Travis Burke is an athlete, professional photographer and content creator for some of the largest adventure, commercial and action-sports brands in the outdoor industry. This is a remarkable story told by a very driven and interesting guy who spends as much time as possible slacklining, dropping crazy drops skateboarding, surfing, freediving and recently paragliding who has figured out how to make a living from his hobbies and passions. What kind of leap of faith is needed to make it happen? What does total commitment look like? How do you face your fears and cut the cord? Every once in awhile here at the Mayhem we like to sit down with pilots who are just getting started to get their perspective, and this talk will give you a very different perspective on life. The best kind of talk there is! Enjoy!
Follow Travis on his social media channels for some seriously beautiful images and inspiration:
Episode 89- Travis Burke and believing its possible
00:00:26 - 00:05:04
Hi there. Everybody. Welcome to another episode of the cloud base mayhem. These are still coming to you from on the road. I'm still out. Santa Barbara training was down Marshall with Ravis Ben for a few days. Got some great flying and Lotte red bull gist stuff sorted out sows, fantastic backup and Santa Barbara behavior into that couple days and actually right in the middle of a three day simulation. But I just wanted to bang out. This intro. So we can still get show up on time. Great show for you today with Travis Burke lot of you. I'm sure if our with that name, I follow him started following him a few years ago on Instagram now, along with almost a million people in at eight hundred and something thousand followers, so he wouldn't like this term, but he's one of these people referred to as an influence her, and is an athlete and tougher really talented, d'arvor and shoots. Surf and skate, and climbing and all kinds of sports kind of guess more on the extreme ended things but recently got into flying. And always think it's fun to talk to folks who were really just getting into it and see what their perspective is he and his good friend who manages his business. David Hatfield, drove up here from San Diego. And we had a really nice exc- flight here Santa Barbara together. And then we sat down and had a talk in some ways, I feel like this is kind of a missed opportunity because we we had this really interesting talk on the way to launch just about you know, the pros and cons of social media. And as I've alluded to in the last few episodes, I really feel like, you know, Facebook has pretty much monopoly on social media owning Instagram and WhatsApp and clearly played a major factor in our last election and. Anyway, I think the business model for these companies that the silicate data transaction it's free to use her. But that's how they make their money is a really flawed and toxic business model you name it, Google Amazon. Anyway, that's not my job. That's not what we talk about here on the show. But I just I do think that world is pretty fascinating. And I wanted to get into I have quite strangled relationship with that. And I imagine many of you do with the addiction side of it and just the sponsorship side, and how to be Fenwick and still use it not should we not use it at all. And he knighted pretty good talk about that. And then we didn't really talk about it. I just felt like it was kinda complicated to talk about in the actual show. And didn't think you would be interested in it. But then I realized when we were done if I'm interested in it, probably you all are many of you all are as. Well, so I'm Paula jobs for that. And it is kind of missed opportunity. The other thing that we decided actively to not talk about. And then also thought him we should have. He was given a wing by ozone right up front very early on today. You know? Well, when we recorded this day, we had our XY flight from here. Santa Barbara was literally as I x e he's Travis has about one hundred hours, but most of those orig- soaring at at Torrey Pines, which I've told some other people, and you know, folks, a lot of people would say like those kind of ours don't even really count, which is probably an interesting thing to discuss love to hear your thoughts on that way. In on that, you know, certainly launching landing is always good hours and does matter where you get them. But anyway, what I'm trying to say is very very novice pilot to shot a big commercial with with Toyota that featured paragliding, and so that was another thing. That we didn't really get into because I thought gosh me. And if people find out you're getting Wang's. And you're just learning how to fly that's probably infuriate people, but you know, link that with the super final just wrapped up, and I would imagine there's only a couple of the top maybe thirty pilots down there at the super file at the super final the best pas in the world that are actually getting wings for free. You know, there might be the the homey discount or the team pilot discount that kind of thing. But you know, it's folks like Travis that have ton reach, and that the can't get it and really my opinion should because they can bring a whole new audience to our sport and grow the sport.
00:05:05 - 00:10:05
And so it was pretty proactive for ozone to see that in the house will get a ton of questions all the time from people going. Hey, how do I get, you know, can you introduce me to so? And so and how do I get sponsored in my usual responses, I came and should get a better job by the gear. It's a lot of work. And it's when when I introduced folks like that it's. You know, it's kind of. Very rarely a win win the chances for under livery or through the roof. You know, it's in less. You're really that's what you do like draft as if you're a content provider than you know, how to do that. If you don't it's pretty tough. It's pretty hard to make a getting a free wing and covering that thirty five hundred euros in terms of content in providing that ROI back to accompany his his pretty hard to do. So anyway, that was another subject we didn't really discuss. And again, I Paul jobs for that. I do feel like this was kind of a missed opportunity, but we did cover a lot of ground not a lot of it flying. But mostly no the business side and photo side. And you know, he's had a very interesting arc to his business, which I thoroughly enjoyed. So I think you will as well before you get to show. Couple little bits of housekeeping. One is I'm a little sensitive to I try. To get guests from that are Representative from all over the world haven't been able to do that since I've been on the road. I've got a ton of great ones lined up Wolfgang Sisa, hang gliding show and Marcella who just broke the female distance record down in Brazil and Maxine Bellman who just released his new book performance flying. I've actually got a review of that in the next cross country magazine. So some great interviews coming up. I just have not had the internet to be able to do those typically do on Skype. So I've had to find people more locally to do these. And and that those happen to be Americans like with the last show with rob spor we're going to show coming up, but JK Nichols about t- AMI's airline pilot who's the that threaten air management that they use flying airplanes is super relevant. Pretty interesting to free flight. So bear with us. I'm sorry. We haven't had the kind of typical mix we usually do. But that's just been logistically tough with with me being on the road. I didn't. They just wanted to bring up the some of the advice in the rob spor show, which I totally agree with I get some feedback from some listeners that felt like the advice about trees or always your friend advice about reserves maybe needed to be expanded on a little bit. And you know, that they may we came across in in the podcast, they were infallible. Don't really think we came across that way. But you know, certainly, those two things are, you know, for the most part were really well trees typically are your friend and in reserve do work just period. So, but of course, they aren't infallible and these guys reached out and had pretty serious accidents one from reserve retreat, of course, that happens. But I still think the messaging is is totally accurate. You know that you make them. Low rash really quick turn low to the ground. Not. Hit a tree your chances of getting really hurt by spinning the glider something go way up. I'd rather just, you know, for the most part just fly into that tree and have much better odds than the other thing is just reserve just pants down period. They are actually pretty infallible. Of course, there are, you know, your your risks are still, you know, it's his free flight still have the risk of something going wrong. But for the most part, they work really well, and we'll at least, you know, instead of dafter broken back here, you're looking at an ankle or something else. So anyway, but I did appreciate that feedback. They're actually correct, they're not infallible. And you know, good things to discuss I think, that's it with the housekeeping. I am right now transitioning us over from patriot as I've said the last couple shows to our own subscription service. So that will be live here any day. But as I've said before just stick where you are right now till we get that all solidified and tested. And making it work. So we're getting close and yet also the exiles again close were closing down here. Let quite a bit less than three months to go. So stay tuned for more exciting content coming out of that hole. Crazy madness, please enjoy this show for now with Travis Birt. Cheers. Travis thanks for coming on the mayhem.
