there are, there are two types of maneuvers. What, what, what makes it good skilled pilot? It's Ooh, stolen being overs. Okay. It's like when, when you, when you, when you, uh, able to, to maneuver your gliders through these two maneuvers in, in, in a perfect [inaudible], um, you will have really understood this, this, this clap difficult pendulum actually what would be happy. So apparently I love if this, um, if this the um, way to dial on Deere as a pilot. So actually it's a big pendulum and, and you need to understand this and with being OSN stories who you really can give good basics, um, for lots of successful and nice flights. And my students, if they, if they make nice dollars and, and, and doing hours, I, I'm really had to this thing because I know how hard it is in the beginning to learn those being or wasn't in stores.
Speaker 5: 00:43:16 The, I think, I think there's so in some ways under appreciated and how difficult a, you know, a really good wing over really does say that you're a pretty good pilot, isn't it? I mean it's, you, you, you can't just, you can't just get lucky on a wing over, you know, you really have to understand it. There's a lot going on there. And once you, when you get it, it's, it's magical, isn't it? It's a beautiful maneuver. Now let's talk about kind of the expert now. The Halo Syndrome. You know, the pilots that are a thousand hours plus have a lot of experience. They come to you because they're having trouble nailing the infinite or something. You know, what, what's a kind of with common problem you see at that level and how do you, how do you deal with that pilot?
Speaker 4: 00:44:00 In the past, pilots were coming to me and said, Sunday, I do sell nice rhythmic sets, but as soon as I get really straight close to infinity, my brain says no. And then I stopped the glider. So I just need you and your voice and under my helmet to go through this difficult point. And then I will manage the infinitude tumbling Sunday. Can we make it two or three flights? And in the beginning I did. It's because I thought, okay, my voice will be stronger than his brain and he, I can get him into this infinity, um, maneuver. But I headed then three times, but the pilots had a stronger brand and my voice and so theirs they met, they made a little step forward. So they came maybe from 170 275 degrees, but then the brain was against strong. A duplicate came again and they stopped.
Speaker 4: 00:44:54 It didn't really baddest moment. You can stop and Dave fell quite close into it, but they felt close by the canopy and thank God nothing happened. They threw their rescue and landed in the water. Everything was safe. Um, but then I thought, okay, it's, it's not like you flying with the radio control airplane because there are, I have to come on two at a time. It's still this communication system, what to can be, uh, what can have a failure. Sometime as soon as the pilot starts to think again when he has his, his fears in, in that maneuver. Nowadays I trust to trip Mick anymore, 270 degrees and I tend to the pilots to infinity my friend to have to work out on your own. I cannot go with you on the voice because, um, I know what can happen. And actually since all the Sivs and ultra courses I made, I had no accident at all.
Speaker 4: 00:45:53 And I want to keep it like this. And if I continue with motivating pilots to go from rhythmic to infinite trust with my voice, the risk is too big actually. And maybe sometimes there are some students where I can help and to get to infinity in short time and that's good. But what they experience also, I made the terra lots of pilots out there who think I, I bike Sunday for one day, I just need a few words for him and 10 or 15 infinity faster than the others. But it's the wrong attitude and this way of thinking you, you won't get quite far. So especially with this, uh, quite technical and dangerous thing, the pilots need to take their time and, and to do, have, do, have to make this mentor training stuff and, and fight against the fear to let the glider shoot when it has energy and your chest can do it by really serious and safe training. And you, you cannot force it. You know, this, the Nuba Sandy
Speaker 5: 00:46:59 at the, the um, you've been at this game a long time. I'm sure you've seen you know, too many accidents as we all have. What would be your advice, you know, I always ask this question, you know, if you could look back to your 50 hours self, you know, what, what's it, what advice do you wish you would've taken or do you wish you would have gotten? But being an instructor and don't have, you know, you've done all this instructing. What would be the advice you'd want to pass on to the listeners, you know, to, to help them, you know, be one of the older pilots that, that hasn't had an accident. You know, what, what are the, what are the kind of the common threads or the themes that you see that lead to mistakes?
