It’s not often you get to be credited for creating a whole new sport! “Flaring” or parakiting is all the rage in some parts of the world and my guest for today’s show Benni Bölli- inventor, designer, and passionate pilot is the head developer for Flare, which makes the Moustache and the Line. “Parakiting” is simply the combination of a kitesurfing wing and a paragliding wing. Dynamic, fast, wicked playful- it takes soaring to a whole new level and makes playing on dunes and cliffs wildly fun again. Benni shares his personal journey in the sport and explains how the Flare system works, including the use of the accelerator and the dynamic nature of the wing, and the advantages and potential risks of flying with the Flare wing. Benni emphasizes the importance of understanding the system and taking proper precautions. Bennie explores the differences between parakites and traditional paragliders, including the use of a flare system and the ability to maintain lift in low wind conditions. And he explains the mechanics of flaring and how it affects the angle of attack and glide path of the wing. We also discuss the potential future of parakites in the paragliding community and the importance of caution and proper training when flying with parakites.
Photo Hermann ErberPhoto Hermann ErberPhoto Hermann ErberPhoto Hermann Erber
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The Flare wing combines elements of paragliding and kitesurfing, offering a dynamic and playful flying experience.
The Flare system allows for increased control and versatility, with the ability to change the angle of attack and fly at different speeds.
Proper understanding of the Flare system and wing design is crucial for safe and enjoyable flying.
Ground handling and familiarizing oneself with the wing’s behavior are important steps before flying with the Flare wing. Flaring is a unique sport that involves using parakites for soaring.
Parakites have a flare system that allows pilots to change the angle of attack and maintain lift in low wind conditions.
Flaring involves adjusting the angle between the leading edge and trailing edge of the wing to control the glide path.
Parakites are more efficient for soaring than traditional paragliders, but may not be as suitable for long-distance cross-country flights.
Proper training and caution are essential when flying with parakites to avoid accidents.
Titles
The Concept and Design of the Flare Wing
The Flare System: Control and Versatility Understanding the Mechanics of Flaring
The Benefits of Using Parakites for Soaring
Sound Bites
“Yeah, why mustache?”
“All the best companies are starting from a joke.”
“So I would say it’s very dynamic.”
“Flying gliders is just so much more efficient than going with a paraglider on cross-country flights.”
“The mustache is made to basically stay up. So your arm position where you fly for your best glide ratio, I would say, is totally different than on the line.”
“The Dutch flying community, they are unique in this.”
Chapters
00:00Introduction and Background
05:56Benni’s Journey and Role in Flare Kiteboarding
10:59The Concept and Design of the Flare Wing
18:39The Flare System: Control and Versatility
22:09Understanding the Dynamic Nature of the Flare Wing
26:57Safety Precautions and Proper Training for Flare Wing Flying
31:24Troubleshooting Technical Issues
32:22Understanding the Mechanics of Flaring
36:19Transitioning from Paragliding to Flaring
43:00The Growing Popularity of Flaring in the Netherlands
45:09Differentiating Between Mustache and Line Wings
Gavin McClurg (00:24.556)
Benny, great to have you on the mayhem. It's only taken us many, many, many, many months to put this together. But thanks for making it happen. last minute, and congratulations on moving into your new place there. It looks nice.
Benni (00:38.798)
Thank you for having me and I checked before it was pretty much exactly 12 months one year since our last conversation so
Gavin McClurg (00:48.462)
Sometimes I was surfing through my inbox, which is always a disaster, this morning and went, my god, I completely forgot about this one. So yeah, well thanks for making it happen and thanks for doing this late. I understand it's 10 o 'clock your time, it's two o 'clock my time, a little more reasonable. But tell me a little bit about, we talked very briefly this morning about flare and the mustache and skywalk.
Get us up to speed. Tell us about your personal journey a little bit, how you ended up doing what you're doing. And then there's a lot of people listening who want to know more about this wing and these concepts.
Benni (01:28.421)
For sure.
I'm 35 years old. am based in Germany, just to get things started. I started in Skywalk, in the Skywalk group 2013. But I started as a team rider for Flysurfer, which is one brand from the Skywalk group, 2011. now I'm over 13 years ago. And yeah, basically I started...
tightsurfing when I was 10, so pretty long ago. Then I started paragliding when I was 16. So yeah, I was always really enthusiastic about stuff flying around. Let it be model planes, paragliders, gliders, whatever. Just if it flies, it's for me. So yeah.
