Two weeks ago at the World Championships in Costelo, Brazil a competition pilot was killed. This tragedy sparked an immediate and fiery response on social media calling for a top-down change at CIVL, the governing body of Category 1 competitions. Interestingly, two years ago during the World’s in France there were over a dozen incidents, many which lead to serious injuries…but the blame was more sequestered to the pilots ability and decision-making, not the organization. Last week Chrigel sent me an 8 minute voicemail during a training session laying out his own personal thoughts on this charged debate. So we made an effort to sit down immediately and discuss it all without all of the online emotion. Who’s ultimately in charge of safety at competitions? We explore the historical context of safety measures and the comparisons with what’s going on now to what’s happened in the past, the stress levels experienced by pilots during competitions, and the importance of training and experience. The conversation also touches on accident statistics, the responsibilities of pilots versus organizers, and the development of gear and its impact on safety. We conclude with thoughts on future directions for safety and training in the sport.
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The paragliding community experiences waves of safety concerns and performance debates. Stress levels during competition can significantly affect pilot performance and enjoyment. Training and experience are crucial for handling advanced gliders safely. Accident statistics reveal a need for better safety awareness in paragliding. Pilots must take personal responsibility for their safety during competitions. Organizers face challenges in balancing safety and competition excitement. Gear development should prioritize safety alongside performance. A culture of safety needs to be fostered from the beginning of training. More communication between pilots and organizers can improve safety measures. Future improvements in paragliding safety require collaboration between athletes and manufacturers.
Sound Bites
“It’s a wicked dangerous sport, just period.” “We have to develop new stuff.” “We need to find solutions together.”
Chapters
00:00 The Safety Debate in Paragliding 04:51 Understanding Stress Levels in Competition 09:41 The Role of Training and Experience 14:15 Accident Statistics and Safety Perception 19:12 The Responsibility of Pilots vs. Organizers 24:08 Gear Development and Safety Concerns 29:01 Future Directions for Safety and Training
Gavin McClurg (00:06.267)
There we go. Okay. Kriegel, great to get you back on the show. And I'm glad you left me that voicemail as you were training. I thought that was pretty fun. I could hear that you were hiking up something pretty hard and you have some thoughts about this kind of safety debate. Why don't we start with what's happening? You've seen it just like I have, but what's going on in the social media world and what is this debate? And then we'll dive into
your thoughts on safety and where we should go from here.
Cm (00:40.942)
Hi Gavin, thanks for having you. I made many thoughts about the discussions I saw in social media and in the paragliding world. For sure I was thinking about it, but I was not coming to a clear answer because I think it's so many topics that we can discuss. I just have 20 years experience in competition, in paragliding, in developing and...
thinking in different ways. And yeah, it's nice that you have some questions about...
Gavin McClurg (01:16.059)
Yeah, you know you're the first thing that I that I thought when you left me the kind of voice memo the other day was that we kind of go in waves with this. You know that the Peter heater accidents and really was the what led to the banning of the open class and the development of the CCC class. And so you know it kind of goes in these waves of of safety and then back to performance. Talk about that.
the history of that and obviously we're in the wave right now of safety.
Cm (01:54.136)
Yeah, that's true. When I started paragliding in 98, there was, I think, the most dangerous part was over because the competition wings in 95 and 96 was really dangerous and then it got back to more safety and it goes also to more light and then it becomes more safe and I was quite lucky to become a pilot in this period where the gliders was quite okay.
I remember we had glider where the top speed was more than 75-80 in 2008-9 and then with the new concept of the shark nose the glider was even more rigid and fast and then we got new rules I think it was a hard step to accept this but the rule became friendly and everybody was agreed that
that the rule to have a CCC class was important to have. It reduced the top speed for sure, but it also reduced the accidents. And finally, we have gliders which are again, really rigid and fast and in strong conditions, it's always for me a bit stressful to handle with fear and good feeling.
That's why I think the discussions are quite okay to have more easy gliders in competition. Because in fact, we do a game in the air, we fly competition, but the gliders are, doesn't matter how good performance we have. I think in the other way to have record flights, cross-country record flights or speed records, we need good performance. But in competition, when you fly a clear task,
the performance is not that important. That's why it's a good thought to have easier gliders. In these years I see that the new category of C gliders, they work quite good as long as fly. But in the end it's a two-liner. If we have big collapses, for sure you have to handle it. You have to be good as a pilot. That means...
