In this wide-ranging conversation with Advance test pilot and former Swiss Champion Michael Maurer we discuss various aspects of paragliding, including the challenges and dangers of being a test pilot, the influence of family on flying careers, the importance of competition, and the pursuit of flow in flying. We also touch on advancements in paragliding technology, the future of the sport in Switzerland and across the world, and the significance of training and preparation for competitions. Michael shares personal anecdotes about his experiences and reflections on his career, emphasizing the balance between risk and learning in the sport. Michael also reflects on what he’s learned watching his brother compete nine times in the Red Bull XAlps and growing up with Chrigel’s tutelage and encouragement, and how his own journey in the sport could impact how he prepares his three sons for their own adventures in flying. There’s a lot here, enjoy and Happy New Year!
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Paragliding is inherently dangerous, especially in testing. Step-by-step learning is crucial for safety. Family influence can shape a flying career significantly. Brotherly dynamics can provide both support and competition. Finding flow is essential for performance in flying. Setting small goals can help maintain motivation. Experience is key to navigating risks in paragliding. Advancements in technology are shaping the future of the sport. Training and preparation are vital for success in competitions. The joy of flying often comes from shared experiences.
Sound Bites
“I learned to go step by step.” “I was bored and watching TV a lot.” “I have a living user manual.”
Chapters
00:00 Holiday Greetings and Weather Reflections 02:54 The Life of a Test Pilot 05:37 Understanding the Risks of Paragliding 08:38 Influence of Family in Flying Career 11:41 Brotherly Dynamics in Paragliding 14:20 Competition and Personal Growth 17:16 The Psychology of Risk in Extreme Sports 20:28 Reflections on Recent Competitions 23:20 Finding Flow in Paragliding 26:17 Navigating Challenges in Test Flying 28:52 The Evolution of Paragliding Equipment 36:17 The Evolution of Paragliding Technology 37:39 Family and Flying: A Personal Journey 41:22 Reflections on a Flying Career 43:26 Navigating Risks in Paragliding 46:13 Goals and Aspirations for the Future 49:02 Training and Competitions: The Path Ahead 50:02 SIV Training and Wing Management 56:09 The Impact of Competition Wings on Technology 59:41 Memorable Flights and Special Moments
Gavin McClurg (00:11.713)
Michael, happy holidays. We're a couple days before Christmas and you've got a house full of folks and so do I. You got three boys, so I appreciate you carving out some time in the probably a busy time of year for you and having a chat. How are you?
Michael Maurer (00:28.398)
Hi Gavin, nice to meet you here. I'm good. It's as you said, it's a full house and almost every evening a good dinner. And it's the my heavy time of the year. yeah, exactly. So I enjoy it even though it's like this Christmas stress kind of.
Gavin McClurg (00:40.182)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (00:47.766)
You've put on some weight.
Gavin McClurg (00:57.56)
Sure.
Michael Maurer (00:58.68)
But it's also a nice time of the year. But this year it's not much snow outside, so it's not the same feeling. still, it's time for holidays and enjoying the snow, what we have, and go skiing and flying, whatever I like in the winter.
Gavin McClurg (01:20.854)
Yeah, I know Europe is having a similar, we don't have any snow over here. We've just this week gotten our first series of storms and it's, this is in Fahrenheit, but it's 40 degrees outside right now. This is a very cold, typically cold part of the country and it's just been so warm. This storm, half of it was rain. It's been very bizarre. It's been a weird one so far. Hopefully it'll chill up and get white.
Michael Maurer (01:44.738)
Hmm.
Michael Maurer (01:50.711)
Yeah, it's kind of similar here. It's warm and like this south wind fern, which is... It was actually quite good flying conditions the last few days or weeks, but it's actually not what we're looking for in winter, but we take it. Yeah, but it's way too warm. So it's one layer less in general than normally we needed.
Gavin McClurg (01:57.154)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (02:09.687)
Yeah, right.
Gavin McClurg (02:18.452)
The weather's getting scary, isn't it? It's getting more more bizarre every year. What does the winter typically look like for you? Is it still, is it more testing than in the summer? You're a test pilot for advance. How long you been doing that?
Michael Maurer (02:36.448)
No, I started testing at that one since in 2013. So it's 13 years this next summer actually, 12 and a half year. Normally I was flying the whole year and in winter it was the kind of busiest time to finish wings to be ready for next spring sail.
Gavin McClurg (02:45.772)
Wow, 12 years.
Michael Maurer (03:05.578)
sales in the spring and now the last two years I changed a little bit also to the office and yeah with the family I don't like to travel for weeks to test in like Tenerife to finish wings in the good thermals so I changed a bit to the office do more harness development as well and yeah fly as small as
much as possible in winter here, which can be also very nice, more soaring conditions or like weak thermals and quite short thermal windows. So it's interesting to make the best out of the day.
Gavin McClurg (03:51.756)
Does the Nissan stay open all winter? Do they run that funicular?
Michael Maurer (03:55.893)
No, they close. They are open till mid of November and they will open again approximately end of April. Something like that, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (04:06.939)
okay.
Michael, if someone that doesn't know you at all runs into you in Fruitigan, you're at the grocery store or something, and you start up a conversation, kind like you and I had at the bottom of the Nissan during the race during the X-OPS this summer, assuming that person doesn't know you like I did, and we're not necessarily gonna talk about paragliding, and they ask you what you do, how would you answer that?