Speaker 4: 00:47:38 Yeah. The advice would be don't play too much is we should have fun in this sport or sport should be safe and we are just a guest up there when we are flying and we should never start to play and serious things with the nature with Ella Glider we when we want to make something we should prepare everything and ourselves quite good for a new thing and we shouldn't do it in a quite risky way. So a safety, safety is cool. I think safe safety first and we know we, we all know we can, we can, everybody can enter a maneuver. No problem to enter when you, it's just a question, can you, is an exit then when you were every new thing what you want to learn or need to do? Is it a cross country flight or is it a maneuver? Prepare yourself under percent. Don't fly out. Think nothing into school. Prepare a hundred percent ask the pros, read books, watch videos, make mental training, prepare everything you need to have. Plan A, but also plan B and maybe also plan c if plan a and B doesn't work and to instead of preparation,
Speaker 5: 00:48:54 that's, that's very applicable to cross country obviously to oh listeners put that together. I'm sure they did. But um, yeah. Okay, great advice if someone, if someone wanted to tackle acro and this, it's quite tricky for us here in the states because we don't have a lot of water that to train over. There's a few spots, but um, you know, I know where you live there in [inaudible] we flew by it and the XLP sit down near village there. It's just ideally you've got a Gondola, you got a big lake, you got a lot of height. But how would somebody, you know, I like, I know, uh, you know, the guys who really train hard will go to a place like Organica and train over the dirt because you can just reload, you know, you can get so much more time than you can at say a Garda or Garlits. And, um, but you know, if it, if, when, when younger, you know, the younger generation comes to you and wants to learn, you know, all of it they want to get there, they're a pretty new pilot, but they're totally addicted to acro. What would you suggest for, for that pilot in terms of taking that on, you know, what, what's the, what are the steps and you know, is it, how much, how much of that should be done with an instructor, you know, with somebody like you on the radio talking to them?
Speaker 4: 00:50:02 Well, it depends. There are, there are guys who don't need the instructor at all and then they have to go good reflexes. And today, nowadays, you know, the book is out the Akron knowledges and trust acro and on Youtube and everywhere. So actually, if you know how a glide is working, you can also go through the Internet and, and book and stuff and you can try it. Illinois, it's not a problem. I learned how to [inaudible] the maneuvers completely on Maryland. There was nobody who told me how to do it. So I went through everything. Um, and found the best way out how to manage the maneuver. Um, that's, that's the one thing and they're always a pilots, you know, uh, because this life is quite expensive. Some somehow if you book courses and you travel around and make this and that and this young generation, they are really motivated to fly but they don't have this pitch budget actually to, to, to pay all that stuff.
Speaker 4: 00:51:03 And girl it's, and this is one of the cheapest places for applying our crew but the water, so we have lots of pilots there who are totally motivated but they uh, they don't really have the money to make courses and stuff, but we have a nice community there where the older, the more experienced guys, they take the younger ones that's beside and show them everything. That's also what I spread out there, um, on, on this flying site. Galatin I stayed to the experience once, take the younger ones, explain them everything and don't make the hero. Just explained them everything and they will come for [inaudible] quite good system. What's working there? Everybody helps the other one. It's a quite good communal and so at the end of the pilot at least has to ask himself what does he want to do? Does he want a easy, biggest target to make the first place in the World Cup one time or does Seabourn just to make a few nice good maneuvers. And if you want to compete in the World Cup for sure you need to train. If you start from zero at least one two, yeah, really motivated guys, leaf Gal, it's enough the two years already and go to a Ganja and continue there. But actually um, yes you will see where you are. When, when when you spent some years in training like four, six, five years of training acro quite hard and you are ready for competition, then you've made a really, really big step and experience. If you've survived this is three of four or five.
Speaker 4: 00:52:45 Lots of them, lots of them. They, they, they stop in the middle of the progression because they have a bad accident, they have bad experience of whatever. So if hundred if a hundred motivated pilot come together button, maybe a 20 or 30 continue in a few years in Nagano IA, but the rest has seen how much time and energy and motivation it costs to go through this whole procedure. To me to be a good extra pedant and then they see, okay to have a job, to have a family maybe or they have was a normal life. Besides that, there is no much time for training young
Speaker 5: 00:53:26 man's game isn't it? Um, it, you know, I'm not, I'm not nearly as familiar with acro wings, but in, in cross country wings, you know, there was this huge jump in, in 2009, uh, that, you know, literally in some ways kind of made a, you know, a a hundred mile flight was kind of a big deal. And then it just overnight, it was like 200 miles a big deal. It has there been the same kind of jump in, in acro wings. And, uh, and then also where do you see both wings going and you, with your development in eco is, is it, uh, you know, do you see another big jump like that coming down the pipeline?
