In this episode British hang gliding pilot Jeremy Soper shares his journey from overcoming a fear of heights to becoming a record-breaking pilot and innovative robotics entrepreneur. We explore the future of AI in physical labor, using robots to weed instead of using pesticides, the thrill of extreme flying and chasing distance around the world, including a midnight flight where the date changed, a personal call-out to other hang gliding pilots who are losing the records race to paragliders, and an optimistic view of the future of AI. Jeremy recounts his amazing out and back record this winter in Kenya (377 km), beating Owen Morse’s record set in the Sierras a few years back and the risks and rewards of flying the Kerio ridge and why we should all be flying prone. Enjoy!
Support the Podcast
A buck an episode, that's all we ask
If you like what you hear, please consider becoming a subscriber to ensure our high-quality content continues. You can also help contribute to a healthier, greener planet through our partnership with Our Forest.
See our donation and subscription options here.
Listen to the Podcast
Listen to us on all the most popular podcast platforms:
Jeremy Soperman’s background in hang gliding and record attempts The role of AI and robotics in physical labor and farming Future of human employment in an automated world The technical challenges and experiences of long-distance hang gliding in Kenya Innovations in hang glider design and the potential of Project Seven The importance of soft skills and passions in a future with AI The community and culture of extreme sports and aviation
Sound Bites
“The best way to overcome fear is to challenge it head-on.” “We’re seeking new horizons beyond the Owens record.” “Cloud streets and thermals are key to long-distance flying.”
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Jeremy’s background in flying 01:47 Jeremy’s vision for AI and automation in agriculture 04:01 The impact of AI on jobs and human purpose 06:50 Jeremy’s journey from fear of heights to hang gliding champion 12:12 Record-breaking flights in Kenya and the challenges faced 20:11 Technical insights into long-distance hang gliding and conditions 30:07 Future of hang gliding, design innovations, and the Project Seven 45:02 The culture of extreme aviation and community stories 54:57 Closing thoughts on innovation, persistence, and the future
gavin (00:01.192)
Jeremy, it's great to have you on the show and I appreciate you fitting this in considering it sounds like you've been moving all over the place. last I saw your stuff was in the Carrio Valley in in Kenya. And now you're I we I think we should start with what you're doing. You're British, but you're in Silicon Valley zone to what with robots? And hi.
Soperman (00:15.426)
I have indeed.
Soperman (00:28.718)
Come here to make my fort make my fortune. Streets are paved with gold, haven't you heard? I am here to well ultimately automate all physical labour and build us the infrastructure of abundance on Earth and in space, but we're starting by deploying teleoperated humanoid avatars to weed organic farms. In the Salinas Valley, which is the salad bowl of the world, just an hour out of Silicon Valley, we'll be
gavin (00:33.22)
Right.
gavin (00:48.018)
Whoa.
Soperman (00:54.786)
Basically mounting sixteen pairs of humanoid arms on the back of a tractor and teleoperating them remotely from Honduras to pull weeds out of the ground.
gavin (01:04.894)
Whoa. Okay, so I think we gotta start with what's your view of AI? Sounds like yours is is maybe more optimistic than some.
Soperman (01:13.836)
Yeah, I I am in the business of of AI, so I'd I'd better sound positive about it. I think it's so far it's largely overpromised and under delivered when it comes to the physical world. so that's why we're keeping humans in the loop for as long as it takes to automate work reliably, because lots of people have tried to deploy robots into the real world and they've they've failed miserably. and we're not going to make
Exactly those same mistakes, hopefully.
gavin (01:47.506)
And y wha what is your vision for, you know, if if if we can use robots to to you know to to gather lettuce and we we we kill all those jobs, is it it do you see a a vision where you know robots are able to radically increase abundance across the planet and if it aligns with, you know, human goals, you know, I think the most optimistic view is it there there's there's plenty of everything and and
And most problems are solved either quickly or sometime in the near future, which gives everybody, everybody, top to bottom a lot more time if we can figure out how it doesn't go to just the top. But is it a UBI? How d what do we do with you know, if if we don't need plumbers anymore?