Cm (04:20.206)
The category C is not a really true category. But if you do a lot of hours with these gliders and you go step by step faster, you can learn to handle it. But in the end, is still paragliding sport and we have to accept that it's a really dangerous sport or it can be really dangerous after the start. And this means also, yeah, we have to be prepared for it.
Finally, I do have a clear answer and solution, to have some thoughts is always good.
Gavin McClurg (05:00.689)
You went again, going back to your message that you sent me when you were training, you had a kind an interesting breakdown of when you're when you are flying competitions, know, 10 % were this 40 % was this 40 50 % was this what break that down for me again.
Cm (05:21.454)
Yeah, this means that when I fly, I get a feeling, depends of the conditions. And I think with the CCC glider, I feel 40 % of the time, I feel a bit stressed. 50 % of the time, I feel okay. I mean, during transitions, during termling or whatever, but 10 % of the time, I'm really stressed.
I really feel that I'm on the limit of my skills, of my feeling and of fun. And I don't know how you feel on a comp wing, but for sure it's more intense in the Alps. Maybe it's 15, 20 % I'm really at the limit while in flatland maybe it's two or 5%. But I think to have more fun and resources for the competition.
we have to reduce this stressful percentage of the airtime.
Gavin McClurg (06:26.659)
You and I have similar thoughts, I think, when it comes to, there's a lot of comparisons we can make to motocross, mountain biking, downhill mountain biking, F1. These sports that are really visible, much more visible than paragliding. I don't know a great deal about those sports, but I know that these are very professional athletes at the top end. know, they're, they're, they're.
They take the training very seriously. They take the risk very seriously. They're not ignoring certain things. They don't just jump in an F1 car on race day. There's a lot of training that goes into what they're doing. When this debate first went out, because I'm an organizer as well and a meat director and I put on these competitions, I was quite sensitive to it because
I know how much goes into it and Martin Sheal and I both share, I know similar thoughts on competition is that the trend for the last bunch of years has been to put more and more of the onus on the organizer and not on the pilot. And he gave a really good talk at the.
At the World Cup in Grindelwald, you and I were that you know he feels strongly that this is the wrong direction of things that because a task is set and because the meat is on that a pilot just blanks out on their their own personal safety and OK, I'm going to go race. You know we all know that in every discipline.
when you go from recreation to competition, you're gonna take more risks. Your ego is involved, you're racing, you're going to take more risks automatically. that is being pushed more onto the meat organizer, in this case, civil. When I first saw that, really, personally, I didn't like it. I really feel like Martin's onto something that we as pilots have to always...
Gavin McClurg (08:39.995)
We're the pilot in command. We have to be the ones responsible. You had some thoughts about training that, you know, in competitions often these pilots just show up for the comp, fly for their CCC glider, go home, pack it away till the next comp.
Cm (08:57.102)
Yeah, that's the truth. And I see different topics. is what you say about the other sports. There is a hard selection. In PwC and in the World Championship, we have selection, but it's quite easy to go there without enough experience. And there, to have better selections, maybe less athletes in the front,
can be a different. And then the other problem we have, an athlete, I mean a human in competition, it's quite stupid. So this is what I know from myself, that in a hard competition, I'm not myself anymore. And if I have checklists or in a team, I mean in a competition like XAlps, I have a team that can lead me, that can stop me.
But in flying competition, as once you stay in the air, you are your own boss and then human and competition are stupid. Comes into play, into play in the solutions. And this is a really big problem we have in all sports, but especially in paragliding competition.
Gavin McClurg (10:25.589)
If you could make a difference today in selection, what would be the criteria for say flying, even just flying a CCC glider in competition? Would it be a certain amount of hours of SIV? What would you suggest?
Cm (10:46.22)
Yeah for sure, you need more practice on your gear. I mean it's not only the gliders, it's also the harnesses and instruments for example. There is less visibility of the instruments at the new harnesses. There is different rescue systems. mean cross rescue, rocallo, cutaway, whatever. You have...
different systems and you have to train this. mean to do two or three times in a year a training or especially before a competition you do a training with your gear. It's really recommended and for example to fly a full stall to reopen a cravat after collapse it's I think a need to do. It gives me a better feeling. I'm honest I'm not do all flights full stall but
but I do some sessions where I try to refresh my good feelings to be ready and prepared for a competition. But to be honest, on a CCC glider, it's not that easy like on a C or D glider. And so the border to do it, to practice more, it's even harder. And it gives me an extra...