I got in touch with the system, let's call it the Paraglide system, actually at my first event as a fly server team rider, which was a snow kite event, where I met Armin Harich, who is one of the founders from the Skywalk group. Basically he founded Skywalk back then. So yeah, he basically showed me, because he knew I was also paragliding.
and he showed me this new concept where he basically modified an old kite from him and put some risers on them and changed the bridle and he was paramotoring it on skis and then you know it was a 15 meter and he was like just speeding up before takeoff and then just hit the brakes and just went straight up and I was like okay yeah I want to do something with it you know and I
Benni (03:31.361)
Basically straight realized that this is that this could do something to the sport I didn't know at the time what it would do, but I knew it would have an impact at one day And yeah, basically I did my bachelor Internship with fly surfer and skywalk And I wrote my my thesis about the riser system from the now
now Mustache back then, was, we did not call it Mustache back then. And yeah, so basically they offered me a job because they seemed happy about my thesis and what I did during my internship. And I ended up in the paragliding department as a test pilot. And I learned a lot from Alex, Alex Helvart, who's doing some paragliders now.
And yeah, I spent with him two years until 2015 testing and designing the wings. yeah, then we had one developer from Flysurfer going from full time to part time. And my passion, or I felt during those two years that my passion is more on the kiting side of things. And I wanted to develop race kites.
because back then at the time I really loved to kite race on the hydrofoils which is by the way in the Olympic Games the first time now so I'm also pretty excited about this but yeah and yeah basically I then switched full -time to to flysurfing kiteboarding at one point and started designing all the foil kites for
Gavin McClurg (05:08.688)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (05:12.889)
Yeah, cool.
Benni (05:27.195)
And that's basically also where I'm at now. I'm in charge for the full kite range and I'm also head of development now for Fles for kiteboarding. And if I have some time left, I design the wings for FLIR. So that's a bit the story behind me basically how I got where I am now.
Gavin McClurg (05:56.441)
How much of your design, natural talent or ability comes from your background in kitesurfing versus flying versus paragliding? My background is also in kitesurfing. It's pretty interesting how many pilots come from sailing, kitesurfing. There's quite a nice crossover, just understanding Lee and power and the power window and all these things.
I don't know of too many designers that have come through that path like you have. Maybe there's lots, I just, I'm not
Benni (06:35.949)
I think the combination from my early start in both sports basically, like I started cutting when I was 10, paragliding when I was 16 or 14, but I my license when I was 16. I developed, I would say, a good feeling for both kind of wings and I think
This is the main part which or where I'm benefiting from now. And at the time when I was learning with Alex, I really tried to understand what or which parameters can be used from the kite, for example, in paragliding and vice versa. And basically the mustache is the perfect combination between both systems.
For me, would say it was... The moustache would not be the same as it is now if I would have only been kite surfing or only would have been paragliding. So I think the combination of those two sports was the key for fully understanding the system and really implementing or adjusting all the single parameters, which you need to design a good wing.
in the best way to fit the target group, would say. Which we did not know really who was the target group for the moustache at the beginning. But in the end we really focused on soaring. But yeah, something we will for sure talk about later.
Gavin McClurg (08:22.15)
Yeah, why mustache?
Benni (08:26.305)
Yeah, mustache, it's actually a pretty funny story because we... So basically we launched the brand in February 2022 and two years before I said, okay, I will freeze the design now more or less and we'll do some longevity tests and some, you know, just give a few wings out to people.
get some feedback, see how the wing is changing, how the trim is changing. For this field test I would say I wanted to have something funny on the wing to just not give them blank white wings or whatever because there was no flair brand at this time so there was no brand, was no name, was no nothing.
We just knew we want to bring it somehow to the market. yeah, at one point I was like saying to colleague who came in my office and I was just thinking about stuff or what to put on the wing. yeah, we thought about a funny mustache or whatever. You know, we just have something that the people talk about it because it's so different. And also when you see them flying.
it is different and so we wanted to kind of do something funny and then at the end or at the end pretty soon people were like talking about the moustache already so we were not giving the wing the name but the community actually so the wing was already known from the prototypes as the moustache so yeah it was basically set the name for
for the first Parachute. So yeah, everything came from a joke actually.
Gavin McClurg (10:31.015)
All the best companies are starting from a joke. That's perfect. So your audience has no idea what we're talking about. Let's imagine that for a moment. Many of them do, of course, but let's just imagine they don't. Why is Flair different? What's different? What's the same? What's the concept? Why are so many people talking about it? And why do they look so damn fun?