Soperman (02:33.715)
UBI is is pro there's probably gonna be some form of UBI. I would say that for illustration, agriculture went from involving ninety nine percent of the population to involving less than two percent in the space of a few generations, whilst increasing yield fifty to a hundred times. So we've we've already experienced the biggest step change within living memory, and there's no reason
that a similar multiplication couldn't happen again, that we can just keep driving down the number of people involved in in certain physical industries whilst freeing them up to do things that we can't even imagine as of today. So there will be there will always be things for people to do. we just don't know what they are yet.
gavin (03:18.482)
Hmm. I I I one of my favorite podcasters is is Sam Harris, you know, a philosopher and everything else. I don't know how much you you listen to him, but he people have been asking him a lot, you know, hey, I'm I'm going into college, what kind of degree should I get? And, you know, is it gonna be eliminated? And his his answer lately is really, you know, we just don't know. And, you know, we're still gonna need doctors, even though, you know, AI can take over a lot of
clinical analysis kind of stuff, but we're still gonna need We're still gonna need nurses, we're still gonna need philosophers, we're still gonna need you know, it it's too early to to say you know, a degree is still important. What what would you say to that? What where where would you if you had kids, do you have kids?
Soperman (04:01.997)
I do not. but if I did, I I would tell them not necessarily to to go down the traditional route of getting a degree. for me that was that was what I thought I had to do and I I went and got as many hard skills as I could. but increasingly we're seeing soft skills being
gavin (04:03.4)
If you had kids, where would you where would you shoe into?
Soperman (04:23.425)
the the the valuable aspects of what keep us humans from going obsolete. So I would encourage them to to go and and just make lots of friends and and pursue passions perhaps with with more emphasis than going down a specific career route because if you find something you love then then you'll become good at it and then maybe you'll get paid for it further down the line.
gavin (04:49.982)
Well that was a brilliant segue without us planning it. I assume your your passion is hang gliding or wha w I walk up to you in the bar, I don't know who you are and what's that what's that?
Soperman (04:58.189)
Yeah, I've never yet worked out how to get paid for that. I I've never yet worked out how to get paid for that. So I'm not a not a good example.
gavin (05:04.612)
No, nobody has. Nobody has. I don't think too many people do, but yeah, so you know, somebody walks up to you in a bar, doesn't know who you are, and asks you guys get into a conversation and ask you, Hey, what do you do? Or who are you? How do you how do you answer that? Are you a robotics engineer? Are you a hang glider? What do you do? What how do you answer that question?
Soperman (05:26.074)
In a bar full of hang glider pilots, I say I'm a a roboticist and in a in a room full of roboticists I say I'm a hang glider pilot. You always want to be the standout from the crowd.
gavin (05:33.898)
Somebody different. Yes, yes. Excellent. Excellent. give us give us the short to long. It doesn't matter. This is a long form podcast. But what's your how'd you get into flying and what's what's your history? Bring us go to go from the beginning to now. And and and also and somewhere in there plug in what happened in January.
Soperman (05:50.923)
Yeah.
Soperman (05:56.014)
Sure. Well, from day one I've always wanted to be an astronaut. growing up, everyone goes through a little astronaut phase. I just never let go of it because I haven't found anything anything cooler than exploring the final frontier. but there was one fairly substantial problem and that was I was extremely scared of heights. I grew up in a bungalow. I was terrified just going onto the the first floor of a building. I would I would get vertigo looking out of a a first floor window.
gavin (06:00.147)
Soperman (06:24.737)
And I knew I had to overcome this somehow. and I yeah, I grew up in a bungalow in the middle of the the countryside in southwest England. with more massive, yeah, 300 feet. We've got more more sheep than people for neighbours. had a great time, but yeah, I I was I was pretty scared of heights.
gavin (06:24.827)
Really?
Where'd you grow up? Was this in England?
gavin (06:35.421)
where there's big mountains.
gavin (06:45.737)
Mm.