00:10:05 - 00:15:02
It was really cool. Having a flight with you today that was that was really neat with David and good good to see you guys up here in Santa Barbara and always special for me to be able to do, you know, quote, unquote, live show have you sitting here and the in the glancing mobile, but welcome thank you super stoked out here. We had a crazy flight my I kinda cross country. So that was exciting and yes to be here. Yeah. That was special share the sky with you know, and you hadn't really gone exceed. So that was that was really fun always start with you know, you and I were talking today after our first flight about some of the things that kind of took down this road. But pretender at a party, and you're introducing yourself. How do you describe yourself to somebody that doesn't know what you do? And and who you are. I guess I would say, I'm a photographer athlete and content creator. Okay. And does the is is the new terminology is influencer. Do you kind of that? You wouldn't say that at a party? I think but as that kind of is that how that works. I don't typically like to use that myself. But it is a term that I think would describe what I do pretty well. Yeah. But I just try and approach a different. I'm a photographer by trade. So just so happen to built an audience on social media. And how did how did that all happen was your background in photography? Did you study in school or how did you get into this? I guess I kind of started in the grip in San Diego. I grew up in the surf and skate industry skateboarding and just had a background. I always love to try different sports a little bit of everything so mountain biking and rock climbing and riding a unicycle almost anything that kind of just pushed me kind of mentally and physically. After high school. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted something creative hands on and hadn't found that yet. So I didn't go straight into college and started working at different warehouses for surfing skateboarding and doing a little bit of everything bagging groceries at grocery stores being a busboy at restaurants, even one of my more classic jobs was a fire safety job. And through the night. We would go up into these restaurants after they shut down the kitchen and actually crawl up into the grease traps in the ventilation systems. It was still super hot from the stoves ovens being on all day. And we would just scrape the grease out of the insides of these things, cockroaches and rats, and it gets in your hair, spring rambles to try and get the grease kind of breakdown in Greece. And you're just inhaling that stuff and we do that from about nine. O'clock at night till six in the morning. And then we go me, and my buddy would jump in the water a quick surf to try and get the grease off and go to school and doing a little bit of random community college stuff at the time. But it wasn't until my parents actually, hiking the Pacific crest trail from the border Mexico all the way up to Canada there in the fifties. And sixties, and I didn't think they'd really get very far. But I told him if they made it to Yosemite national park, I've come up and visit them they have a decent amount of experienced backpacking, but that's gnarly hike for anybody. So a lot of people at childher in their mid twenties. Not to call the full distance on that because they did the full thing. Right. They started at the border. It's a couple thousand miles. Yeah. Ended up they ended up completing it and it took just over five and a half months full-time every single day. Like they've put in about average eighteen miles a day. But packs and good for all different types of train. You could imagine desert's and snow and once you get up the Oregon, it's just wet and rainy and miserable. Yeah. I've gained a lot more respect for after that. It was there. I know this is about you. But was there what was their background where they hikers where they, you know, outdoorsy people or is this just on a whim or today. You know, they little more prepared than that. Yeah. Definitely outdoors. Regret camping. We had a little tent trailer. And we do, you know fishing with my dad and different trips since as long as I could remember, so always love the outdoors. They ski that's how they actually met was skiing, and so always outdoors. People and basically their retirement trip for themselves was the Pacific crest trail south. They planned it for quite a few years did the John Muir trail as training and successfully did that. So they had some warm up. They had about four years of planning before they actually did it. So it wasn't just out of nowhere.
00:15:02 - 00:20:09
But at the same time, there's still so many variables that come into play with something like that that. Yeah, it was impressive. Is it really good for them a couple, and you know, I mean, they obviously together longtime, but yeah, I think. They say I think with any long distance backpacking trip or even road trip. I spent four years in van travelling around, but any relationship where you're with somebody twenty four seven stuck in these tiny confined spaces, you go through the highs and lows and share can't really get away from each other. Even if you want to. Really teissier. So I think for them and for most people who do something like that. It'll either you'll come out stronger and kind of knowing that you're you're fully in it and compatible Oreo come out and know that you're is not really working and kind of split from there. But for them and all worked out, and yeah, they really well together, they they do pretty much everything together. So yeah, it was a great experience. I think for them experience of a lifetime. So yeah, it was really cool. But to get back to the story, I told him I'd meet him in Yosemite national park, if they even made it that far and after a couple of weeks, they told me, you know, they're getting close. So I decided as we're all those random jobs had some extra money decided I'd buy some over the top camera had no idea how to use it. But on Gundi assembly, I'll be Ansel Adams and take all these pretty pictures. And so I packed up. My truck. At a little Toyota Tacoma with a camper shell and through my gear in there and decided to do a little solo road trip to semi spent time with them hung out, and after that kind of just stuck around Yosemite and high Taft dome, and what I realized with photography is instead of just walking past a scene and ignoring and being like, wow, this is really pretty and then continuing on it really made me stop and slow down and try and capture it. So I'd be with the new camera. I how do I get the composition and the angle and the colors, and I really spent more time just absorbing kind of in the moment and trying to capture that in the best way possible. And even just a little things like we had. I remember I was just by myself taking a break. And I saw these ants kind of on across this log like, well, this is awesome. I got my macro lens. And I could seal the details, and I'm laying on this law just taking pictures aunts. And if I didn't have my camera, I wouldn't even really looked at anything. Yeah. But yes, it really made me just look at everything in a new way, a new perspective and spend more time appreciating all of those little moments and trying to capture them. So some people say that the Cameron is like a disconnect for them. They're focused on settings. And all these things are not present. But for me, I've I've always found that I I feel like I'm more present and appreciate moments more and for longer periods of time with the camera. So I would even go out at night on that first trip into the valley and have the moon coming over the valley and trying to capture that completely in the dark. I don't think at tripod is all blurry out of focus. But it just I was just stoked to be out there and trying to capture it, and otherwise I would have been asleep in my tent, and, you know, not really experiencing those beautiful moment. So that was kind of started photography for me. I went back home, and I was doing some community college classes woodworking. And graphic design and architectural classes, and I kind of dropped all those and switched to photography and really hit it full speed from there and started assisting other photographers and going home. I didn't just want the base knowledge that the classes were giving me I would do research, and I'd go to libraries, and I do all these anything. I could to get more information. Yeah. Just say at full speed along those this. This was yes, sorry. My first trip to Yosemite was just over ten years ago. That was my I had no idea how to use a camera. So I'd probably been in school a year and a half at this point taking film, classes and studio lighting classes, and a couple of different things had built a portfolio and was getting decent photography had. I think even one a couple of wards at that point of submitting contest and different things. But. Yeah. So there was a he was the chief writer and editor for surfer magazine who is speaking to this journalism class, and I wasn't taking any of those classes. But I figured if there is a way for me to be able to learn and understand from journalism perspective what they're looking for because the writing and photos, go hand in hand how can utilize that to take pictures that would connect the story better than that would kinda give me a one up in the industry and just figure out how to.