Benni (10:56.303)
Yeah, so let's talk about the paraclide system or in this way the flare system. So basically, I think everyone knows the basic concept of a paraglider. So we have basically our brake lines attached to the trailing edge and then the accelerator. Basically, if I activate the accelerator, I pull down the leading edge.
and change the angle of attack of the wing. So basically what we're doing with the flare system is exactly the same, but the opposite way. So on the paraglider we cannot change the length of the C level or the B level depending on two or three liners, but we can pull down the A level and accordingly the B level in between.
With the flare system, the A level is exactly the same length all the time, but when we give hands up, then we extend the B into C level and the break. So we basically go lower in angle of attack and fly faster when we give our hands up, we put hands up. And the same goes if we put hands down, we increase the angle of attack. yeah, so basically
brought the D -Power from kiting so where you can get rid of the power and release basically a trailing edge to get less angle of attack to get rid of the power we brought this into paragliding and the main advantages from this system are basically you can use your accelerator from paragliding you can use it already on the ground because
When you have a high wind launch on a paraglider, you're launching the wing and you have instantly full power of the wing. And when you're flying, then you can basically activate your accelerator and accelerate forward. But with the Flare system, you can just release the brakes, the wing will just inflate slowly and will not pull you because you are not pulling.
Benni (13:21.836)
So the trailing edge is open, we have low angle of attacks, so we can handle way, way more wind on the ground because we can use our accelerator already standing on the ground and not only while flying, which gives you way more possibilities of top landing, positioning yourself, you know, if we are rich soaring, for example. So yeah, it's just a super, super fun system.
You have to get used to it for sure. It's not, you know, just for a paraglider it's not only to hook you in and you'll be totally fine. So you would need to get used to it. But from our experience, kiders, like really experienced kiders who had no experience in paragliding and they have the right spot on a nice dune, you know, no rocks, but just a nice dune, not too high, good wind. They...
they are not having a too hard time getting used to the parry drawing system because they know the sense of de -power already. So yeah. That's basically the main concept from the flare system and to make the flare system really work you need to do some tweaks to the canopy itself because
It's not really working of just buying a flare system and putting it on any other wing. It's not working that easy actually. And to find the best combination of wing and riser system, let's say, took me quite some time.
Gavin McClurg (15:10.211)
So take me through again, the kind of D -power power that it mirrors, how kite surf works. In other words, when you're pulling in the bar, you're increasing the pull, you're increasing the power. When you let it go, you're decreasing the power.
Benni (15:28.212)
Yes, exactly.
Exactly. how a flare system looks, we have the brake handle and from the brake handle there are two lines going away. So the first line is the brake line just going through a trailing edge of the wing, just like a standard paraglider. And then there's a second line which is going through a pulley on the sea level.
So there is a pulley system on the C level which basically is splitting your input from the brake by one third. So one third of your brake input is translated to the C level. And then from the C level there is another line going through the B level which is already or again splitting or dividing your input by two again from the C. So one third
of your brake input is translated to the C and one sixth of your brake input is going to the B level. So basically when we D power for 60 cm, 30 cm we gain 30 cm of C length and 15, no, still a bit 20 cm C length and 10 cm on the B and the opposite way around.
So what we're doing, we're changing the angle of attack of the wing the whole time. it's like... So for all the pilots who fly two -liners, it's the same as you would fully accelerate and pull it down your A and fly your wing with the B level. So that's basically the exact same thing. So you're then changing only the angle of attack and not really the camber of the profile because you're not pulling the brake.
Benni (17:21.344)
But at one point with the flare system, so when we keep pulling, pulling, at one point the brake is also activating and then we change angle of attack plus camber if we are basically approaching the slow speed position.
So basically we can decide if we want to translate our speed into height or our height into speed at our fingertips basically. So if you think about it in paragliding, if you go into a steep turn you don't really have the possibility to then stay down, keep your speed and decide when you want to go
you will go up anyway. And that's the cool thing which gives you just so much more possibilities playing with the Ridge, especially during soaring, but also while speed flying. But for speed flying, have now another product line. yeah, it's just a super, super fun system.
Yeah, for all the kiters, like you said, it's exactly like you have your kite bar in your hand, and that's how you also steer.