Soperman (06:50.393)
and I knew I needed to overcome this and the best way to overcome your fears is to challenge them head on. So I decided I was going to learn to fly to to get over that. And the cheapest way I could find to get in the air, well actually the cheapest way, possibly the cheapest way, I became obsessed with wingsuiting videos on YouTube. And I was like, That's what I need to do. the ultimate thrill, blasting down a mountain, skimming the ground a few feet above
certain doom. and then I ran out of videos on YouTube because the guys who were making the videos were dying faster than they could get videos out. And the YouTube algorithm said if you if you like wingsuiting, maybe you would like hang gliding. That was the first time I came across hang gliding was thanks to the YouTube algorithm. And I thought actually that looks like it has a a slightly higher survival rate. And it was a bit more accessible given that there aren't too many
gavin (07:31.466)
Yeah.
gavin (07:40.478)
No way.
Soperman (07:50.016)
Massive cliffs in the UK. so as soon as I got my driving license, I I drove down to the nearest hang gliding school, which was with Fitsi in Cornwall, Cloud Nine, and and the first time I'd ever seen a hang glider in real life was the first time I clipped into it for my first lesson. And then I was hooked.
gavin (08:06.632)
You're shitting me. Really? You hadn't seen it, so where you lived you hadn't and people aren't flying. Wow. Crazy.
Soperman (08:14.473)
but I'd I decided that there was something that captivated me about the prone face down position and and that's what I had to do to really overcome my fear of heights is fly like a bird in the most natural way possible. And it was very economical too. so I I went down there and from the the moment I took my first hops I was hooked. And I I gradually overcame my that was yeah, it's
gavin (08:37.94)
How long ago was this? Give me a y you look you look quite young. How when was this?
Soperman (08:43.349)
You flattered me. That was when I was seventeen, as soon as I got my driving license. And so I I became the youngest pilot in Britain and and I held on to that for the best part of a decade, I think. I I've now been flying thirteen years, I just turned thirty.
gavin (08:55.282)
Whoa.
gavin (08:59.526)
Okay. Wow. Amazing. And have you ever jumped ship and and and sat and f flown those goofy looking things or you you just stayed prone?
Soperman (09:09.065)
it hang gliding's been the gateway drug to all sorts of aviation. I went on to get my fixed wing and rotary licenses and microlight. I've flown flown a lot of things. I did have a tandem paraglider flight, but it it didn't cut the mustard. It's not prone, it's not yeah, it's no substitute for hang gliding, so I I'm a bit of a Puritan where that's concerned.
gavin (09:33.255)
Excellent. we just radically increased our hand gliding listeners right now. That's perfect. Yeah, you you you you quoted something on your on your out and back record in January. I know you're getting to that. I'm not trying to force you along, but what did you say? It was great. let's see. Wait a minute. Where was it? I've got the I've got the XC mag thing pulled up here. What did you I should have I should have
Soperman (09:39.263)
Yeah.
gavin (10:00.337)
highlighted it but he said let's go PGs or something. yeah, your move, PGs. I love it.
Soperman (10:06.027)
Yeah. Of course it's a a friendly rivalry, but it's it's it's quite worrying, shall we say, that despite your ostensibly well theoretically lower performance, paragliders are inexorably creeping towards our world records and and I think that really it's it's of existential concern to hang gliding if paragliding
gavin (10:11.837)
Of course. Yeah.
Soperman (10:36.201)
overtakes it in the record. I mean it has done now for the triangle record by quite a margin. because well, we all know that hand gliding can never compete in terms of portability and and convenience. So our USP has to be better performance and and the only way to to demonstrate better performance is to fly further. And if we're not doing that, then people coming into the sport when they when they're faced with a choice do we go hand gliding or paragliding,
I think one of the things and that you're gonna do is is look up what are the pros and cons. which one okay, paragliding is more convenient, but if hand gliding is more performant and I can apply further, that's a that's an advantage of hand gliding. And if if we no longer have that, then there really aren't too many reasons for taking it other than it's a more bird-like sensation and and I could wax lyrical about that. But if you're new to the sport,
gavin (11:20.394)
Mm.