Michael Maurer (04:35.374)
It almost never happened. I don't talk much actually with people I don't know. So unless they talk to me, so I answer back. yeah, but I would say I'm a test pilot for paragliders and normally that gives a good base for a conversation. So they ask about
Gavin McClurg (04:39.34)
Hahaha
You
Michael Maurer (05:02.51)
And mostly first question is, oh, isn't it dangerous? And I can explain or I will explain how it works. yeah, basically that's the way it goes.
Gavin McClurg (05:06.892)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (05:19.064)
How would you answer that? Is it dangerous?
Michael Maurer (05:22.478)
Yes it is. Paragliding in general is dangerous. Testing itself is for sure more dangerous than just flying around with the wing you know. You fly every day and it's mostly dangerous because you're out even if it's rainy or windy and conditions can challenge yourself quite a lot.
And for sure you want to test the wing on its limit. And this is something you have to learn to find your... You have to know where your limit is and where you start to feel the limit of the wing. There are also different limits of the wing, so it's more dangerous limits and less dangerous limits, let's say. over the years you can learn this and for sure...
As always, you do some mistakes and you don't do them again, hopefully. So you learn like that.
Gavin McClurg (06:29.036)
I'm just imagining, I've never been a test pilot, but does overconfidence play kind of a role in what you do or maybe early? If it was me, you and I talked about this during the ex-ALPS, you get this kind of boost in confidence, which is good. You want that, but it can also be a little bit risky that you're in this kind of...
Michael Maurer (06:37.516)
Yeah.
Michael Maurer (06:57.688)
Mm-hmm.
Gavin McClurg (06:58.324)
Nothing can get me in mode. Does that play a role in test and being a test pilot that I'm not going to screw this up. I'm a test pilot. do this all the time.
Michael Maurer (07:08.258)
Yeah, it can be, but mostly it happens in competitions where you have like, let's say one chance, you have to follow the leaders, you have to push somewhere where it is not confident to fly. And in testing you can go step by step or that's what I learned from Hegel. He taught me to go step by step. the good thing is for
To test the wing we have time, can actually take us time to go step by step and that means if we are not comfy we don't have to do it that day, let's say. In the competition if you don't do it that day you may be out of the comp final wrestle and this is a good point about testing.
Gavin McClurg (08:02.552)
How did you get into flying? Was it because of your brother?
Michael Maurer (08:06.784)
Yeah, basically. I was, I don't know exactly, I 12, 13 years old when I was, let's say, I was bored. I didn't knew what to do and watching TV a lot. And he first bought me an RC sailplane. So he enabled me to fly with the RC gliders.
And I did it for a few years and then when I was 15, he was talking to my mom that I should do the school or I could do the school and he was also paying me the equipment, everything. basically, how do you call this, paved my path to flying. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I paid back everything, I hope so.
Gavin McClurg (08:57.708)
He was your sponsor.
Gavin McClurg (09:03.564)
Hahaha
Michael Maurer (09:04.078)
It was like 6000 Swiss francs. He was paying for me and it was before I was in school still. I had no money, had no chance to do that. He was working for Atmans and so he had some like a harness, used harness, used rescue and everything.
Yeah, like that I got into flying and before he took me for tandem flights a couple of times and for sure he knew it will be something I like and so it wasn't. It's something I really like or I like the most about what I do. For sure without Riggle I would not be here or where I am now in paragliding and also as a human.
Gavin McClurg (10:02.712)
How much is he, you your brother is, what shall we say, mean, he's won everything. I he's the most famous pilot in our sport. know, I always say, when people, most people, especially over here, don't know anything about paragliding. And so when I describe the X-Alps or something and I start talking about your brother, I'll say, you he's the Kelly Slater of our sport. He's won everything.
How much has his, you're nine years different, is that right? Eight years, okay. How much has his own flying trajectory impacted yours? And what I mean by that is, what you've done with your career, has it been competitions, XE flying, you guys had this amazing video, I don't remember, there's a few years ago where you flew all day together.
Michael Maurer (10:37.956)
Eight years, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (11:03.345)
How has that impacted what you have pursued in flying?
Michael Maurer (11:07.822)
It's hard to say. think the fact that I fly paraglider because of him, I don't know if I would have done it by myself with like 18 years old when I would have had the money. Probably not, but after the flying school and yeah, we flew or I could join him.
at his work as a test pilot as well. So I could always collect some some informations about how they fly, what they do and about conditions and whatever. And so it was not really like some it was not like I was learning from him. He did not teach me.
like some one-to-one lesson. It was more like we flew together. I was always flying with the best Swiss pilots, quite often, not always, but I grew up in an environment which was like the top of the sport. So this shaped me as a pilot, I think.
quite a lot. the style I fly, I think, while flying, I think that's because he took me with him to work or I was joining him also on some competitions later. And then for sure also like the steps to go higher in the categories until competition wing and he
He found a good way to...
Michael Maurer (13:13.441)
to push me, but not to push too much. So that's, cannot explain exactly why, but, or how, but it has an impact. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (13:16.568)
Not too
Gavin McClurg (13:27.352)
Is there a sense of big, mean, with nine years, or sorry, eight years, that's quite a difference. Is there kind of a big brother, you know, want to keep you safe, keep you under my wing kind of thing? Is there a, you know, hey, push, but not too much, or maybe don't be like me in a sense? I don't know. there kind of a be careful or?