I need an extra day to do this. I need a place over the lake. I need organization. But I think to be professional or to be a good competition pilot, I have to do this, especially before the comps. And then takeoff in strong wind conditions, takeoff in back wind conditions. Then the hours to fly the hours in the air to be friendly with the speed system, with the feeling you get.
be comfortable and then you can go into a competition. And how you do the selection everybody has to do by own at the moment but I think maybe for the future it needs rules to bring the experience and the training into a competition.
Gavin McClurg (12:56.433)
Do you think that, so I know a trigger point for what is happening right now on social media was there was a very bad accident at the Worlds down in Brazil. There were a lot more accidents at the last Worlds in France. There was no deaths, but a lot of reserves, quite a few injuries, a lot of incidents.
There was the super final and dissenters. But after hearing from you just a couple of days ago, before we did the show, I was speaking to Ed Ewing at XCMAG and I might have this number slightly wrong. So you're the 37 or 39. In statistics in our sport, it's not like jumbo jets and the FAA. We're really battling trying to get proper
data on accidents, both from competitions and also recreationally. he thought that in Switzerland this year, so either 25 or 24, I'm not sure what calendar year, but there was 39 deaths in the sport. And I believe all of them were recreational. Maybe there was one or two, I can't remember, but they were in competition.
I feel like that gets lost in this discussion. know, that because in competitions they're more public, I guess you will, there's more people watching, there's more people there. And it's a big deal and it should be a big deal. have a loss of life or a big accident is not something we should just gloss over, but it's a wicked dangerous sport, just period. And I think we lose that side.
I feel like that's getting lost in this discussion right now that. Not that that because there are so many deaths in Switzerland and it was about the same number in France. I understand and that's not unusual. That's not an unusual number. It's about what it is. It's just it's not a safe sport and so I feel like people kind of. Put that under the rug sometimes.
Cm (15:09.934)
I think it starts still quite early in the flight school. In the flight school you get the feeling paragliding is the safest sport in the world. And it's not true. Because after two seconds you are quite high and it can be dangerous. I think if you start, I don't know, mountaineering you learn to wear a helmet because it's really dangerous to get rock fall.
for example. therefore maybe you learn to fly with the wrong mindset. And then it goes on with the competitions, then maybe there is a good competition, then you get a good feeling and it goes on and on until something happens. And when I watch back the last years, we always had years with more and...
some years with less or no accidents. And I don't know why, but over the past, it was always more and less, more or less. And always when we had a lot of accidents, athletes and organizers start to think about safety and everybody's crying about safety. And in the years we not have so much accidents, everybody is crying about efficiency in the gliders, in the equipment. And nobody looks
for safety. And then it goes up and down like this. it was even when I start paragliding, some good pilots explained me this phenomenon. And I can look back the 20 years and it was always a bit up and down like this. And now this year was a really bad year with a lot of accidents, bad accidents. And it's clear that
People ask for more safety. And I think it's good to think about and I think to get new rules with leads, the stupid athletes myself include in competitions.
Gavin McClurg (17:22.459)
What would be some of the things you would focus on? What are you seeing that are contributing to this worst change recently?
Cm (17:36.696)
Yeah, that's always a good question. There is no clear solution. If we have the feeling that the organizers have to bring more safety, the organizers will organize less competitions. They will organize competitions in areas where it's quite safe, means boring. And finally, we have rules, too many rules, which says if it's a bit cloudy, we don't fly.
means we have only competition in very boring conditions and then you have to go with this or you lose it and you leave it. And maybe it's a good way because we need more safety but on the other side I think we can have more talking talk about these safety topics and finally
To bring more training and more rules for the equipment, what makes the sport more safe? But it needs time. We as athletes, have to these rules and to train with these rules to have the confidence and the fun back in competition.
Gavin McClurg (18:58.395)
Yeah, I mean, as a meat organizer, but also as a pilot who loves to compete, there was a lot of talk this year in the Red Bull X-Alps that it's too dangerous. It's too windy. It's too much fern. The furties should shut down the day. They should have a certain parameter, and then you close the day.