Soperman (11:34.123)
and you haven't experienced it first hand, it's hard to justify. So I'm I'm trying to do my bit to to keep the paragliders at bay.
gavin (11:39.056)
Mm. So we need we need
Yeah. Well you you've got some characters in your sport, you know, the last time we had an out and back record it was Owen who you beat, Owen Morse, and you know, one of the best jugglers in the world. So that's that you guys gotta just you know, keep being really cool and and you'll you'll do you'll be just fine. But yeah, you know, Antoine Girard just laid down the four hundred FAI in in Pakistan. Well, it sounds like we gotta get you to Texas 'cause, you know, I don't know if you heard but Dustin, who has the current right one way rec it's still it's still his, isn't it, in hand gliding?
Soperman (12:12.663)
Yep. Yes it is.
gavin (12:13.641)
Yeah, and it's it's seven hundred and something, but he's he was gonna go down with Jeff Shapiro this summer and try to break it on a paraglider. Not it, but break the you know, that's where the our current world record is, is down in Texas and and he but I don't know, it is I I think y they're doing more instructing. I haven't seen him head down that way and they're also having a hell of a heat wave down there. It would be miserable, but yeah, we gotta get you to Texas. Well you're pretty close now, you're not too far away. Yeah You're getting closer.
Soperman (12:26.669)
Yep.
Soperman (12:37.357)
I'd be I'd be well up for that, yeah, I'm getting closer. I'm also within spitting distance of the Owens for for a few more out and returns.
gavin (12:45.927)
Yeah, and that's you're gonna if if you flown there, if you flown the island. you're gonna dig that. It's special.
Soperman (12:50.485)
Not yet. No. I went up to Lake Tahoe a few weeks ago and that was that was awesome. So there's some cracking sights around here.
gavin (12:56.021)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but it doesn't get any goodn doesn't get any bigger than than the Owens. That's that's some strong stuff. Great stories back all the way back the Hang glide days. But well cool. tell me about Kenya.
Soperman (13:14.839)
Well I I'd looked at the records. I figured the open distance is is pretty insane. and you'd probably have to be in in Texas to have a shot at that. the the triangle I've been trying a few triangles off the Colodizer in France. I don't know where the the paragliders have been making a name themselves. but the
The the out and return looked like the most feasible for me to tackle, so I looked all over Google Earth for the longest continual ridges and came across the Rift Valley and then realized the paragliders had already discovered it. made some inquiries, established that no one had flown a hand glider there since Julie Leadden and Co. went down in the nineties, and that was with an Erito expedition, so no one had foot launched the Rift. shipped
a hang glider out fairly speculatively several months in advance on a on board a ship, with no real expectation that it would turn up in one piece or even in the same decade. But I thought it's it's worth a shot and then quite surprised really to receive a call that it had indeed turned up. So then I booked a flight out there and found a a willing driver with a Safari wagon.
gavin (14:22.249)
Or even turn up.
Soperman (14:37.447)
And we went to see what was what. No well no idea whether it was even flyable or or whether we'd find anywhere suitable to launch. but we we just went for it and as it turned out it was it was a fantastic place for hang gliding.
gavin (14:57.395)
Is it was it a team or was it just just you or how how what who was involved? Okay.
Soperman (14:57.719)
And I I came home with
Just just myself and gliding. also had well team soper, my father, as well as
Well, the the identity of of my observer must remain underwrapped because he or she was meant to be working from home that week and
So we we don't let don't let let them get in trouble with their employer.
gavin (15:27.893)
Can't rat her out rat he or her out, yeah.
Right. So so you we we went through that when we went down in Texas and tried to break it a few years ago with the observer thing and all that. Did do you have to have somebody present? I can't remember. Okay, so somebody has to actually be there and it can't be somebody flying with you.
Soperman (15:44.161)
Yep. Yep.