Gavin McClurg (18:52.65)
and
does this translate into a wing that you said, it sounds incredibly playful to me. That's what kites are, you know, on the water and the snow, you know, soaring. you end up with something that translates to a lot more energy or is it more carvey? we more, you know, or is it kind of skateboarding or is it, what would be the analogy here? You know, is, I'm trying to,
people who have only flown or maybe even only kite surfed, what does it feel like? How is it different than me going out on a mini wing and standard mini wing and soaring?
Benni (19:37.452)
So I would say it's very dynamic. the dynamic you can pick up during a turn when you put hands up is just crazy. So when you go on a turn with hands up, you take up so much speed. And then whether you can just keep your hands up and take the speed and go far and flare.
or you pull the brakes and you get this full energy, not 100 % from it for sure, but most of it back again and you gain the height again, which makes it a very dynamic wing, especially the small sizes, because the small sizes are for sure also more agile. So maybe about the sizing, which is also a good point right now, is that in paragliding you
you have your takeoff weight, whatever it is, 100 kilos, including your equipment, and you're flying whatever an L -wing, but you are flying the L -wing. But with parry kiting or flaring, it's more like kiting where you change your wing size with the wind strength. So if it's more wind, you just go down to a smaller wing and vice versa. So that's about the sizing.
So you could fly your 15 meter mustache with 100 kilos, which would be way, way, more dynamic than your 22 or 26 meter. And that's also an important point to understand if you get into flaring. Also, if you already flown mini wings, you will get so much more speed with the same size or if you compare it to the same size paraguider.
that it's better to start with a bigger size. So let's say you flew already a 15 mini wing and you're comfortable with it. It's better to get the 18, start with the 18 because you will have the same speed as your 15.
Benni (21:50.91)
but you will have way more dynamic turns because of this energy retention you have available. So I hope you get a bit of an idea how the wing flies.
Gavin McClurg (22:09.078)
Is there any, from a traditional standpoint, are there any downsides? Are there any warning? By dynamic, that means to me, this is a lot more fun, but is it a lot more speed and energy and risk too? What would be the non -marketing way to tackle that?
Benni (22:35.881)
If we're talking about steep turns, let's say, let's keep it for, let's compare it to a deep spiral. With a traditional paraglider, if you really go into a deep spiral, you will get a lot of G -forces, but compared, your sink rate is not crazy high.
So let's say you have like, you go in a spiral with like a descent rate of like 15 meters per second, you already have proper G -force where an untrained person really needs to focus, you know, that you're not blacking out basically, which is not really the case with the mustache because the mustache, your sync rate is way higher compared to your G -force and your turning speed.
So you would basically, because you will do the deep spiral with hands up, so in your full speed position. So you will go more down instead of really going in a rotation. And that's why you can gain, or you can have way higher descent rates with way less G -forces. And that's what you basically, so when you're used to your G -forces on the paraglider,
and you're trying to do the same spiral or to get the same g -forces with a moustache you're descending with like 35 to 40 meters per second basically which then results in like crazy loss in height in a very short period of time which can be dangerous because if you don't know how the wing takes up the speed you know the ground gets close really fast so that's one point
Benni (24:36.115)
That's one point. What's the next point?
So that's the dynamic side of things. But then also in slow flight, I would say there is a disadvantage to the classic paraglider. Because when we pull the brakes, we're constantly pulling also B and C down. So we are constantly also increasing the angle of attack on the leading edge itself. Because in a paraglider, the leading edge does not
get any pull on the B when we pull the brakes basically. the angle of attack on the leading edge basically stays the same. Which is not true because we're flying slower so the angle of attack will change anyway. you know what I mean. So with the flare system we have both effects. So we are increasing the angle of attack on the leading edge because we're pulling down the B all the time.
Gavin McClurg (25:29.593)
Yeah.
Benni (25:40.807)
the further we go down the more we pull the B and we go slower so the angle of attack is again increased so basically what it means that the airflow is separating a bit quicker from the leading edge top sail than with a normal paraglider
So your overall stall speed will be a bit higher because the point of separation or the stall speed is higher because the airflow separates a bit easier from the leading edge because we increase the angle of attack on the leading edge a lot. Which does not mean that it's dangerous because you really feel it. So it gets really hard.
on the bottom or in your slow speed position. So you can really feel you're close to the stall point and you better be careful basically. Which is also the case with the paraglider but the stall speed is for sure a bit higher if you compare the same size paraglider to the same size moustache.
Benni (26:57.093)
Those are the two
Gavin McClurg (26:57.756)
So it's pretty critical.
Benni (27:02.636)
Go ahead.