00:20:10 - 00:25:04
How to produce the right type of content for them to hopefully land a job? Yeah. So he he was telling people how he had been a professional surfer and traveled the world to all these beautiful islands and crazy destination that I'd never even heard of then he was the as a writer for surfer magazine. He'd get to go on all these trips and document, everything until those stories, and I was just sitting there thinking, wow, this is literally the dream job. Like, I can't believe how incredible his life is. I had never really even left California. I was just so focused on surfing and skateboarding, and we didn't do any really big trips growing up. We drove to Texas a couple of times, which is pretty much flat. The whole way hadn't seen much of the US. Let alone the world and just hearing these stories was just mind blowing. And I remember specifically he was like if there's one trip that meant more to me than any other trip. I've ever been on in my life. And I. Felt like he was talking directly to me. I was kind of this point where I was sick of my jobs. I wanted something different more fulfilling more in line with what I was passionate about. And I didn't really know what that was. And so he's sitting here saying like, this is what meant more to me than anything I've ever done. And I was like whatever he's about to say like this is my call in this what I have to do. And so I was just waiting for it and out of everything I did a solo road trip across the entire United States. And I was like, whoa. I wasn't expecting that. Like all these crazy places in the world and just a road trip across the US, and he talked about just how much of a personal experience that was just the different cultures and landscapes. And I was like, okay. That's it. Like, I gotta do this road trip. You know? And so that really stuck with me, and he talked quite a bit longer and ended up getting a chat with him afterwards after you know. All the other students had kind of tried to connect with them. And I was kinda lost when their had my laptop with my images. I start chatting with them showing him. I work. I did a lot of like they're called dip ticks where it's portrait next to like action shot of surfer. I think even had some paragliders in there from Torrey, Pines and different things. And I was trying to relate to him and show him that I was telling a story with my images by the portrait. And then kind of what that person did. And after a while he skimming through and was like, wait a minute. Are these your images, and I was like, yeah. That's what I do a photographer. And he was like, I gotta get you into my office. And I was like I really didn't expect it to to go anywhere. So sure enough we or two later on in his office. And he ended up presenting. He's like I've been in the industry a long time. And this was grind TV grind media. Which at the time. Was I think right now it's called the enthusiasts network, but it's kind of the umbrella company for surfer maga-. Zien skateboarder canoe kayak all these outdoor sports that I was kind of obsessed with going up, and I was just nervous being in the office on like shaking. Like, I can't believe I'm in. Here is crazy, and Hugh is he kind of sat me down like I had a chance to look to your work. And I've I've had this position that I never thought would ever exist because I've never seen somebody that really can produce the type of work that you're producing in such a broad spectrum. But I want to give you the opportunity to basically be the first ever staff photographer for the entire network, and document everything and I was just taking back. I had no idea that was like the biggest compliment I could ever get come in from somebody like and wow. Wow. That's that's amazing. And I took a second. And I was like you. Remember that story you told about your favorite trip you've ever done was that road trip across the country that really stuck with me is that something you would recommend somebody like myself doing, and he kinda sat there, and it was like if you have the chance to do that. There's always an excuse always a reason whether it's a mortgage or your dog or wife and kids or there's always a reason not to do something. Like that said if you have the opportunity you have to go for it. And and kinda just do it. So I sat there, and I was like, okay. Well. I have a huge respect. Thank you so much for this opportunity as like to maybe put that on hold and do this road trip and take off in. If the opportunity is still. Yeah. I didn't even really know what I was doing at the time just kind of going going with it.
00:25:05 - 00:30:03
But it felt like the right thing to do. And before I settle into this position and job. I feel like this might be my only time, and I think he was taken back to his house. He turning this down. I think I think of the same thing after I said, I can't believe I just said that but. But. He sat there and he thought about it for a minute. And he didn't even console anybody else. You just I go K. He's like how about this take your road trip? Go wherever you wanna go do whatever you were going to do. I know you're gonna be taking pictures, documenting the whole thing. He's like I'll cover the cost of your entire road trip and pay you X amount of dollars on top of that. If you just send us the images that you're shooting land. What? Let me think about that. Mind blown. Yeah. So that's really what started that was my first actual job that was in the career that I was passionate about I was even doing real estate photography on the side and had assisted wedding, photographers and all that product photography and studios, and all these different things. But I was like, wow. This is kind of the opportunity of a lifetime. So packed my truck at all my geared, climbing mountain biking, snowboard, surpport, skateboard, everything and. Kyw news hit the road and was just traveling around doing landscape photography night, photography. I'd go into these small towns and just see what type of sports activities people are doing connect with the local sometimes I'd link up with professionals. Sometimes it was just, you know, weekend warriors and documenting their adventures in the landscape, and yeah that kinda kinda set me off in the path that really got me out here. It was that, you know, so Instagram steps around then as two thousand nine two thousand ten guess somewhere. I think I'm bad with years, but kind of indicating stages of Instagram, I think I had I had one at that point. I wasn't. I was I held off. I wasn't really super into it. And just like I don't want. I'm not big on sharing. What I'm doing or I don't. So most of this was going back to this guy at grind. Okay. And they had like a blog we had started a blog series with my content. And so I was that. Really what kind of kicked off my social media? I started posting now that I was out in about doing cool stuff all the time. And in it was just a way for me to update even friends and family and just let them know where I was what I was doing and almost portfolio just me showing my my best clips and photos, and some of the imagery and stories we're actually grind had some awesome connections, obviously in the industry. So I remember there was multiple kind of store blogs and stories that I did that got the front page of Yahoo news, which at the time was like the search engine. And so that was huge exposure for me. They actually also connected me with gopro at the time. I he's about to set off on this road trip. You know, can you hook them up with some cameras and got me that initial connection which was ended up being a huge catalyst to the social media world and building. Follow in. Because once I got some content sent them some photos. I think we talked about this earlier, but the very first image that go pro actually shared on their Instagram page still at that time, they had, you know, million plus followers, I had maybe like a thousand or something and it was a strong image in engaged. Really? Well, it was there actually highest engage image. They had ever posted. And that sent in twenty four hours I had gained I think twenty five thousand lawyers, man. So that was struck gold. Yeah. That really was like, whoa. Kind of a reality. Check of this is a great way to just get more exposure was my target audience. You know, everybody that was in the outdoor industry that wanted to, you know, see beautiful landscapes your outdoor adventures. And so that was between grind getting stuff featured on their website and. A couple magazine features getting stuff on on. Yahoo news and a couple of other big outside sources like that. And starting to work with different brands. They connected with cliff bar and I got connected with goals. Eero ended up long term relationships with all those companies, and yeah them featuring my work was a great way to just build our audience in that exposure and kind of allowed me to continue on on the road trips.