Michael Maurer (13:55.166)
I think in the beginning he was not telling me to be careful here, don't do that. He was more like, yeah, try, you will see. And if I would have done something really dangerous, let's say flying in strong winds, anyway, he would have told me. I think he was not telling...
me too much to not think by myself anymore, I would say. I am the person which is pushing too much by my natural. think I need some time to get to a certain level, let's say.
It took me some time, I would say. I think he knows that and he was never afraid I will push over my limits or too far over my limits. We never spoke about maybe it's different. Yeah. I just remember once we packed my rescue, my Rogallo, and then I had to throw the reserve.
Gavin McClurg (15:10.552)
Yeah.
Michael Maurer (15:21.631)
while flying Akro, training at the infinity and one week later I was calling him again. I wish you'd it if you can show me again. After that I did it myself but I never use it anymore since then and yeah I don't know if maybe he was thinking his things but we don't talk too much about like direct stuff we are
Gavin McClurg (15:28.704)
Yeah.
Michael Maurer (15:52.234)
I think when we are flying we are both more like communicating without words.
Gavin McClurg (15:59.54)
Mm. Mm.
Is there any kind of brotherly competition between the two of you? there enough gap or there's just enough difference or, know, Kregel is Kregel. You know, not everybody can be Kregel. mean, imagine it's kind of, okay, I don't need to touch that. is there any of that between the two of you?
Michael Maurer (16:12.843)
Yeah.
the
Michael Maurer (16:21.837)
not like this. I was very happy when I met him, but it was more like he had a bad day. Somehow I was very lucky, he was always, or he is still, for me he's still a pilot, which is way ahead of my skills, let's say.
Gavin McClurg (16:34.296)
Hahaha
Michael Maurer (16:51.083)
I mean, can, maybe technically we can do the same, but he can put it on point. And that's what I miss. I can't beat as constant as he is. for me, I'm a competition. Like, how do you say that? I like competitions. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (17:15.202)
competitive.
Michael Maurer (17:19.113)
I can also say it's good, it's done. I don't push more. And even before I go to my limits, let's say. I'm not as, I don't know the English word, like strict. Yeah, yeah. So I...
Gavin McClurg (17:39.788)
Bold. Bold.
Michael Maurer (17:48.59)
I'm looking up to his constant motivation to really push at a high level. Because even though we are kind of the same skill level, still he is way more experienced and still my hero.
Gavin McClurg (18:13.452)
Yeah, that's the, he's many people's hero. He's my hero too. I don't want to make this all about your brother, but I do, we had a really cool conversation when you and I talked during the race, you know, at the bottom of the Nissan there. I think the question I phrased was, it make you nervous? Does, does.
Michael Maurer (18:18.347)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all right.
Gavin McClurg (18:38.974)
what he does, all these X-Alps, in some ways it's kind of a numbers game, right? You had a nice answer for that. Knowing the risks that he's taking doesn't make you nervous.
Michael Maurer (18:55.943)
I don't know the answer anymore, I think it kind of... doesn't... In a way, it makes me nervous, but it's not that I am afraid. He goes over his limits. I know he knows his limits very well. His abilities to push in certain conditions, so it's not that I am nervous about that. So it's more...
More often I'm nervous because like this year at the last day it was nail-biting for myself. I was always thinking like, yeah, Aron will struggle somewhere and they will overpass him. And I was like, no, it doesn't look like that. And I was like nervous he will lose, yeah. But I'm not nervous that he will.
hurt himself like for sure it can happen but it can also happen while training and that's like even even a higher risk actually and no one talks about this but he's out every day and he knows his limits exactly and yeah that's that's something maybe I also like since I remember
Gavin McClurg (19:54.476)
get hurt. Yeah.
Michael Maurer (20:21.901)
like what about flying he or since I remember about flying he was always on a on high level and pushing hard and and it's kind of normal how we we fly let's say
Gavin McClurg (20:36.888)
It would be remiss of me to not ask you when he didn't win this time. I think all of us were a little nervous. I'm on the media side of things too. What do we say? But of course, such a gentleman, he's such a sports person. He was a true gentleman about it.
but you've kind of got the inside track. So I have to ask, how is he approaching now? What did that do to his psyche? Does it just motivate him more? What are we gonna see the next time?
Michael Maurer (21:23.757)
I think he knows why. that's one big point. Maybe he didn't knew it exactly during the race, but I think so. I was watching gear and like conditions were not like difficult enough to show his skills, let's say.
Gavin McClurg (21:38.914)
By that you mean the gear.
Gavin McClurg (21:49.312)
Yeah, yeah, true.
Michael Maurer (21:52.726)
And also, I was listening to his speech a few weeks ago, and he told he was trying some different moves, and everyone was waiting for his magic move. And he never got into this flow, where he could do whatever he wants, and it works. And I think I can exactly...
Gavin McClurg (22:11.458)
Mmm.
Michael Maurer (22:21.461)
I know it for myself, if you're not in the flow sometimes, even though you have good material or you have your best conditions you can wish for, it's somehow hard or it's that point you have to learn how you get into this flow. for sure, this year, the material was quite a big point and...
Somehow he said it was one of his best races. I think he can handle it very good because he knows exactly what did. He had a very good preparation. He was ready and it was just not the material, the conditions were not fitting. The puzzle was not...
all together. So he is very motivated for the next edition. Yeah. And we are motivated to improve our material.
Gavin McClurg (23:22.328)
Mm.