Gavin McClurg (27:05.534)
I was just saying, it sounds pretty critical then to the, when you first grab one of these wings, you've got to understand the differences and probably work in slowly to understand the potential for height loss really fast and then the necessity to keep your airspeed up.
Benni (27:34.529)
Yes, yeah, so basically what we did and also still do is we do, let's say, a safety call. So you can order the mustache directly on our homepage. But if you're not coming from a partner from us, you will basically get a call from us and we will just chat with you, talk to you, what your experience is.
if you maybe, or if we think you should maybe get a different wing like size wise. So if you have experience in paragliding since whatever one year and you order 13 moustache, we would maybe, you know, put our weight to it and send you 15, 18. But no, it's basically that we want to make sure that people really understand the system and have watched our videos.
and in the best case even take a small course, take a small introduction with our pro partners and they will basically show you all the points you need to get safely into the sport of flaring. yeah, basically if you get a wing or if you try a wing, use it while ground handling first.
do whatever 10, 15, 20 minutes of ground handling, feel the stall point, know how it behaves with the stall point. We also have some markings on the riser where we have basically the best glide position, I mean full speed positions anyway, fully arms up. But for the beginning, the best glide position marking is a really good reference where you're basically in the middle of
range of motion. But yeah, take your time, ground handling for sure, because ground handling anyway you get such a good feeling for a wing and you could anticipate how it would react in the air quite well.
Gavin McClurg (29:59.688)
Benny, on your side here, my house, we're at 30 minutes in, you're frozen and the video has been kind of freezing a bit. The audio will be fine, but I think what would help us is if we turned your video off, if you can hear me, I'm kind of frozen up here.
Gavin McClurg (30:24.006)
It's probably just an internet connection thing.
Benni (30:35.19)
So I don't know if it's my connection or your connection.
Gavin McClurg (30:39.362)
It seems to be, but I don't know. It shouldn't be mine. I'm on fiber optic. It's pretty fast, but it could be. Also, if you have stuff in the background that's running, you could kill it, whatever kind of programs. Just probably free up a little bit of bandwidth. You killed everything. OK. Yeah, maybe if you could just.
Benni (30:46.774)
Mm -hmm.
Benni (30:53.548)
I killed everything.
Benni (30:59.808)
Basically, I have a WhatsApp code.
Benni (31:10.557)
is still
Benni (31:15.444)
okay now there's only chrome now it should be fine
Gavin McClurg (31:20.377)
Okay. Yeah, cool. Okay, Miles, we'll jump back in here.
Benni (31:24.108)
So it still says 72 % uploading.
Gavin McClurg (31:32.204)
72%. Yeah, so that tells me that it's probably your side. It's just a little bit slow internet. What we could do for sure is just kill your camera. You see that down at the bottom in the middle? You can just turn your camera off. That'll probably be all we need to do. I mean, it's, perfect. That should work pretty well. Cool.
Benni (31:43.989)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Gavin McClurg (31:55.701)
I don't think we haven't missed anything. I can't hear you, but I know it's recording, so it's fine. So Benny, because this is an audio podcast, the listener didn't get the benefit of watching what you're doing with your hands when you're describing, when you're pulling down, it's deflecting the breaks, but it's also deflecting the Cs and Bs.
Benni (32:01.365)
Mm -hmm.
Benni (32:13.001)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Gavin McClurg (32:22.212)
But you were saying, just want to make sure we don't confuse, you were saying that's increasing the angle of attack. In my mind, that's decreasing the angle of attack. When we're accelerating a wing, hitting our A's, we're increasing the angle of attack. Is this just semantics, or am I misunderstanding something?
Benni (32:44.748)
So basically, in paragliding when we pull down our A's, we're changing the angle of incidence. the angle between, let's say, if you draw a line between leading edge and trailing edge through your wing, watching it from the side. And then we are, as a pilot, we're basically like a pendulum below our wing.
We always want to go underneath the center of lift from the wing. So if the wing moves forward, we are behind the center of lift and we're pending underneath the wing again. So to have a stable system, we want to be really straight downwards from the center of lift.
So, but what we are doing now, if we pull down the A, we are basically changing the line between leading edge and trailing edge of our wing. So we are bringing down the leading edge and the angle between the airflow and this line going through our wing is getting lower, or is getting smaller.
So basically, that's our angle of attack. So our glide path, our glide path, or the angle of attack is the glide path, or the angle between the glide path and this line going through the leading edge and trailing edge of our wing. So if we decrease this angle, then we need to go faster, because we still need to create the lift of whatever weight.
which needs to be supported. So we're accelerating. So now the wing creates the lift of let's say 100 kilos with a way higher speed. And the same goes if we increase the angle of attack, we still only need 100 kilos of lift.