00:30:03 - 00:35:01
I built those relationships to where I could get kind of an annual contract with them and shoot photos for them that they could use for marketing, and PR and social media. And so as a great way that was kind of the beginning stages of I guess what you would now consider like influence here. But I was able to utilize my social media page which was continuing to slowly grow and create content for them that they could use on. On their social media channels as well. So in the in the age of digital 'cause you know back in the day. It was all slide and film, and you know, it was an investment, and you really had to Darfur some saying on this from, you know, just violin life and learning from Jodie and my partner for a long time who's who's photographer. And, but there's you know, you really had to learn the craft. How do you how do you an obviously what what you have done? But you know, these days, you know, the iphone X is unbelievable like you're competing with the world that has smartphones. And they can do some pretty fun stuff. People can capture it because they're lucky or whatever. But you know, how do you how have you constantly had to kind of reinvent yourself, or how do you stay ahead of that kind of wave because it was a huge not everybody survived that transition. You know, the there's always gonna be the answer. Atoms out there. This just amazing. But how do you do? I'm leading us to paragliding in a very roundabout way. But you know, there there's talent and there's hard work, and there's both, you know. Do you when you look back? Did you just have a natural? I or was it just a ton of hard work. Both those are all great great questions. And I think to summarize I don't think I was technically like naturally gifted with autocracy. I went to a lot of classes, and we got critiqued and my work at the beginning was definitely didn't stand out necessarily a next to anybody else's. I think it was a lot of the other sports had taught me I was huge into skateboarding. That was my thing growing up and got to the point where is doing twenty stair, handrails and skating. Vert ramps and doing pretty big stuff. And I think that taught me that didn't come naturally necessarily to me either. But what I learned from skateboarding kind of taught me a bunch of life lessons that I've used throughout my career now to approach different things just life in general, but my whole concept. Is with passion, dedication, and the belief that it's possible. You can really do anything that you want? So skateboarding taught me that just through hard work and doing things that my friends kind of laughed, and I was twelve years old, and I showed him this magazine cover of this guy doing twenty stair handrail, and I went out to my friends. And I I wasn't very good. At skateboarding was I think I could do this. And it was like the biggest thing that ever been done. And they're like, you're crazier an idiot. You know, like, whatever. And I was like no it seems logical. If you can do five stair handrail you can do at twenty stare. You just have to balance longer and do like no way like crazy, but that same Intel. I ended up going. I think it was like eight years later and doing the same trick on the same handrail has his cool backstory. But the only a few people in the world had ever ended up. It's this Hendro that is called Alterra. To famous twenty stair handrail and did the same trick on the same rail that I'd seen on the cover all those years ago and. Yeah. So I think with just hard work, and dedication and just really pushing. I think it's a lot of leaps of faith. And whether it was me setting out my van with eighty dollars and ten cents to my name, or pursuing all these different sports. I do a lot of slack lining highlighting now or you're walking slack line across these crazy, huge canyons, and it's just pushing past those perceived boundaries. I think and I guess yeah. To circle back to your to your question. I think it's just a lot of hard work for me to there is a lot of competition out there now in the photographer realm and social media every kid with the iphone or go pro or you know, merely camera are using the exact same tools that I'm using. And so it is a almost a. It could be seen as scary position. For me to be like why really have to continue. I can't feel safe. I don't think have to continue to constantly evolve and push myself. And that's part of what paragliding was to me.