Speaker 4: 00:54:06 Well, also, always after the infinity tumbling, we thought, okay, now, no, we have reached the end end and what will come next. Now, you know, and I, I, I see lots of potential always in the future, uh, because the materials are changing. Um, and just the materials also, elevators are changing and roof new gliders we can make up to new maneuvers. We made lots of experiments, experiments with prototypes in the past, like with, we flew with completely closed canopies, like smaller, smaller pieces where the air can flow in, but it will never can flow out. And with these links you have lots of performance in, in, in some maneuvers. But for other maneuvers, it doesn't work at all. But we see some, some possibilities for the future. Um, and I wouldn't say that there is an end. Um, I, I'm sure that bill and not a big wave coming in the next three or four years with new inventions of, of the companies close, you have better gliding performance and, and also maybe better safety safety both in, in cross country and, and what was in extra flying. It's not over. No.
Speaker 5: 00:55:26 Yeah, that's a [inaudible]
Speaker 4: 00:55:27 that's all right. Writing is quite young if it's 20 or 30 years right now, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Again. Yeah. It'll be interesting.
Speaker 5: 00:55:35 Make this too early to say. Oh yeah. I know. It's all been done, isn't it? No, it is. There's, it's, it's fascinating and it just feels like we're just getting started. Yeah. Well that's a dandy. That's a great place to add. I think that leaves us thinking good thoughts about the future. Is there anything else you want to add maybe about your company or about your, uh, your Sivs before we close or any other, you've given some great advice, any last advice to our listeners and then, uh, and before we close and then I look forward to doing some flying with you this next spring. I'm going to be over in Garlits and doing some training. So I'm quite excited about that.
Speaker 4: 00:56:11 And if the deal and yet, but um, you told it already. Well it's not an twice, it's an invitation for the pilots out there. Come to Gallatin, come to my Pfleger days, enjoy the cooler atmosphere we have done the landing place and the few cooler drinks and the good device. So already DSF because I always, uh, or I, I visited other countries a lot in the past and Bella good based there. Angelita and I have a beautiful for place and every pilot who comes from another country is really welcome at us. We have really great same stair.
Speaker 5: 00:56:48 Yeah, it's a, it's an awesome place. I, I, I have to tell you a quick little story about my, my most recent, I have flown girl that's in quite a bit, but yeah, during the ex Alps this year. Yeah. I had a really bad third day, uh, going into Slovenia and, and uh, and anyway, didn't get the, the turn point got behind some really bad weather and the next day was, was pretty good. It, it ended up oding later in the day quite violently. It was a monster day, but, um, just as I was coming across from the south side and coming across the valley, I don't know what that valley name is [inaudible] but basically crossed onto the girl that's inside and I was just down maybe five or six kilometers from the lodge, the kind of standard lodge there at girl Hudson and then the sky was going ballistic. So I top landed real quick.
Speaker 5: 00:57:32 It was really gray and just about to rain and I, I top land and near some little houses and probably maybe 200 meters higher than the girl that's in launch. So I've set up really well for a relaunch, which I never got to do cause the day just totally deteriorated. But I landed near this car and uh, just, just as it started drizzling a little bit, you know, so it was, it was, it was perfect timing. And this wonderful lady came out. They were, she and her family were renting a little place there. It was like an airbnb kind of thing. And she came out and you know, of course, curious, what in the world are you doing here? Nolan's ever landed here. And they invited me in and uh, gave me some, you know, big jug of cranberry juice course. They wanted to give me a beer but I was still racing so I, I didn't take her up on the beer, but uh, you know, this huge plate of Salami and cheese and all this stuff.
Speaker 5: 00:58:21 It was just, it was one of the highlights of the race actually. It could've been. Of course I would have wanted to been flying, but it's such a friendly area. It's an amazing place to go. So yeah, I would encourage everybody to get out to Austria and, and fly that cool zone, awesome triangle place. And then you've got, you've got such a good spot for acro but, well, cool. Well Sandy, thanks so much again. I really appreciate your time. That was a lot of fun and uh, look forward to flying with you here in a few months.
Speaker 6: 00:58:46 Thank you. So the goal is, and looking forward, meeting you there in spring and enjoy some nights of your time together. Thank you. Thank you. Cheers Bud.
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