Benni (35:05.089)
but we can go way slower. it's
Basically the polar of the wing is dependent from the speed we go and we want to change the speed if we hit the accelerator. And that's why with the flare system on the Mustache it's basically we're doing the same thing but we're doing it on the trailing edge. So we're not pulling down the leading edge like on the paraglider to change this angle but we're releasing
that trailing edge up so we're still changing the angle in the same direction as we would pull down the A on the paraglider. So accelerating is hands up and going slower is hands down and if you tried the first time it really feels intuitive. Within the first 10 minutes of ground handling you will feel
I mean you will not feel everything from the wing but you get a pretty pretty good idea of how the wing would feel flying
Gavin McClurg (36:19.773)
What's it like, it's great to understand it that way, what's it like to jump back and forth? You're flying the mustache for a few days and then you go jump on your XC glider. Is it rattle your cage a little bit or has it become pretty natural?
Benni (36:41.03)
I'm actually the wrong person to ask it because I did not touch my XC glider since I think now four years I think Yeah, because I'm actually I'm actually only only flaring anymore If I want to go XC I basically just started flying gliders and
Gavin McClurg (36:44.573)
Hahaha
Gavin McClurg (36:52.815)
Wow, really?
Gavin McClurg (37:04.061)
Fascinating. that... is that... sorry.
Benni (37:09.688)
So flying gliders is just so much more efficient than going with a paraglider on cross -country flights. And yeah, I mean, when I really flew a lot in the beginning when I started with Skywalk, I for sure flew all the two -liner prototypes we had and we went on cross -country flights. But it never really caught me, it never gave me
Yeah, I would say this adrenaline kick. But what gave me this kick is flying on the five meter dune with a 15 meter mustache and just being able to fly so precise with whatever you know, like half a meter or even centimeters off the dune with 60 Ks and always being able to
pull the brakes and just take off and have this safety margin of this extra speed. Which you kind of have also in paragliding, but it's a different dimension of this energy retention you get with the mustache. So, yeah, to go back to your question, I did touch a paraglider.
Gavin McClurg (38:26.743)
Wow!
Benni (38:34.958)
A few weeks ago when we were on a test trip in Denmark I flew the ENSO from a friend and yeah, first of all launching in because it was pretty windy. I mean, I know it's fine I could still fly without accelerator, but it was still windy and if you if you're used to the to the flare system
where you can basically, you know, you can pull up a 22 meter in 20 knots of wind, you know, if you have space and nothing is tangled then there is no issue at all. But if you just, you know, pull up a 22 meter Enso in 20 knots of wind, you better know what you're doing. this, yeah, I mean, for me,
For me, there is not really a way back, I would say, for the flying I do. For cross -country flying, 100%, 100 % the current two -liner designs out there are, let's say, overall the better system for cross -country. Because there is one more point I did not mention before, which can be also a bit irritating at the beginning when you start flaring. If you're a little bit underpowered,
Gavin McClurg (39:39.115)
Wow.
Benni (40:03.918)
So you have to basically scratch for lift and scratch to stay up. Then it gets pretty exhausting with the mustache because you're basically holding 1 sixth of the load from the B level and 1 third of the load from the C level in your hands all the time.
Gavin McClurg (40:23.59)
okay. So they're really suited to flying in ridge lift and wind. mean, I would assume it's nicer when it's laminar wind, but you want some wind with these things. If that, unless you're just descending to, you know, on a speed run or something.
Benni (40:38.998)
Yes, I mean you
Benni (40:43.828)
Exactly, So that's also why we have two different products. So we have the mustache for soaring and the line for speed flying. So the mustache is made to basically stay up. So your arm position where you fly for your best glide ratio, I would say, is totally different than on the line. So the line is basically made to go really steep and really fast.
and have the possibility to basically glide away from the slope or do a glide out or whatever or have a really flat take off so where you need the glide ratio and then you drop into a line or whatever but the line is not made to fly or to fly for a long time in your best glide ratio because this sweet spot where you need to fly
with your brakes is really low. you basically, you're on the edge of not pulling down the brakes, but more pushing down the brakes like before landing. you, just before stalling the wing, you're basically pushing down the brakes. And that's really exhausting over time. So if you're starting with the line, you need a lot of wind and a really good, rich.
to have a lot of updraft that you don't need to fly that low all the time. So you want to fly the mustache and especially parakites I would say more powered so whether it is a bigger size in the same wind speed or a smaller size in more wind but you want to have this extra of lift basically.
you want to leave or you want to use the potential to go full speed with arms up because otherwise you can't use it. If you can't get up you can't use your height and translate it to speed.