00:35:01 - 00:40:02
I think to I'd seen it years ago. I grew up in San Diego around Torrey Pines, and it always intrigued me just a was something that always did intrigue me, and I was really excited to do it. But just finding new ways to approach landscapes into get out there and push myself and meet up with other people and see landscapes in a way that not many people in the world get to see them and be able to hopefully bring my unique perspective into that and capture that share it with a large audience. I'm all about like, a human element in the landscape and for me, whether that's night, photography or just not national parks. But to have a huge. Element in the landscape where you're both flying through the landscape. I mean, that's like the ultimate dream for me. Don't you think like with your? With your background the first big paragliding film. I did you know, we done quite a few smaller ones. But the first bigger budget film and more serious and red cameras and all that was was five hundred miles to nowhere with a very good friend of mine Michael Jones, who was a huge Hollywood shooter. And he was just fascinated by it, and he wanted to come out and shoot it. You know, so, but we had we had Jodi on that trip. And because she was a pilot you. You know, Mike was super stewed in telling his, you know, his right hand man's guide. Jeremy cannon who's super talented as well. But you know, he was constantly going. Jeremy just go or Jody's going because she's gonna shoot the stills. She's gonna get she knows all the angles because she's a pilot, and do you think that's really been a huge factor with you like I think of somebody like Jimmy Chen. You know, the reason he knows how to shoot climbing so walls. He's a pretty good climber. You know, he's he's he knows how to he knows where to be in the mountains. He can get their people can't get there right to shot. So yeah, it's great point. And somebody like Jimmy Chan is someone who had always looked up to because of that. They're not just sitting on the sidelines. Trying to capture something with a long lens of someone up on the wall or on these huge, you know, mountain routes or mountaineer in general he's out there with them, and he's almost at the same level as some of these top athletes in the world. And I think that does give him that unique perspective and get the angles that nobody else can get and really just understand the sport. And how gnarly it is. And be able to translate that through the imagery to tell the best story if you don't know what it's like to be out there. How can you tell that story? I think it's a lot harder. And there's more of a disconnect. So with everything that I shoot I try to be competent in that sport or that activity to really understand it. Documenta the right way builds a better connection and relationship between you and the other person and pernicious really fun. I don't wanna just be sitting around on the sidelines. I want to be out there whether have camera not so. Yeah. At all has tied together and Jimmy's a person that I've looked up to for that in that respect a lot. But yeah, the if I was just sitting on the ground shooting paragliding Alday there's not too many angles, I can necessarily get. But if I can be a pie thermally looking down or just vulgar give and get to these crazy places that not many people get get to otherwise there's no trails. There's no roads. There's no access even part of one of my goals is PG for that reason as well. And just to be able to specially sunrise sunset be able to get a motor and get up in the sky and approach these different landscapes just with again, a unique perspective in unique. I and even get. Out some of those places that you really can't get to any other way. So we'll we'll get more into the flying. I wanna spend few minutes on. So I got to know you because you're van hashtag man life. I saw the the the very original one. I think and this is I think more or less when you started really blowing up on social media and stuff, but you you had quite an adventure there. Right. It was like four years in a man, I was pretty cool had been working for grind TV gun media and had just been living out in my truck. This was really before the whole van life movement. And there wasn't all this sprinter vans. And you know, every every other car out in wasn't a adventure van. But I was out there. I was on. And it didn't it ended up being a one hundred day road trip in my truck all over the western US, and it was incredible. But I found that living out of my truck was a little challenging and some ways I mean editing photos. I was like laying down ahead of kind of platform thing in the back of my truck. And I was trying to edit photos and had all my gear, and which is laying on my back with my computer on my stomach.
00:40:02 - 00:45:01
I couldn't even sit up or trying to change my pants, you know, like in laying down trying to push it just like not the best long-term goal at least for me. So I one point I had seen this adventure. Van drive-by think it was probably a sports mobile like one of the original sports mobiles at the time this lifted Ford fully decked out with solar panels and off road four by foreign ladders. And I just saw go by knows like, well, that's what I need like if I'm gonna do this full-time like just has little kitchen. I could stand up, and I was like that's the dream right there. And so I put it on. I had started creating like vision board and got really into that. And I looked online, and I think I found sports. And they're like, you know, one hundred fifty thousand dollars for the low end one, and I was living paycheck to paycheck, and honestly wasn't getting paid on time. All in especially in the you know, the servant's gate industry. You don't necessarily date all the time. It's just a bunch of broS and homeys and dude I forgot to send the checkout. And there is times are struggling and didn't have enough money to buy groceries or pay for shower, do laundry, and even if I wanted to give up and by gas and drive home. I didn't even have enough money to pay for a full tank of gas. But and so a hundred and fifty thousand dollar the handle out of the question. But for some reason, I still stuck it on my vision board, and I was like, I don't know how I'm going to get this. But I just know that I'm going to make this happen and months went by is looking on Craigslist and used through ninety five thousand dollars just lugers no lay. And probably six months later. You know, I told my parents in a couple of friends like this in my dream. And my grandma called me who lives in Texas, and she was like, you know, I have this camper van just sit in my driveway. If you want it, you can just have it and has like like, I totally near new member. But I was like, wait a minute semi a picture. And I was thinking in my head like it's not going to be some adventure mobile like epic thing. And she sends me a couple pictures, and it's a full on like twenty year old grandma camper van with like blue shag carpet on Haiti. Definitely not this lifted ethic thing, but I thought about it for a little bit. And because I cannot have a background. I'm pretty handy as like there's not really any other way, I can make this happen. So as I cried, I'll fly over to Texas, and I I wanna pick this up and hang out for a little bit and drive it back, and I feel like I could make it look a little more adventurous than it is. So I sold my Tacoma took the money from that, which is about eight thousand dollars. I think and put it all into the van and tore down to the metal pretty much on the inside and built out cabinets and flooring and really kind of customized it to what I thought it needed to be I lifted offer tires and ladders and solar panels trying to emulate that first one that I and I remember when I'd I drove back to San Diego. It it was that grandma all camper van my friends are just like what are you doing? Like you lost it, you know, like, this is just ridiculous. Again because of an movement. It wasn't really a thing necessarily. And it was just this like beat up, you know, weird looking van, and they're like, oh looks like a creeper mobile, you know, like and nobody really saw them vision. But as I just we like, I'm gonna fix it up. It's going to be awesome. And sure enough. Yeah. Couple months later, I set off the night before my birthday. With eighty one dollars and ten cents to my name. And again, it was one of those like leap of faith moments where I knew if I stayed in San Diego, I wouldn't be able to produce content and get the imagery that I needed. So I needed to be on the road and still working with grind. But they were as I said not paying the best all the time. I was just barely getting by. But I was like I just need to fully commit to this. If I want to try to make something happen and set off I was like, I might be gone three months and the over it or might be on three years. I really had no idea and it turned into four year road trip all around the United States and Canada. So in India attribute that to really the kind of the career you've built in that kind of she's stepping off and saying that comes to mind is, you know, the boats are safe in harbor, but that's not what boats are built for just half to you know, when I first set off at Salem. And if I had. Listened to the people in the marina just sitting there. Yeah. On all you got to have that.