Gavin McClurg (23:26.488)
That's great to hear.
Yeah, sure. I mean, there's other lessons there, isn't there? I was blown away that he was the oldest this year. usually I'm that guy. Yeah, couldn't... Yeah, he was the oldest this year, which is, you know, that's a little... That's crazy, because he's not old. how about you in competition? You were the...
Michael Maurer (23:41.197)
Was he? I didn't knew.
Michael Maurer (23:51.573)
Yeah. No.
Gavin McClurg (23:58.264)
2019 Swiss champion, you live in a country with many, many good pilots, so that's a huge achievement. But I remember you and I talking about that. It's something you're pursuing as much. Is that right? Do I have that right? You're not pursuing that as much.
Michael Maurer (24:16.821)
You mean the Swiss champion title?
Gavin McClurg (24:19.032)
Well, just maybe international competitions.
Michael Maurer (24:24.715)
Yeah, it's something I really like to do, it was never like... I'm not like... That's not my everything. do everything for it. it's something I... As I just mentioned here, it's something I... When I am in the flow, I really like it. quite often I just enjoy it.
not being in the flow but flying with friends and good friends. we are some pilots from like let's say the older generation. We have this kind of same flying style and this is the best fun and if it matches everything the result is for sure something which is valuable but it's not the main point.
Gavin McClurg (25:24.792)
Tell me more about flow. How do you find your flow? Do you have secrets to get there, to get into it, stay in it?
Michael Maurer (25:38.35)
Yeah, it has to be in the mailbox in the morning. Otherwise, I don't find it. No, it's hard to say. For me, it was interesting. was flying for a long time with the Jin competition wings, Boomerang 9, 10, 11. And the style of the 11 didn't fit my, how do you say, likes.
Gavin McClurg (25:45.56)
Michael Maurer (26:08.077)
I didn't like the wing that much. was good performing, but quite difficult to fly. then for 2019, I changed to the Niviux Icepeak Evox. And yeah, I really liked this wing and it was easier to fly, a lot easier to fly than all the other wings, but it was also a bit slower and a little...
Gavin McClurg (26:25.762)
Yeah, that was a lovely wing.
Michael Maurer (26:38.145)
Performance wise it was maybe the same but it was a little bit more difficult to follow and funny was that it was kind of the easiest year for me so it was I really enjoyed the material flying with these wings with the harness the setup was all right and then flying was was just going so I was I was in the flow and
It was the same for the last few years with the Hike and Fly material. If the material, the mindset, everything works together, the flow is there. And if not, I find it in other ways. I search for small goals during a competition where I set...
Yeah, let's say I want to have a good start. I want to be at the start line on point and I want to be the first at the first turn point. So that's a bit easier to achieve than to be the first in goal. So these small steps, I try to take the focus out of like the main comp or the ranking is like, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (27:58.968)
Hmm.
Michael Maurer (28:04.287)
Enjoy little things during the race. That's how I... Or also like during the year. I it can be that I have a year where I'm not in the flow at work or wherever. yeah, try to break down to small steps. like sometimes it's even working from Monday to Friday to enjoy Sunday.
Saturdays, Sundays. It can be, even if I work as a paragliding pilot, which I really enjoy, it can be weeks where I don't like flying. it's not, for me now it's kind of a normal job and it's hard to stay in the flow all the time. And I have to search the flow as well in the work.
Gavin McClurg (28:35.437)
Gavin McClurg (28:56.888)
Mm.
Michael Maurer (29:02.613)
little bit the same in every aspect.
Gavin McClurg (29:09.196)
When you're struggling with it, it work. It sounds like if you make little goals, that's what helps. Kind of setting little achievements. Like you said, okay, I'm gonna have a good start. Okay, gonna have a good, I'll be with the gaggle to the first turn point, that kind of thing. Just having step by step, does that work? That works at work as well?
Michael Maurer (29:33.963)
Yeah, it's something that works for me personally, works in kind of every situation.
It's just hard to find the right goals. This is sometimes almost similar hard to, let's say, win a competition. Because if you think you want to achieve a certain goal, but this goal is maybe not what you... Maybe it's a goal...
Gavin McClurg (29:50.187)
Right.
Michael Maurer (30:14.743)
for someone else and you want to achieve the same. Maybe this does not fit the situation and then you have to find out what motivates you. So that can help also for testing. Let's say if I have a bad day, if I wake up in the morning and I'm like, today I don't want to do maneuvers. I don't like to do...
Gavin McClurg (30:18.808)
Mmm.
Michael Maurer (30:43.755)
Sometimes easy wing can be quite nasty. then I sometimes say, let's focus on like one specific maneuver to get used to it or to get away from another bad maneuver and focus a bit more on that, what is working. And yeah, that can be a way to find motivation and the flow. And sometimes it's...
It's even like a few flights you automatically going to the hard maneuvers again and you start to enjoy them. The challenge is different.
Gavin McClurg (31:23.308)
Hmm.
Gavin McClurg (31:26.776)
It sounds like maybe by just staying focused on the process rather than the results.
Michael Maurer (31:35.585)
Yeah, that's the topic, I think.
Gavin McClurg (31:42.978)
What do mean by that, that easy wings can be nasty?