Gavin McClurg (43:00.481)
I hadn't realized, I love that the company is Flare and that's actually the name of the, I mean, it sounds like this is now a unique sport called Flaring. I hadn't realized that.
Benni (43:13.582)
It is, it really is. And especially I would say in the Netherlands. So I was on the test trip, I think three weeks ago in the Netherlands. And I did not see a standard paraglider flying there. But I have seen like 25 parakeets. Yeah. So for soaring, like in Denmark,
Gavin McClurg (43:29.756)
Really?
Benni (43:42.766)
In there's still a lot of German pilots go to Denmark because it's just so easy flying. There are so many soaring spots, always laminar wind. You have space for ground handling, lot of travel groups, paragliding travel groups, ground handling courses go up to Denmark. And there is not 100 % parakeets yet, but in the Netherlands...
there is already I would say 75 % with a parakite system. So there is little cloud now, they released the wing and they also released already a riser to basically upgrade your other little cloud wings you already have to a certain extent.
Gavin McClurg (44:18.212)
Really?
Benni (44:41.39)
For sure not with the same range as you get with other other wings, but you get basically It's nice to get into into flaring into paracliding because you don't get the full range or not as Extreme range I would say but it gives you the idea how this how the whole system works It's a little bit of a step over from paracliding to flaring And then they're just more more radical
designs I would say with you know old race kites modified with risers and it's like Netherlands is yeah I would say that the Netherlands or the Dutch flying community they are they are unique I would say in this yeah so no but
Benni (45:37.516)
We are very, very optimistic for the future of soaring. Doesn't matter if it's really only inland soaring or coastal soaring, but perakite system is really, really, or outperforms a perakite for sure.
Gavin McClurg (45:56.031)
And you mentioned that, you know, right now an Enzo standard two -liner is still, you know, totally the way to go if you're flying distance. Could that change with this system? Is there a way that there's a tweak in the mustache down the line in the future that would, yeah, it's quite interesting because there was an article in the last Cross Country Magazine with Honor and Hamard.
the French champion saying that basically, the shark nose two line concept, the current Enzo really can't be improved. They've kind of hit the wall there. There's little things, little adjustments, but the Enzo three has been out now for what, seven, eight years. Could the parakite system be
the next, you the way forward potentially.
Benni (46:58.414)
That's a really really good question and I don't have the answer yet but for my or my vision of where the whole parikiding sport could go or in which disciplines it could go I don't really see too much in cross -country because you're flying
The goal is to fly as long as you can basically in cross -country to go as far as you can. If we break it down to the basics, so you can't make a record cross -country flight in three hours. You will have to exceed basically 10 hours of flying. But then it's just very physical because you want to stay
You want to glide far, but you don't want to go down in a way. You want to go forward. And with the moustache and the parakites in general, it's more like at one point we want the lift to really break down, that we go down and not forward. We want to stay on the ground and then translate this energy to height again.
It's a bit of a different requirement you're asking of the wing because as I said an ENSO is made or a two -liner cross country wing is made to go forward to have the best possible glide range or glide ratio also in full speed bar and that's not what we want soaring.
on a dune for example because we want to keep dragging our feet in the sand and if a gust hits you and we get more lift we want to find a way to get rid of this lift exactly and that's what you don't need for a cross -country flying and that's why i don't see a too big of a potential in cross -country with the system as it is now not saying in five years we whatever
Gavin McClurg (48:59.69)
Sure.
Gavin McClurg (49:06.836)
Dump it. Yeah, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (49:22.9)
Gotcha.
Benni (49:26.563)
have an idea and yeah or someone else has an idea. Yeah there are many many smart designers out there so maybe someone else.
Gavin McClurg (49:38.804)
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. We can never really predict that kind of stuff, can we? Final question, because I know we're up against a time stop here for both of us, but is this wing? You mentioned that if you come from a kitesurfing background, it's very intuitive. It feels very familiar. You can learn it really fast.
Is there, are there groups, is this a wing that isn't appropriate for a certain kind of pilot? For example, a 10 hour pilot who's just barely getting their novice rating. Is this, isn't it an advanced wing? Is it an advanced concept? It doesn't really sound like it, but are there any warnings we need to put out there in terms of...
you know, for the pilot community who's inspired as I am from your stories.