00:45:01 - 00:50:04
You gotta have that. You gotta have win being you gotta you know, you never go anywhere. And yeah, you have that same spirit and kind of background on the water, obviously. And you have the van is where on done quite a few road trips. But yeah, I think it's just a combination of the things I kind of learned was like I said was skateboarding. There were so many other even with fee like you, really. Have to take those leaps of faith if you want to get anywhere push past those perceived boundaries. Like, I said if you stay in your comfort zone, nothing nothing like they say nothing great comes from your comfort zones. You really have to push Pasa. And it is you have to still be smart and assess all of those risks, but at the same time. Yeah. Sometimes it's just going for and fully committed. And I think what I've learned over the years through everything that I've done is. It's those moments that I was terrified of something. And I went for anyways and push past those fears and just fully committed that ended up turning into the best experiences of my life. And that the van taking off was was one of those moments for sure sill. We have pretty similar backgrounds when it comes to that kind of thing. And also, I think similar where we've gotten to in a way. So you go through this time, and it's really footloose and fancy free because you've got nothing to lose. I like being a position where you've got nothing to lose. But then four years later, you're making money. Now, you've you've you've landed cliff bar and these other companies, and you know, you're making money, and you bring on an assistant and another assistant now still feels the same way more pressure. Yeah. That's a great question. I think the having a team is still pretty new to me. I've had my original system Whitney for two years. Now, she's part time. And then brought on my close friend, David Hatfield fulltime to be kinda my agent and Rapin really helping all aspects, and it is a little bit more. It's it's definitely. A little more scary knowing that I have that overhead and even I recently got rid of the van I gave it away in a contest wanted to pay it forward like my grandma had done with me and decided I was kinda tired of living in something the size of walk-in closet. You know for four years straight. I couldn't even fully stand up. And again, it was you know, the experience of a lifetime. And I cut it my grandma with giving me kind of getting me where I'm at. If if I wouldn't have that van would have been totally different story. But I was ready for something new. So I settled back down in San Diego. I'm renting a place got a normal vehicle again and have hired a team. And yeah, it's it is a little more intimidating just knowing that I have to consistently have money coming in. And it's not this free spirit kind of go at the wind like I'll just take a job when it comes. And a lot of the stuff in my industry is last minute. But yeah, that's a lot more intimidating and does add some stress. S with knowing that there's other people's livelihood, depending on you, and your business, and your creativity and making it all come together and just the business in general. So. One more business question. And then we've got a switch to flying here. But I I think is fascinating. I think the listeners will find it fascinating the deer jobs clients, you know, gigs recall, do they always come from the company or do they come from athletes to like to do athletes reach out to you and go, hey, I need accent acts because I in my own personal contracts. There's never any budget for that. I've got a supply. You know, I've got a supply the imagery and social media imagery is always kind of free. You know, it's just something system. I contract I gotta do that. You know, there's there's extra stuff sometimes where it's in the contract that if I need a higher tog refer that's on them if we're doing a specific project for X company, but just wondering that because that just seems to have shifted. I don't know if that's just me or the industry. Yeah. That's a great point. I would say for me. It's. Little bit all over the place. I don't relationships with quite a few athletes to where if we're just brainstorming some if or even if just athlete is like, hey, I got this crazy idea. I want you to be a part of it. I built those relationships where they they know me that trust me, we work really well together, they know that we produce really good content. And so hopefully, if they have something cool, then I'll be stoked to at least hear about it. And hopefully, go on this crazy adventure and produce content and just have overall really good experience in are.
00:50:04 - 00:55:12
You figuring out buddy? Are you then post selling that? Or you got it all presold. Are you are you are you approaching that as hey, this is a great project? This is a cool person. I'm just gonna shoot it and see what we can do it again. It's a little bit of everything sometimes the persons like on working with black diamond or Patagonian, we're putting on presenting this project, and I want to add you to the team. And so it will all be included in the. Proposal, and they do have budget, and you know, there's deliverables, and it's all planned out ahead of time. And sometimes and especially in the beginning. It's a lot more. Like, hey, let's go do something RAD produce, really cool, content and hope that somebody's going to be stoked on it and the more. I guess you the more you produced in the more you have the name in the industry and have built that kind of trust factor to where they know that you're going to go out and get something than they're able to back it beforehand and be like, okay. These guys are going out. We know they'll get something. Cool. We can help fund the project and can contribute to that. In a lot of times. It's honestly trying to pull from a couple of different sponsors. And be like, hey, we have this idea. Let's get this company and this company like, you know, this clothing company in this shoe grand in this gear brand and make it this project where we can incorporate all of them or gang. Weekly and produce content for them and hopefully get some budget enough to to make the project tap, so and then sometimes you have agencies reach out. I just did a project with Toyota, we're able to actually integrate paragliding into that. I did some surfing paragliding and highlighting all in one day. But sometimes agencies approach, me or other athletes. K we have this really cool company. That's looking for whether it's athlete or content creator. We think you're great for this. And and you kind of go from there. What's the project about what's deliverables budget? And you kind of break it down. See if it's a good fit. I I honestly turned down. I would say over the years. It's been probably ninety percent of jobs or proposals that come to me because I've been so passionate about staying true to myself, and my brand and that we're Ganic nece. We kinda talked about. This earlier, but just companies are really a good fit for me and my lifestyle, and I think that my audience would wanna see I don't want to kind of overwhelm people with these spammy cheesy commercials. I wanted to be something that I'm stoked on something that I already use integrate in my life and try and connect with those companies. I think overall that would be kinda tip that I would give anyone is try to if you're using a product in a brand like try and work with those companies because those are the ones that'll organically already be in all of your content, and it's not gonna be some weird thing to have to integrate. You know, something cheese underwear line or something cheesy. Whatever it might be that you you're not gonna see your us or whatever it is. And just yeah. Just a natural fit. So, but yeah, I I don't know if that fully answered it, but it's it's a whole spectrum of of different things. Sometimes we reach out to the to the brands sometimes they reach out. To us. So it's a little bit of everything. And that's part of why it has been intimidating like I said with overhead because it's not it's not always consistent. And now, I need a little bit more of that consistency. But the asset trying to find outside ways to make sure that I have that stable income has been important to that. How? I can't wanna not forget my second question here. But the first one is how much your time is spent shooting versus all the other BS. Would you call it B S? I mean, it's the the the editing. It's hard to this job. Pewter time, you know. And so nowadays people see these I think not only myself, but anyone on social media who they all. This person's living the dream, traveling the world and stain and all the coolest places doing the cool things and the reality because I am friends with quite a few of those people, and you know, have somewhat of a little bit of that lifestyle myself. It's a lot of back end work, especially if you don't have a team, helping you you got to be the one sending the emails and editing, the photos and researching the best time for sunrise, or where the Milky Way is going to be or what the weather conditions are like and it's a ton of time. I would say. Fifty to seventy five plus percent of my time is actually on a computer or indoors somewhere trying to get WI fi and send emails and upload photos on a slow wifi wherever I can find it in some crazy country or just in a small cafe or I use libraries a lot.