I just violently am opposed to this because it, again, comparing to these other sports that are really dangerous, there doesn't seem to be this, my God, we need to shut everything down. Somebody died. I'm not trying to be callous about death, but if we start operating like that, then like you said, we only fly in the perfect conditions, boring. We only fly the perfect tasks, boring.
you, Patrick, there are people who on day two can perfectly handle those kind of conditions in a, you I'm using finger quotes here, in a safe way. You've trained for it. That's, you, you, you, your operate, I talked to Simone after it on about the podcast and he felt like that day was perfectly within his realm. He, you know, it wasn't perfect. It wasn't great. but it was, he had trained for that. And so, you know, that doesn't just, that
Cm (20:23.17)
and
Gavin McClurg (20:25.979)
What that says is maybe not all 32 in the race should be flying that day, but it should be up to them. It should never be up to 30. Where do we start and stop with these parameters? And this whole thing that, well, yeah, but they're setting an example for everybody else. That's ridiculous. I don't watch you fly and go, yeah, OK, that's what I can do that. Gavin O'Clair can do that. No, I can't. I'm not Kriegel. I can't do that. So that's just, that would be stupid.
So yeah, I think that again, from a meat organizing standpoint, we can't for sure know that the weather is going to be what's on the forecast.
And so the task committee is inevitably going to get it wrong sometimes. Hopefully not. They're good and they're professional and they've made a lot of tasks. I I've been on the task committee down in Mexico for 10 years running. Sometimes we goof it up. Sometimes we don't necessarily nail it and we have one one leg of a task that's too into too much wind and that can be dangerous. But is that the task committees fault? Is it you know, or is it the pilots responsibility to fly it in a safe way?
or not fly it. This is beyond my ability. I'm going to go land. I've said a lot there, thoughts?
Gavin McClurg (21:58.331)
Sorry, do you have any thoughts on that? mean, it do.
Cm (22:01.304)
Yeah, sure. I thought the technique says. Yeah, sure. I see that too many rules are too complicated in this way. But I think there is a one way in communication that means if they do a briefing and speak about safety and pilots that they have to make all the decisions by them own.
Gavin McClurg (22:05.284)
Hahaha
Cm (22:31.022)
and then they give penalties for some parts of the day where it was really not dangerous, then it starts to really tricky to understand and to respect the things. if you speak before a competition what it's okay and where is to stop, I think then you can be prepared. But as long as you like to do the hardest adventure race,
then it's difficult to stop the tasks. It's a bit similar part in cross country competition when you speak about level one, two, As long as you can speak in the radio, it's level one. Some of the good pilots can speak about level two, but when it's level three, the pilots are not able to communicate anymore, for example.
I think that there can be a better, like, I think the pilot is not the right to be in a committee, maybe some marshals, a marshal committee. That means pilots in the air or in the competition, but they are not taking part in the competition. They can take clear decisions. Then they can communicate because they can
Gavin McClurg (23:54.443)
interesting.
Cm (23:58.926)
then can realize the danger part and then I can react on it. sometimes in the... it was easy to see something, but because I was a pilot in the competition, I was not responsible to react or I not feel responsible. And with the comity, what have a good effect can be a next solution.
Gavin McClurg (24:26.555)
You know, they changed the Flymaster trackers. You used to just have to call the levels on the radio. Now you can do it basically anonymously. I mean, the scorekeeper would know, you're right. It's a cultural thing. People don't want to call level three. A, you've got to land if you call level three, but also there's funny stuff there. There's shame or I don't want to be the one to do it.
So now you can just press a button. This is harder on the subs because you can't get to your instruments, but you if you can get to the little device that they give you before going out on the cone, it's kind of nice. You can just hit level one, level two or level three, and it provides all the information. Your altitude and position and everything else so that there are things like that that I really. Think are really good moves forward. know that that's somebody's thought about that.
Cm (24:59.724)
It's easy.
Gavin McClurg (25:24.505)
Okay, this is a problem we have in our culture. It's very hard to change a culture, but you can give somebody a different instrument and okay, well then there's no shame. I can just press the button. Go ahead.