Benni (50:35.662)
I would not put a general warning out there, but I would rather give advice for new pilots or kiters who want to get into flaring or parry kiting. Take your time and not just...
get a second hand wing somewhere and just go flying. Take your time. Take a course or introduction from a partner and really take or go to a spot where all the, let's say all the risk factors can
eliminated I would say. mean you never can get rid of all the risk factors there will always be some risk but it's a different story if you are at a cliff launch with 20 knots or if you're standing on a sandy beach with 20 knots and can ground handle the wing up a sandy dune you know instead of being on the cliff launch and need to launch up there. So this spot is very
crucial for let's say the skill level you need to fly a parakite safely. So if you have let's say a cliff with you know some some some lips to like some some some ribs and the wind is not coming straight on but a little bit from the side so you get basically turbulences behind those those ribs going out of the ridge.
That's something which can be very, I would say
Benni (52:38.274)
Yeah, you don't really see it too good, but with the paracord you can stay down really easy. So you can fly very low to the ground and then you can go into those turbulence and then you could get a collapse for sure. yeah, so in the beginning for sure.
Take some lessons, get an introduction, watch all the videos there are, there are safety videos on our homepage or on YouTube. You will get a really good idea of the whole system, how it works. Maybe it's nothing for you, maybe it is. But yeah, overall it's a small revolution, at least for Soaring. So yeah, I'm really optimistic for the future.
Gavin McClurg (53:34.94)
Penny, we're glad there are people like you in this world. You've done something really cool with your team there. it's great to learn about this, about flaring. Like I said, I didn't know that was a sport. That's terrific. And some of the videos I've watched are just awesome.
It really looks fun. So I look forward to getting my hands on one of these myself. thanks for sharing all this information. I really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time and staying up late and good luck,
Benni (54:10.38)
Yeah, nice having me and thank you so much and yeah, see you somewhere at Lake Kimse.
Gavin McClurg (54:19.053)
Perfect, perfect. man, that was great. Thanks a lot, I appreciate it. I think we're right on time here. if you could, when you get a chance, me some photos or I don't know, video link, wherever you want. I don't know if you've seen the shows, but you know, like we had Armand Harsch on many years ago. He was in the book actually, but you know, we'll put up a post and whatever you want to share on there, just shoot me a text or something.
Benni (54:34.658)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm.
Benni (54:45.43)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Gavin McClurg (54:48.605)
I think this will hopefully be up in a week. So of course I'll send it out to you and stuff when we get it up there.
Benni (54:51.726)
Perfect. I have one more point which I really wanted to say because... So this is now off record real quick. There were deadly accidents already with the mustache and also with the line unfortunately. But all those accidents were basically not because of the wing collapsing or the wing, you know...
Gavin McClurg (54:56.802)
Sure.
Gavin McClurg (55:08.322)
K. K.
Benni (55:19.944)
staying in the spiral or whatever but basically the pilots being overconfident and exceeded their skill level because the wing gave them so much confidence because the wing is so easy to fly and you can get yourself you can position yourself super easy on the ridge somewhere you know and then you know you can get into situation, lead situation and get a really strong collapse or whatever
So there is, I don't know how to put it there or put it in the podcast, there is, or for us, what we think the threat or the biggest or the most dangerous part of the whole parakites is that the people get overconfident really quick.
Gavin McClurg (56:13.516)
Let's, okay, let's just record that as a separate, I'm recording right now, but the only thing is is you started it off by saying this is off the record. So let's, let.
Benni (56:19.85)
Mm
Benni (56:24.074)
Exactly, exactly. I just want to put out or make clear that the most dangerous part about parakiting is that the pilots get really confident and overconfident really quick. And that's where the accidents happen or can happen. So what I want to say is basically
you get more range or you can handle more wind while soaring, but you should use this extra range for safety, you know, if the wind increases and not push yourself or place yourself already on the upper limit, you know, or you know what I mean. Yeah. So I'm not 100 % sure how I would best say it, but that's the message I want to, I want to.
Yeah, somehow put out there.
Gavin McClurg (57:23.759)
I think you've said it. Miles, this is how we'll handle that. I'm gonna give you the question, but you just answer it. You've already just answered it. You've done it just fine. So, Miles, let's just drop this in there. So, Benny, would there be anything here at the end that you'd wanna put out as just a message of advice for people getting into flaring?