00:55:12 - 01:00:02
When I was on the road. They always have decent WI fi a nice smell a place to sit in relaxed. But yeah, it's a it's a large part of what I do. It's not just this like, oh, he's living the dream and on vacation twenty four seven while you're there, and in these crazy places, you gotta produce content. No matter what the conditions are like, you have people paying you. Good money like this guy's going here. Like, and so there's a lot of pressure. You can't just be lounging by the pool, or by the beach like you have to produce. No matter what it is. And and I take pride in my work and my. Quality. I wanna make sure that the client is getting you know, the highest quality possible. So yeah. For me. It's it's go time. And it's no sleep because I love shooting the night sky wanna be up for sunrise, and I wanna shoot golden hour and midday like for different things per flying. It's good. So it's it's almost like just never ending. And then you gotta go back and edit the photos and send him off. So yeah, it's pretty it's pretty crazy adventure twenty four seven cabinet let s she a little tongue in cheek question here. How did you guy even given your reach in your background togr Affi? I don't mean to sound like a slam. But how do you get a Toyota commercial? When today, I believe was your first exc- flight give. Give. A lot of listeners out there that are like what? That's a great question. And yeah, we haven't really talked about my paragliding experience. This is the sort of transition. Yeah. So I'm not I think just about one hundred hours and done Simone sites being in San Diego. I started at Torrey Pines did quite a bit of kiting even before then and tried to you know, listen to you guys and build those fundamentals and everything, but yeah, just started flying doing the mountain sites. And today was my first kind of intro and Xia I think we got about ten miles or so, but. Yeah. It's been a little bit over a year. And I thought I'd transition kind straight to PG my goal is to be able to take some camera gear up with me. And so was really it was really photography when when you came back to it after the ten years later, it was it was more mostly to get an PG and take and shoot it was. Yeah, it was always I think everything for me is both for the experience and the photography. But yeah, they help cooler fly and go anywhere you want and take my Cameron and capture that and just having a motor on my back. I felt like I'd be able to reach places that I maybe couldn't reach without a motor. And so that really intrigued me, but once I started I thought I'd kinda do it to me what seemed like the smart and safe way to learn how to control the wing before strapping a motor to my back and ask just another element. So learned how to how to kite and ground handling. And I wanted to get my. Launches and landing and everything dialed before against dropping a giant motor to my back. And once I'd started flying. I was like this is actually really cool, and I could really get into this whole side of it. And yeah, kind of been hooked on just that. So today being your first mountain flight. What are the? What are the things that are I exceed not necessarily? Yes. I I see flight. I think it's fascinating. How people get into the sport. And what they learn early on. And you know, I always have this fifty our question, you know, what could what would you do differently? If you went back to your fifty ourself. You're you're they're basically, you know, he's a lot of hours or Tori ridge soaring. It's kinda different than XY flying. But what how has your learning process gone at? What are what are you enjoying about it? And what do you feel like it may be missing? That's a great question. I tried to even before go into, Tori. Do I had friends in the sport? And they told me you have to be able to control your wing on the ground before you get in the air. And so I went out with buddies and just borrowed a wing and started kiting in the park. My buddy. Dave just threw me and wild conditions like fifteen plus mile an hour like a kite once or twice I got have fun. Just wanted me to learn you know, and get kind of drug around and learn how to control the wing I grew up flying trainer kites and even doing a little bit of keyboarding or variations of that.
01:00:02 - 01:05:17
So I knew the window and I knew a little bit about controlling a wing in the air. But obviously with paragliders a lot of different elements to that. And it's just a lot bigger. So if you do something wrong, it's going to it's going to let you know Jag you're on. So that was a huge part of my foundation was just. Kiting and ground handling. I think I had forty plus hours before I even went to Torrey Pines to try and even talk to them. I just knew it hopefully speed up the rest of my process, if I just knew how to control the wing properly, and and I think that's really helped even my first day there. The instructors were just like, yeah, we can tell you know, what you're doing. I could Ford launch and reverse launch. And and do all kinds of you know, ground handling that most people when they first start out your weren't able to do. But I think I've become. I've flown mostly at Torrey Pines, and I feel relatively confident comfortable in that situation. But I know that's not the real world. And that's not what any other site in the world, basically is going to be like, and, but it was such a great training ground to practice top landing and different approach patterns, and and just really getting comfortable with how the wing will react in different situations and doing, you know, little spirals and. Just different things like that. And really understanding the fundamentals even on the ground and in the air. And then now I know that as I'm getting into mountain flying. It just such a different world to go. From ridge soaring to thermal flying next see and feel like even as I think you saw today when I felt uncomfortable where I wasn't getting any thermals. My instinct was to go close to the ridge because I've been dependent on and just comfortable. Yeah. Win ridge soaring. When I think the goal is if I were to push out a little bit. I could I could find those thermals so kind of transitioning and understanding a little bit more of the the thermals, and let's the different reaction points where those thermals are coming from. And I think now I really need to. Continue to progress in and learn more about the actual mountain flying in real world situations that are everything, but Torrey Pines, how are you approaching learning now 'cause you go through I've often thought it's kind of tricky if you you know, you go through your your instructing instruction course, and you get your P to and you get signed off, and then it's like fly bird fly, but you're still really young and really knew and you don't know that much. And so how how if you if you don't hook into mentors and Goodman tours, and the, you know, the community at sounds like you've got a really good community down in San Diego. But you know, with all this, you know, your work going on and all this other stuff going on how how are you approaching training improvement safety? Yeah. Got cigarette question as well. And it is basically what you're talking about. I think with anything that I've done it surround. Myself with people who are better than me in every aspect, and I never want to be the best in the room or the best in in the area because you won't learn anything necessarily, an I'm someone who always wants to learn and grow, and there's always ways to progress. So for me and paragliding specifically just getting myself into the community making sure I'm going out with the right guys who know the launch sites the mountains, the weather at asking questions constantly when you get there making sure that you're going on the right days that are, you know, moderate mellow days. Hopefully, not you know, this is extreme could kind of turn on or OD at any point and do have travels that kind of interfere with. I can't just be paragliding isn't one hundred percent of my life. And I don't think it necessarily can be at this point because I'm running my own business and traveling and incorporating different things. So. It's I think making sure that I'm aware of that as well. And if I come back from a month of not flying, not to just go. Let's go charge big mountainside and Chhaya see for the first time because it's a good day for that. It's like, okay. Let me go back to Tori, get comfortable ground handling and launching landing and landing patterns, and then go out to mountain side and just site fly on a mellow day and that slow progression in transition and making sure that I'm staying safe and in my my relative comfort zone like pushing myself enough to where I'm progressing with the the right mentors and people around me, but not going to extreme too fast.