Cm (25:35.15)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (25:42.403)
I thought you were going to say something there. Were you going to say something on that? No. More on the pilot side of things. You mentioned too that to really critique an organizer, you should organize a comp. See what it's like.
Cm (26:03.266)
Yeah, I also organized some competitions and you want to do it as good as possible. You have the challenge to make it an interesting task, but also a safe one. And yeah, you know how it works. You try to do it as good as possible and you spend a lot of invest time, passion and then if the weather it's good and everybody it's safe back, it's a really good feeling.
If something happened, you never know if you do a mistake or there was an unlucky place. And I think in one way, it's good to have the rules to keep on it or to go with a clear structure. But on the other side, you also have to accept that you do a competition outside with the way that they can change. And maybe to speak more about this.
With the athletes, it will be also important that the athletes are more involved in the problems. And I think as soon as every athlete has to do his own task, they understand better what's the problem for organizer. And it's always for me, I mean, when I start the competition, I was 16.
And I was really happy to go there on a place where everything was organized. There was a shuttle, there was a place. There was a marshal. say, okay, window is open. Everybody's fine. And then, you know, that, or you get the feeling that, that you are on a place where nothing can happen. And maybe if we, if we turn in the other way, that the organizers say, okay, welcome to a horrible race. the weather it's.
horrible, turbulent, we go up because we try. I mean, this way can be more that athletes understand better what they do. And in the end, we have to be clear and honest to have a race in the air where everything can happen. And if you start a competition with this focus, it means you have to train more.
Gavin McClurg (28:08.507)
honest.
Gavin McClurg (28:12.399)
Yeah, all right.
Cm (28:28.568)
You have to think more about problems and to be prepared for the problems. And in the end, you know, if you start as an athlete, you know better if you want to do this or not, if you take this risk or not. And if you want to do it, you also get the confidence and the fun. I'm sure.
Gavin McClurg (28:51.313)
Yeah, think it's often I have found since I started organizing it and redirecting it's a hard balance to find. My objective is always to get everybody in the air as much as I can. If the task committee and weather crew feel like we've got a window, then I want to give it to them. Like Martin did.
I think it was the second task in Switzerland. It was raining all morning and we had this little tiny pop and we went and had a really fun little mini task. So I always feel like that's the goal. And what I really worry about when I see this kind of attack on the organizations is there's not that many people willing to do it.
There is really no money in it. It's a passion project for everybody. And I think if you press too hard on safe, then you just never have tasks. They're only gonna happen on the perfect days. And a lot of the fun gets pulled out of it then.
for me, know, those days are fun. The perfect days are great, but it's the days that are kind of on the edge or tricky or technical or stable. You know, these are the we remember.
Cm (30:18.274)
Yeah, is, for example, in F1, in the rain you have to put wheels on with profile, rain wheels. And maybe on some days when you can see the conditions are tricky or you go into an area like the mountains, the organizer have to say, okay, today we fly with B wings. And if you go out in flatland and the day is really good, no wind, can say, okay, CCC wings are okay.
But that means you need more than one gear. But in the end, it's the organizer, they give the rules and they say what you have to do. And yeah, as I say, I don't know the perfect solution, but in the end we have to be more... We have to realize better what we do as a pilot.
Gavin McClurg (31:15.505)
Kriegel, we've covered a lot of ground. Lastly, I want to finish on you had some thoughts about the gear side of things too. You you've been a designer developer for advanced for a long time, your brother is as well. I had a great conversation with him, by the way, and Nissan was your guys raced through it. Spent a lot of time with your brother, but we had a blast. But what, anything to say on the gear side of things? Cause we, well, we talked a little bit about, you know, the open class and then the CCC, which seemed to be a very good move, but.
Anything else? You mentioned harnesses.
Cm (31:50.574)
In the end we have to develop new stuff. Manufacturers will do business and they develop new gear. I was really surprised in the last years how they can progress in performance and safety, in handling, in weight. But on other side they push really...
in a direct and where the gear is efficient. What means also that we have to accept some compromises. mean, the new harnesses, they have quite a small back protection, for example. I can see in Hikenfly the harnesses with back protection with air. Sometimes athletes in a hurry, they don't blow it really
ready before the start. They say they do it in the air but you never know. In the end they can cheat quite easy their own safety. If there is a rule which makes the gear more safe and the rule is for everybody that means at least it's more safe and there is no one with disadvantage. But if everybody needs the high performance product
Everybody has a disadvantage in safety and no one has an advantage in performance. And this is stupid way.