Soperman (15:50.47)
if they are flying it's possible that if they're still on the ground and they watch you take off, then it's okay. But if they're already up in the air it well they they could technically witness you, but it's a bit tricky.
gavin (16:04.263)
Okay, that's right.
Yeah.
Yeah, gotcha. and yeah, take us through it. So you h you had w how long were you there? How long did it take to f to figure it out? 'Cause you you had a you had a big one on the twentieth of January and then two days later you had the big, big one and broke the record. Was it did it just happen or was you know, were you were you going for it every day?
Soperman (16:34.035)
three weeks out there and thought that that would give me a decent shot at the record. And we turned up the first evening, went to the first place that I'd decided to scout as a potential takeoff and found there were five trees in the way and thought, well that's that's that then. But our driver, ever resourceful, spoke to one of the tenant farmers there who said, Yeah, we could we could probably get those trees cut down. So
Inquiries were made and I was thinking, well, it'll be it might be a a week or so before anything happens. and within half an hour a dude with a chainsaw turned up and and they lopped the five trees down for us. So we we had a a brand spanking new takeoff. Just had to drop a few of the fences so that we could drive down to the front. had to pay off the the landowner and and that was all tickety boo for the first few days
gavin (17:29.865)
And how how d is this how is that in relation to that typical takeoff that I've seen at the hotel?
Soperman (17:37.751)
The the takeoff at the hotel is a great takeoff, however it's not ideal for trying to break the out and return record because it's forty kilometres along the ridge and you need to start at one end for the FAI criteria. So I had to find somewhere closer to one end or the other.
gavin (17:51.625)
Okay.
gavin (17:55.281)
okay. Gotcha. so this one worked. They lopped some trees down and it was it was good to go.
Soperman (17:57.32)
and this was basically
Yep. That that was until the the third or fourth day. and then well they have big families out there in Kenya and the the landowner's brother soon got wind of it that the the landowner had been paid for for our access. However he had not been, so he felt aggrieved and and returned one morning to put all the fences back up and insisted that we pay him. And then it turned out this family had
Eight siblings who all wanted a a slice of the actions. There were some some logistical challenges, of course, as to be expected. but in terms of the the takeoff itself, it was perfect. It's straight into a a nice chute that the wind always funnels up. And then you're you're right onto the the ridge o only a kilometer from the southern turn point. And as soon as the sun comes up, you start getting a bit of a breeze coming onto the face.
gavin (18:31.673)
god. man.
Soperman (18:58.347)
And by the time you're you're ready to go, then you can use most of the the available daylight. Run it in dynamic ridge lift for the first hour and a bit, and then the thermals start around eight thirty and you you fly it more conventionally after that. yeah, you were saying?
gavin (19:07.508)
Is it is it is it pretty much
gavin (19:18.35)
is is it is it pretty much a beam reach out and back? Or or is there an up kind of a more of an upwindish leg and then a downwindish leg? Or how what's the what's the logistics there for going for it?
Soperman (19:31.147)
The prevailing wind comes onto the ridge, it's a north-south ridge, and then the the meteor wind is easily. you
maybe get a little bit of of circulation helping you there and helping you back, but not not massively. The trick is to find a day where the prevailing wind is strong enough that it is able to overpower the catabatic that might be coming down over the ridge at the end of the day. However, there's no decent weather forecasting in the region because the nearest actual weather probes are are spaced several hundred kilometers apart.
so I just had to turn up and and try each day, not knowing whether it would be a a sensible day to try for the record or not. and it's only when you get down the far end that you know whether you've got a a reasonable chance of making it back. But by then it's too late to bail, because the quickest way to get back is is to fly back. So every time you you're taking off, you're essentially committing to a an eight, nine, ten hour day in the saddle. You also don't want to be landing out in the middle of the valley in the heat of the day 'cause
There were some dust devils that that you'd probably call torn tornadoes back home and there's lions and elephants if you land out in the middle of the valley.
gavin (20:50.644)
Sounds awesome. The the i is it the kind of thing like in Brazil where you're not if you're not on a certain pace by hour two, you just turn around and go back home and take a nap?