Michael Maurer (31:47.982)
For beginners wing, they always should fly. they can shoot. It depends on the position over the head. They want to fly again. Sometimes they also have to be kind of kind of rigid to not collapse. If the balance is not right, they can be...
board-like and they can really shoot far forward. And sometimes you're not ready for that because you are like, yeah, it's an easy wing. Let's do some maneuvers. Then you get called by a surprise. It's normally that's where I am going step by step and not full on full bar collapses. I more speak about
Gavin McClurg (32:27.512)
Mmm.
Michael Maurer (32:44.897)
let's say B category wings, because B category is huge, know, it's almost can be everything. And you expect bad behaviors of a D wing, let's say, but you don't expect bad behaviors of a D wing. And there you mostly, or it's about to find out.
Gavin McClurg (32:47.416)
Okay.
Yeah.
Michael Maurer (33:12.097)
the right technique to do the right size of collapse and to have the right reaction or to find out about the reaction. But somehow it's hard to find this point when a wing is board-like. So it's what makes the job interesting as well. some days are not mentally I'm not ready for.
for that and the good point is working with the team, there is always one with a good day and one with a bad day and you can motivate each other to do it either way or to do it different or to go a little further or push here and or there as well as slowing down. mean, we are working
two, minimum two or like three pilots together. So it's, it's quite fun. So it's never boring. sometimes also small competitions inside the team about doing a maneuver more sporty than the other one or climbing up quicker than the other one, top landing for the other one. So it's.
Gavin McClurg (34:26.648)
Doing a maneuver more sporty than...
Michael Maurer (34:39.049)
always challenging it.
Gavin McClurg (34:42.644)
In recent years, most of the manufacturers, if not all, I don't pay attention much to the manufacturing side of things, but have come out with these two liner ENC wings or kind of modified two liner wings. So better performance. People seem to really love them. I haven't actually flown any myself, but
things to be aware of there? there been a, for folks that are listening that are, you know, they've been flying the high B or maybe they're flying a C, is this an obvious jump? Is this a jump to take with some caution?
Michael Maurer (35:34.03)
Yeah, it's hard to say. It depends quite a lot on the product actually. There are some products which are kind of easy to fly with good reaction when they collapse. But maybe they collapse, let's say a bit too early. they really... How do you say that? The energy is gone easily.
and other products they stay bit more solid. You can fly a bit faster. You can fly fast through stronger turbulence and the energy gets more and more. You have to pilot them when they collapse. There are some models that are bit less predictable when they collapse. Others are better and easier to fly.
in extreme situations and that's always a bit hard to... For me I struggle a bit to really judge a sea wing proper because it's quite new, we have not much reference wings. Anyway they are quite solid so it happens.
not that often that you see big collapses. Yeah, it depends a bit. it's hard to say.
how in what direction or where where you go so it's also like on the B category so it's it's spreading more and more and where is it C or or let's say a difficult C wing or an easy D wing this this border is not clear similar to where is it the B wing or where is it is it the C wing and
Gavin McClurg (37:33.438)
year.
Michael Maurer (37:39.886)
It can be challenging and there I think we will learn more and more in the future what works, what not. And as always, I think we will have some products which are amazing and really prove to be good and others they will be challenging to fly. And for sure we will learn faster because we have more and more pilots.
Gavin McClurg (38:02.136)
Mm.
Michael Maurer (38:09.673)
It's a category where a lot of pilots feel home. would say it's D-wings sometimes are a bit too much demanding for some pilots and they really like to step back to a C-wing but still it's a two-liner and still good performance, good speed and the feeling of a two-liner flying is different than a
three-liner with a kind of similar steering characteristic, but you know it exactly. It's kind of unique, this two-line flying, I would say.
Gavin McClurg (38:51.288)
Hmm.
Michael Maurer (38:53.643)
Interesting what's going on
Gavin McClurg (38:54.392)
Is paragliding growing in Switzerland?
Michael Maurer (39:01.997)
I don't know exactly if growing, but yeah, think for sure it was quite popular during COVID, quite a lot, or after COVID, it's that time. If it's growing or if it's steady, I don't exactly know, but we have quite a lot of pilots in our area, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (39:26.008)
Yeah, you have a lot of pots in your area. It's very visible there. Do any of your kids fly?
Michael Maurer (39:28.865)
Yeah.
Michael Maurer (39:32.234)
huh.
Michael Maurer (39:37.292)
Not yet. The oldest one, 8'6 and 4'. So a bit too young. They join me for flying. I took the oldest one, he really likes flying tandem. He's enjoying thermals and being high until he gets cold. But he's saying he wants to fly once.
Gavin McClurg (39:39.052)
How old are they?
Gavin McClurg (39:43.177)
okay, I thought they were a little bit older. Yeah, they're a too young. Okay.
Gavin McClurg (39:58.58)
Right.
Michael Maurer (40:06.839)
For now they go on the flat to do ground handling to be ready for the school.
Gavin McClurg (40:11.053)
Kate.
Gavin McClurg (40:14.653)
Yeah. Would you want them to be pilots?
Michael Maurer (40:21.709)
I don't know. It's hard to say. I want to show them like every possibility. They should choose whatever they like and I don't want to restrict them in any point because I think if they do what they like they can do it safe.
The only thing I don't want to have them doing is everything a little bit. If they want to fly, they don't play hockey or whatever at the same time, which can be time consuming as well. I want to have them choosing kind of a hobby. It sounds a bit hard, but they should know that if they want to fly,
Gavin McClurg (41:05.794)
Hmm.