Gavin McClurg (33:24.017)
because they're all flying the same thing.
Gavin McClurg (33:28.145)
Yeah, I mean, this was a big problem with hang gliding as well, right? I'm not a hang glider, but I understand this was the same thing. They kept making these incremental changes in performance, which were a lot more expensive. You kind of had to have that piece of equipment to compete, otherwise you couldn't compete. it just whittles it down until very, very few people can afford it and use the equipment.
Cm (33:55.15)
That's right, yeah. And finally, I think to have gear which is easy and makes fun and if it's similar to the others, I think then we have a bigger community. I mean, to be honest, at the moment there are two manufacturers. They lead to the competition in cross-country competitions. And when I was fresh in competition, there was 20 manufacturers with teams and developing stuff.
and it gives a lot of motivation in the groups and now this is gone there is also almost no developing in general and yeah, this I can see as a big difference compared to before in Hikenfly it's more, are 6-7 manufacturers they do specific equipment
but they also go into a way which makes the gliders more complicated, more heavy to get a bit more performance and for sure it's normal way but without rules we go soon with the high performance D-gliders which are a bit more heavy and the harnesses are more heavy, more complicated I think also more unsafe and it means I as an athlete I have to train even more
I'm not saying go with the easy equipment because I will do competition, but I know I have to train more, even more harder to get a good feeling.
Gavin McClurg (35:35.355)
So if I could summarize, in general, athletes aren't training enough, especially at the higher levels, if you're gonna fly a CCC wing or a comp glider or even a D or now two liners that are Cs, you need to be spending some time over the water doing some SIV, making sure your current, making sure you know your gear. There's some things we could do on the gear side of things, potentially marshals.
It is a safety committee, they don't have anything invested in the competition, but they're up flying with everybody. So you've got more skilled eyes in the air that can be helping the meat director on the ground. Go easy on the organizers. But if there's something that can be done in the rules that help safety, we should definitely take a look at them. Am missing anything?
Cm (36:34.264)
Yeah, maybe two things. One point is for people they listen to understand the two line glider problem. There is more stability, more safety in flight as long they fly. But as soon they collapse, it means it needs more turbulence. It needs more disbalance and then it collapse even more aggressive. And if you have a good reaction, you can handle it quite well, but it need
neat experience and it's not really similar to the SVI trainings over the lake to get big collapses in full speed in the air and then if you miss the reaction if you are too slow in the reaction on the brake you get big problems normally because the two-liner can get bigger cravats with the higher pressure they get more
dynamic and so normally the collapses are a bit more difficult to handle than on a tree-line glider and as higher the aspect ratio as more power and stronger feeling you get it means to fly in a strong terminal I not speak about 2-3 meter I speak about 8 to 10 meter then you get a too extreme feeling what means it's not fun anymore and to handle a 10 meter terminal
It needs a lot of practice. Sometimes I feel like a beginner, but I think I can handle it quite well. But I do my 150 hours on a two-liner in a year, 300 hours on the normal year I did in the last 20 years. So it's bit of experience. And the other side, the second point, I think it's also important to watch forward.
not stop clearly the development. It needs new products, we have to focus on new products, but to find solutions together. That means what I really hope for the future, that there is a bigger conversation between top pilots, competition pilots, athletes and manufacturers. I know there is conversations, but sometimes not enough.
Cm (38:57.974)
I also like to have a better conversation between compilots and organizers to get a better feeling from each other. What we can improve, what are the problems and together we become more strong. At the moment I was in some pilot committees, I was also in development, but sometimes I get the feeling the other part of the conversation it's quite...
sure what they do and they not really get the message we send. And that's why I hope that we can get better in the future.
Gavin McClurg (39:41.659)
Good stuff. Craig will appreciate it. Thank you for sharing all this. It's timely. This debate is raging pretty hard right now on social media, which is in some ways kind of disheartening to see, but hopefully it will lead to good things. But thanks for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it.
Cm (39:59.08)
Thanks for talking with you, Kevin. All the best as an athlete and an organizer. See you soon.