Soperman (21:01.173)
Mm no. I mean I hadn't been there long enough to know what that pace would be, but you I I found that the outbound leg is slower and then on the way back, if you're lucky, you get some clouds marking the lift and you can run it home much quicker. So you you should never give up hope too early. on the record day itself I thought I was way behind the pace in terms of if
gavin (21:22.463)
And in what
Soperman (21:28.257)
Getting to the far end was was halfway through the day, then I was way behind that. But I just had a a quicker run home.
gavin (21:36.696)
my math is probably not on here. I don't have my stuff pulled up in front of me. But you went three seventy seven out and back and it was a ten and a half hour flight. That grabs me as quite slow. Is that that what was what is that? That thirty seven thirty seven K an hour, yeah, right? Mm more or less.
Soperman (21:50.742)
Not I'm not the the fastest Yeah yeah, I'm I'm not the fastest pilot on the block. I I've not placed top ten or anything in a in a cat one comp. so no doubt there are people that could could do it faster, but the
My USP if you like is is just hanging in there for ten and a half hours. That's a a a skill in itself.
gavin (22:14.918)
Mm. Yeah, no, and I wasn't I wasn't picking on it. I was thinking more of the conditions. Are is it that is it is it the kind of thing where you're having to spend a lot of time 'cause I thought it was just ridge running, but it it sounds like it's not. Is it it it there's a lot more thermal in your
Soperman (22:26.025)
no, it's it's only ridge running for the for the first hour when you've got enough dynamic lift and you're you're close to the ridge. But after that first southerly section where it's quite sheer, it gets less steep, so it's more forty-five degrees and there isn't enough of a meteor wind to to run it like a a coastal site. So you are relying on thermals. Yep.
gavin (22:41.516)
No.
gavin (22:47.528)
Okay, so you're you're turning. Okay. W wha what I've heard from the PGs that have been there that have flown there quite a bit, it it's it's has always sounded quite spicy, you know, 'cause you're you don't have a ton of margin. You're quite close to the terrain and it can be quite strong. Is that something that's not as big a deal on a hang glider? Or I mean would you f w how would you rate this place in terms of, you know, difficulty and and sketchiness?
Soperman (23:16.789)
the the lift can be off the charts. I had a sustained ten metre per second. but it was surprisingly smooth. The the days that the PGs said they were feeling well that they were butt clenching were actually not that bad on a hand glider. we can fly in stronger winds and actually I needed the stronger wind for the record day. as I said it it was only on the strong day that it was enough to reverse the catabatics to get me home on the last stretch in the evening.
gavin (23:20.852)
Whoa.
Soperman (23:46.394)
I would say that I gave the the fingers as we call them well you've got to do a bit of tacking upwind, I gave them a wide berth because I was wary about being trapped behind any of the ridges that where the ridge breaks and and steps back a bit. So I I did on on s most of the flights take a line across the flats there to cut the corner off. although that relies on finding or
on the cloud streets appearing when you're ready to come back. So another reason it's it might be quite slow on the way out is there's no no clouds marking the lift. you have to hope that by the time you get to the far end the cumule start appearing and then you can make up some time.
gavin (24:32.64)
Th is the I d I've only I've I haven't been there. I've only read that there's kind of the lower shelf and a higher shelf. Is there i is the possibility of getting blown back like the dumps, you know, it is it is it really is that no man's land? Is that bad? Or can you just if you get blown if you're if you get too far back, you've given your you know, you cut the corner too much and you're not able to get back up to the ridge, is it a big deal?
Soperman (24:57.771)
The higher shelf, lower shelf, most of the time if you're as long as you're level with the higher shelf, you could glide off the lower one. But there are a few times where I was thinking if if there isn't good lift here, then I will struggle to clear the lower lip and I don't really want to be landing on that plateau because you're talking two thousand six hundred meters up, hot and high. So a hang glider would be coming in very fast. and yeah.
gavin (24:58.26)
Other than other than inconvenience?