Michael Maurer (41:17.909)
it takes time and they have to do it proper. That's the main point. mean, yeah, flying is dangerous and or can be dangerous, but it's beautiful in the same time. And they have to know about the risks. And in Frutigen, we have the Cloud 7, the school, which is well known for its ground handling education and
Gavin McClurg (41:19.788)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Maurer (41:46.968)
Yeah, they are practicing a lot of ground handling. think that's one good step to be a safe pilot already. like that, they know how much time it takes to really practice and you have to do it again and again. And if they like it, they can continue. If they don't like it, they better stop, I would say. But I don't know, it will be in seven years.
Maybe it's looking different when he can actually start the school. Yeah, we'll see. Exactly.
Gavin McClurg (42:20.746)
Yeah, who knows, right? They're kids, who knows what they'll be into. It's part of the fun. When you look back at your own career and flight, would you change anything? If you could go back to maybe even that first year, would you go back now with the knowledge you have and tell that Michael something different?
Michael Maurer (42:50.057)
I would take a mustache back to that time. Parakite is quite fun to fly.
Gavin McClurg (42:59.128)
Michael Maurer (43:03.327)
No, actually, like one very important thing was the school for myself with Schmatz, the teacher. He is doing it well with this ground handling lessons.
I had like a user manual for paragliding, which is still like growing and I can still ask questions. That was extremely helpful. no, actually I have a living user manual. Yeah. So it's
Gavin McClurg (43:37.549)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (43:44.536)
I like that your brother's a user manual. That's great.
Hahaha!
Michael Maurer (43:53.87)
It's no point I would do different because yeah, I have like some small points maybe where I would say like, let's say it was a bit stupid to do a ground spiral in high grass. But when I go back, I don't know it. So I would do it again to know it. Exactly. So mistake to learn, let's say.
Gavin McClurg (44:14.474)
Right.
Michael Maurer (44:22.125)
For sure I was lucky a few times, but I think it was also in other things I did. And no, would do it again like that.
Gavin McClurg (44:37.604)
This is always something that I struggle with how to articulate or tell, mentor. I feel that if you don't have these cheap mistakes, it's pretty hard to learn. But we've all been at this game long enough where, you for example, if my daughter decides to get into paragliding, as your sons might,
How do you help them navigate that road? mean, a collapse on the wrong side near the terrain, there's not much you can do. That really does come down to luck versus training, ground handling. mean, there's all these things we know you have to do. You can't take shortcuts. There's all the cliches, right? But how do you...
Michael Maurer (45:17.794)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michael Maurer (45:32.033)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (45:34.69)
How do you gain this knowledge without ground spiraling and too tall grass?
Michael Maurer (45:42.499)
Yeah, what I can see now, like, a good example, it never happened like that, but the good example is always when a kid is in the kitchen and you tell them the kitchen where you cook is hot, the plate, and they still touch it until they know, they feel it's hot or with the fire somewhere. You can't tell them something, but they still...
do it too. Because if you tell something, it's not the same learning, let's say. And if you tell too much, would say you stop, you stop, how do you say it? You take them the opportunity to learn.
If you I see it the same way as Rick did it with me when I asked him, how do you fly a helicopter? He said yeah, just try it like for sure. He explained me or I knew it already from from talking with other pilots But like you have to break and then one side it has to fly again. So but yeah, how exactly so yeah, you have to try Yes, you have to experience yourself the feeling you have to get yourself. You can't get it from
Gavin McClurg (47:01.432)
Yeah, right.
Michael Maurer (47:08.877)
spoken words. I would say the only thing they have to know is that paragliding can really seriously hurt them if they do it wrong. They should know like some...
fundamental things, which are also valid in other, in living in general, let's say. And if they know that and something where I still stick on it was what Kregel told me is this step-by-step strategy. This is the only thing they have to know actually. I don't know exactly, maybe when...
when they get older and maybe more specific to some something maybe it will change or I will find out other teaching how to teach yeah yeah
Gavin McClurg (48:17.93)
Yeah, that's a tricky one. It's hard. You do quite a bit of hike and fly and I can fly racing and competing. When you're kind of as we turn over the new year here and go into 2026, what what keeps you excited about flying? Is it objectives? Is it? What is it? What are the things that you really look forward to as we skip into the new year?
Michael Maurer (48:47.903)
Yeah, in winter it's almost a bit like I don't think too much for now about my goals for next season. The only thing which was changing quite a lot now is that I want to keep my training, my physical training, endurance training during the winter a little bit, even though it's off season now.
I do a gym and like a little bit of running and skiing, which is not really training, but still moving around. And then in, let's say in January, February, I start to think about which competitions I want to do. What I know now is that I want to do some competitions and I think it will be next year mainly or
only hike and flight competitions because this is easier to do for me beside the family and it's like one, two or like the Eiger Tour is four day competition so it's just a weekend I have to stay away from the family and also what I think is
We have like the Swiss Cup where we know the competitions and I think I want to mix now with some competitions I already joined and some new competitions to see new terrain and maybe new style of competitions. But the final planning will happen in the new year.
The motivation is now the endurance training, combining with flying. Yeah, exactly. So I would say four years ago, I always told like, that's not something I want to do. But somehow I got into it and I quite enjoy it. And that's where I see somehow now when Chrigel is getting older, I can...
Gavin McClurg (50:51.938)
Mm, staying fit.
Michael Maurer (51:15.229)
If I would do it a bit more serious, I could maybe catch up somewhere. At least for short races. Not for five days or six days, but yeah.