01:05:17 - 01:10:07
And and making sure that even when I land I'm asking, you know, to be critiqued in what could I do better both internally asking myself those questions and hopefully asking the people around me on. Yeah. Just just how to progress in San Diego is a great community and. Prepare gliding right now. And we started to there was a like a safety meeting about. Yeah. Just everybody learning the basics of like first response. It wasn't like an actual first, response course. But it's like, hey, here's at least a little bit more knowledge and information, and we want they want everybody to be able to help out if there if there is something that happened so bringing a little bit more of that awareness. To the community making sure that everyone's active and involved in can hopefully help each other. If something does go wrong, and there's kind of a protocol to that. And yet because it is inherently dangerous and the more everyone's heads up in on the same page knows what to do if if somebody were to go down. Hopefully, there's somebody there that can that can help out. I know if I went down I'd want somebody that kinda knew what to do rather than just being by myself there. So each you've participated in a lot of different sports, and I forget term already this twenty stare. Oh, yeah. Just. Yeah. So how does this? How does paragliding compare on that kind of Richter scale of Radnor? Yeah. Like, I said everything chrome skateboarding twenty stair handrails to walk into cross. Slack lines. Thousands of feet above the assembly Dali, and even I took on free diving couple years ago is actually scared of the ocean and push free diving diving, you know, forty fifty feet down and going through caves on a single breath and had to overcome that fear. But I think it it all has helped me with paragliding understand myself, mentally, and physically and what I can handle. And when I feel uncomfortable, kind of staying calm, and relaxed and assessing situations because I think if you if you start freaking out in your gentleman's going and you're scared you're not gonna make the best decisions. So being able to stay calm, and relaxing focused and assess things has been a huge part of I think helping and hopefully continuing to help. Me stay safe and all of these different sports, but you have paragliding especially I mean, the mountain flynt's still so new to me Torrey Pines, I think there's that that comfort factor of you can just go to the beach, you know, three hundred feet down and define by. There's so many more unknowns. Once you hit the mountains that I'm still I'm still nervous like in a good way. And I know that I have to respect the environment and the conditions and and assess those properly so I think even today, I was I was talking after our flight and was like, I didn't even take a single picture. I didn't plumb phone because I knew that I was uncomfortable or not I wanted to stay safe and be present and just do all through so many distract. If you pull out a gopro in your taking Sophie's and all these things it's just going to distract. So I'm still. At that point. I want to be one hundred percent present and safe in progress. Is it scare you more or less than other stuff? I realize I've maybe new an answer that question. Two different feeling because it's just so it's beautiful peaceful. And you're just that's part of what I love about paragliding is just so incredible and relaxing, but at the same time if you're starting to sink out you're scratching and there's this. I think that's when it gets intimidating, and it should be intimidating when you're low versus when you're high, obviously. So yeah, it's. It's pretty up there, especially especially I feel like I'm a lot more out of my element than in other situations. So we have to revisit this after in a year. If you start doing a ton of XY flying, I wanna see if he's still say, it's relaxing. Often. Find like the kind of flights that I do. I don't find them relaxing the end of the day when there's a glass off, or you know, or having a nice letter in the evening, of course, you know.
01:10:07 - 01:14:56
But I find I find like, you know, big accede as is going to battle. Level. It's just I I like that. Because when I, you know, most people when they take tandem, they they say ought so quiet. It's so relaxing, and I'm like, wow. That's that's not the sport. I participate in. And that's what I'm finding with. I mean, if I I've mostly just on-site flying even at mountain, so I can thermal up, and I'm not trying to go anywhere just cruising and find the next firm on hanging on. And I've just gone on good days and had good lift. And so there has been that element of like, oh, this is pretty cool. But once I get load or. Yeah. Even today as we started to exceed I'm like, whoa. This is intense. Like, where's the bail out or? Yeah. Just there's a million different factors. So yeah. I know that's that's not that transitional period again, where it's like, okay. It's back to everything being intense and a million different factors everywhere. But that's what I love about it too. So I imagine because of your, you know, huge following and don't need to go back to that. But you know, you've got a ton. There will be a lot of people listening to this. That are not pilots know, most of the podcast is is most of our listeners are, of course, pilots at every level, you know, from your guys level to all the way up, you know. And what would you say to the folks listening that that are maybe like, wow, the spirit? Leading sounds pretty interesting. What would you say that the folks who don't know what it's all about? I would say it's an incredible experience. And there's obviously nothing else like it. But if you do decide to take it on make sure you do it the right way and don't just by a wing and watching YouTube video and Huck yourself mountain. I think it's all about safety and surround yourself with the right mentors and going through the proper safety but the app because there is that risk, but the reward is just incredible and the communities incredible. That's part of what I love about. This too is coming up to Santa Barbara and hanging out and meeting new people and seeing new landscape. So yeah, it's it's for sure something I wanna do the rest of my life. And I'm just taking it slow to make sure that I do it the right way. So that I can do it the rest of my life. But yeah, there's there's really nothing else like it. So I encourage you take a tandem if you like it and definitely diving. And do it the right way. But it's it's incredible. Travis thanks to place to end thoughts of meeting. You. Good luck with your progression. Love to check in with the again in a year or so. And but yeah. Half on cloud base. And and keep chasing. Thank you so much, and you can get up to more adventure sooner real tritiated. Hope you enjoyed that. Always phone to sit down with these great pilots in different parts of the world super inspiring. As always all we ask for is bucket show. If you're getting something out of the cloud base, mayhem there, many ways you can support it either financially through pay pal and soon to be directly through our website. Love details of that up pretty soon. But if you can't support us, financially, we totally understand this remain free as long as we can do it. But you can support it in many other ways, you can give us on a rating on itunes or Stitcher, or however, you listen to your podcast that really goes a long ways, you can blog about it. When your own blog, you can post about it on social media share it with your friends talk about it on the way to launch and many many of your doing that. I really appreciate it. And another way you can sport us through our store. We've just got a whole new load of awesome, Patagonia, t shirts for men and women and a whole new box of superstar. The trucker hats by recaps H. One is totally unique got a whole bunch more color. That seemed to be more in favor. So go to cloud base may dot com. Click on the store link and get some cool Shwak. That's another great way to sports show. But yeah, get behind us. You know, we're doing this directly just through you instead of sponsors because I just can't stand having that whole sponsor thing the top of the show, and I want you to know that it's a authentic conversation. It's just opinions and they're not being skewed by advertising dollars, which I think is a pretty toxic thing. That's happening going on right now globally stuff going on Facebook. And and other. So anyway, we'd like to do a direct. We appreciate your support. And we'll see on the next one. Cheers.