Gavin McClurg (51:17.272)
series of good baby cats.
Gavin McClurg (51:29.174)
I hope he listens to this. That'll motivate him even more.
Michael Maurer (51:33.139)
Yeah, maybe he's not listening 50 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, it's will be interesting.
Gavin McClurg (51:35.864)
Yeah, right. We lost him a few minutes ago. Good. Are you... In the Swiss Cup in competitions, you now flying... You're on the X1, yeah?
Michael Maurer (51:48.974)
Yes, exactly. Yeah, Yeah, this is a good wing. Bit challenging as well if you don't fly it too much or good enough. I don't do many hours on the comp wing in these years. So it takes me always like one day to get into it properly. But nice to fly in general.
Gavin McClurg (51:51.052)
Yeah, as he is,
Yeah, that's great.
Gavin McClurg (52:15.18)
How do you approach your SIV with your X1 or just with the really high end two liners? Your brother and I had a pretty interesting conversation around this whole civil debate that's going on a couple months ago. He was saying the same thing. just, not many of us, mean, very, very, very, very few do much with these wings outside of competitions. We leave them in the bag.
Michael Maurer (52:28.717)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Maurer (52:33.601)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Maurer (52:43.287)
Mm-hmm.
Gavin McClurg (52:45.014)
We pull them out to go to a comp, get done, come back, put it back in the bag. We're not doing a lot of training. Typically, I'm sure there are some, but there's not many. Guilty as charged, I don't either. I haven't had my X1 out since my last comp in August.
Michael Maurer (52:50.049)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Maurer (53:02.701)
Yeah.
Yeah, last year it was like I was flying the World Cup in Grindelwald and then I had it in the back until I was last this year for the Swiss Championship. So it was quite tough to it was over one year. I did not fly it and definitely this is not enough. I mean, I fly every day, so it was it was OK. mean, I don't want to say I was safe.
I don't like to say that anyway. But I think it was safe enough to fly this wing or it's still safe enough to fly this wing because I fly quite often with the D wing with my Omega and I do stalls and rough conditions with this wing. So for sure I have to adapt with the X1 but to be honest, I never did a proper full stall with the X1.
So it's all my training I do is with D-wings or while testing. I think for myself, like when I fly from Monday to Friday, I do stalls, I do collapses, everything. I don't see the point to do stalls with the X1. It's, let's say...
somehow too similar to a D-wing and in real conditions you don't use like, I think so, you don't use like a proper full stall where you fly symmetrically and everything like in the labore, like in the... Yeah, exactly. I think for...
Gavin McClurg (54:37.89)
Hmm.
Gavin McClurg (54:57.954)
Test environment.
Michael Maurer (55:04.695)
For the most people, an SIV course is important to feel the stall point of the wing, to feel what happens when I go low with the brake, or when I go one side, when I spin. This practice I have every day with other wings. And this point, yeah, again, I don't want to say I am 100 % confident with that, but to fly different wings.
each day or to play around with different behaviors of wings is something that creates a feeling of... or not a feeling, a feeling in the stomach how to react to a certain behavior. Quite often it's not like, I have to stall it, it's more like I do something
to stop a reaction of the wing and then... Exactly. it's not... It's not... It's not... I plan to do it or I want to do it. It's more something happened in the feeling, in the back head of... You do it automatically.
Gavin McClurg (56:06.582)
Never let it get there. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (56:32.248)
Yeah, you're never having to get that far really.
Michael Maurer (56:37.419)
With the X1, my main goal is to really keep it open to... For now, I go out of the bar too early to not have any limit situation, let's say, when I don't have this much flying on the wing. And also when I have like an unloading or any situations, I have to react before it actually...
Gavin McClurg (56:42.946)
keep it open.
Gavin McClurg (56:53.205)
Right.
Michael Maurer (57:06.881)
happen. Just want to don't want to be too lazy. So this is this is my SIV, let's say it's my training, it's it's building up the feeling to to react blind to any situation. That's that's what I try to. But I in the same time, I don't say I can't do it in every situation because it's quite complex.
Gavin McClurg (57:12.984)
Mmm.
Gavin McClurg (57:38.998)
What do you say to the, maybe this is also a cliche, but what do you say to the, I hear this all the time that, advanced, Nivea, Jin, by them playing in the CCC field, by creating, making CCC wings, competition wings, then that technology filters down through the rest of the line. As far as I know, advanced has never,
in the competition and to the scale. Is that valid, invalid?
Michael Maurer (58:14.625)
Do we know? I think it's this is something.
Let's say CCC wings, they are not worth to do to get money for the company. But the experience you gain with CCC wings, you can scale down to get money. Yeah, it's simply said spoken. And for us, it is. We did some prototypes where we could learn some things, but it was never.
Gavin McClurg (58:35.608)
Mmm.
Michael Maurer (58:49.191)
It was back in, I don't remember exactly 2016, 2015, where we had Patrick Von Kannel flying a competition prototype in a World Cup in, I think it was Australia. Back at this time, we had a few prototypes where we tried to really increase performance and speed.
for us to fly competitions. But besides of all other projects, it was not worth to really push hard like other brands doing. And still we could learn a lot for, let's say the Omega. And most...
research we do now is with the Omega and we take it from there to the Sigma or from the Omega to the C and B wing and this is something we always speak like or we always say like we should do competition wings or maybe don't call them competition wing but high aspect ratio wings. Also for cross-country flying it is
this would be more interesting for us like Hrignan for me because it gives you more performance and in the morning and evening you can have better or weaker climbs you take everything with you and also as a training I mean it's not only to have research for the company
It's also if I fly a competition wing, my OXA feels very easy after, where I feel like a D-wing is already quite demanding in certain conditions. When you fly the X1, the D-wing is like, yeah, less energy, less or more compact. it's easier to fly, even though it was hard one week before.
Gavin McClurg (01:00:52.44)
Mm.
Gavin McClurg (01:00:59.16)
Hmm.
Gavin McClurg (01:01:10.357)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:01:14.305)
Right.
Michael Maurer (01:01:14.769)
And this aspect is something we, yeah, we should work on something. It helps the pilots, the company everywhere. Just not the money, the budget. This is something. But I mean, we always should have, every company has like its field for research and playing around also for like single skin wings.
Gavin McClurg (01:01:23.98)
It helps. Okay.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. Yeah, you have to the budget for it.
Michael Maurer (01:01:44.629)
It's acro wings. It's all the same category actually.
Gavin McClurg (01:01:52.28)
Okay, take your time with this one, this is a hard one. But last question, when you think back on your entire field career of flying all this time, just what comes to mind your most special flight and why?
and we can edit this, you can take as long as you want to think about it, is there something that just pops into your mind that's just, that.
Michael Maurer (01:02:17.101)
Oof.
Michael Maurer (01:02:24.959)
I would say I don't have one specific flight. It's sometimes quite small flights or not really. it's a bit of standard answer, I think.
I think for now the first thing popping out is this like 200k flight. We got escorted by a helicopter which was filming around the one you spoke before. We took off in Zermatt and we flew along the valleys and yeah, this was...
Gavin McClurg (01:03:00.097)
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Maurer (01:03:12.481)
Kind of enjoying the fact that we can fly with the wind and we can land wherever we want. The helicopter will land next to us and flying back to the car. Normally, normally you have to hours with the train to come back home when you do one way flights. And we had the helicopter with us.
I think it was first it was not planned to join us all the way to the landing but then they they decided somehow it was Swiss TV was it was a that was a Swiss TV production and they somehow decided to spend a bit more money because the project was interesting and I don't know the circumstances and
That was fun. It's always kind of everything what I do together with Chrigel for me is interesting and special because we have the same flying style. we don't have to talk much and to prepare much to do something.
nice maybe it's not like perfect like some very or
One of the memorable flights is the Acro show in Atalbota for the ski World Cup. First it's four times exactly. We fly once a year, synchro together and that's there. I'm always surprised how synchronized we are.
Gavin McClurg (01:04:56.044)
when you guys did the synchro stuff? Yeah.
Michael Maurer (01:05:10.221)
Without practice, ever. Very little practice. He is commenting on the radio to the... How do call this? Goal of the skiers. It's life, exactly.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:12.45)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:28.95)
Yeah, yeah. Also they can just, so it's live. All the spectators can hear him. Okay, yeah, wow.
Michael Maurer (01:05:37.192)
Exactly. And I am commenting the commandos when to exit the spiral or whatever. And this works extremely nice together with Hedigl. We don't have to speak much. Quite often we walk to the helicopter and we speak what we want to do, what maneuvers we want to do.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:48.513)
Okay.
Michael Maurer (01:06:06.925)
or the best thing but also extremely or the most challenging thing for mentally for myself is the landing in front of like 20,000 people in this.
How do you call where they arrive?
Gavin McClurg (01:06:27.564)
little, little, little gold field.
Michael Maurer (01:06:31.185)
Yeah, just like you have this all the people and you you swoop The fans yeah stadium. Yeah. Yeah, and then you we land we fly like Two meters over the heads of the of the spectators and landing to this Stadium this is What when it's done it's one one of the best things ever but
Gavin McClurg (01:06:36.49)
Stadium. That stadium. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Michael Maurer (01:07:00.727)
doing this is mentally quite challenging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have quite a lot of possibilities to mess up and a lot of media guys around, a lot of cameras around. Yeah, so these two things is always something very special.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:02.868)
Yeah, that's nerve wracking. You don't want to screw that up.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:18.026)
Yeah.
Michael Maurer (01:07:30.911)
And also I could not do it without Chrigel. He is organizing everything because he is Chrigel. He can do stuff like that. Yeah, this is very special because no one... I mean, someone else could do an extra show at the ski workout, but it's quite a few points.
where I have possibilities to do special things because of him.
Gavin McClurg (01:08:08.6)
You two have a, from what I can tell, least you have a really nice relationship. That's a lot of fun. I really enjoyed talking to you for all those hours at the bottom of the Nissan. I know your wife really wanted you to get home, but we had a nice chat during a nice time of the race. That was quite special. But Michael, thanks for sharing all this.
Michael Maurer (01:08:25.485)
You
Gavin McClurg (01:08:38.274)
You're quite articulate about all this, how you fly and your thoughts on everything. I appreciate it. yeah, bud, Merry Christmas.
Michael Maurer (01:08:47.373)
Thank you very much, Kamen. It was a pleasure to talk with you again. I hope to see you soon. Live.
Gavin McClurg (01:08:55.414)
Me too. Yes, me too, live. That would be good. Awesome.
Michael Maurer (01:09:01.483)
Yeah. Enjoy the days.