Soperman (25:27.481)
a few occasions I I was also in butt clenching mode, just gingerly hoping that the lift would sustain me until I got to a point where I could easily glide clear of the lower lip.
gavin (25:41.034)
I I have to admit quit.
Soperman (25:41.217)
I would say the the spiciest bits of it from a hand glider perspective are the outlandings. I'd looked on Google Earth before I got there and and found there were probably decent fields every twenty kilometres, but not not many more than that.
gavin (25:58.866)
And are you talking bat at the bottom down in the Carrio Valley? Okay, all right.
Soperman (26:03.595)
Yeah. Whilst the top landings near takeoff are are nice and flat, it'd be very, very high altitude landing there. So I always landed down at the bottom. And even then I was coming in hot.
gavin (26:19.115)
Yeah, I always forget about that with the with speed's a big deal when you're flying in th thinner air and a hang glider, isn't it, for landing? i you mentioned right at the top there that y you had a driver or a chase crew was really important there. Is it i so is somebody driving, you know, kind of sticking along with you or are they just ready to go?
Soperman (26:36.877)
But the out and return, they they can't so much chase as just have to wait because if you yeah, if you make it back, then any chasing they'll have are done in vain. So it's certainly the trickiest record to to do in terms of retrieving, because they have no idea where they should wait for you. we were in comms over over WhatsApp calling. This is one of the the cool things about the rift. There's no running water, no infrastructure, no
gavin (26:41.869)
Sure.
Soperman (27:04.757)
no metalled roads down in the in the valley, but there is 5G, so we were never never really out of comms. and I would usually advise them to drive up to Iten so 40k by air, 60 or so by road and wait there for me. and then I'd have a a slightly better idea when I was down the far end if I thought it likely that I could make some headway back.
but on two occasions I I bombed out down the far end and then then that was a a multi day endeavour to get back. It took them all of all of the rest of the day to come out and fetch me and then all of the the rest of the next day to come back.
gavin (27:46.68)
Hmm. where is the current out and back so I I want to say the current out and back record in PG is that Slovenia, Italy, and back, but that might have been that might be different now. I think somebody just broke it in the in the room, right?
Soperman (28:01.281)
No, it's it's i ik Ikike. Ikike kile the FAI one. the the Rone one, I think that's the X contest. I don't know if if that's FAI qualified or not.
gavin (28:17.739)
Right. Yeah, I'm trying to think what what is I mean you're you beat Owens the but the but the Owens i doesn't seem you know, b because of the westerly that comes in there, you know, getting across Mammoth and sticking onto the main spine, sticking onto the Sierras seems tricky. You know, you I think you've almost gotta do it like Owen did, but I I don't know how much is left there.
Soperman (28:42.285)
I think Owens maxed out the Owens. So that was one of the reasons for for going and seeking new stomping grounds.
gavin (28:45.013)
Yeah.
gavin (28:50.047)
Okay, so he did. So and I this is embarrassing. I haven't looked at your at your flight. Is there more did you leave anything to be had with that ridge line or is it are you are you tapping both ends?
Soperman (29:00.589)
What the
The ridge line does continue, however the road does not. So where my turn point was to to get the three hundred and sixty K out in return marks the the end of the road. I calling it a road is generous, it's only really a dirt track at best. but beyond that, when I after I got the the 360, I was trying for 400 and the last 20k out I had to leave the ridge because otherwise it would be a thirty kilometre hike.
out if I landed down at the bottom of the ridge.
gavin (29:37.115)
Ugh. Is that possible with your gear?
Soperman (29:40.327)
well you'd you'd be jettisoning the hang glider. there wouldn't be anywhere that you could realistically put it down and expect it to still be intact. And then assuming you're still intact, you've got to hike out through a forty degree desert with limited provisions and it wouldn't be wouldn't be my first choice. So I on those those occasions I left the ridge to stay closer to
a track that went out into the flats towards Lake Turkana. But then then you're just flying blind because when I got there there were there were still no clouds and I I was hoping that they would appear over me at roughly the right time. And so yeah, extending it considerably might be tricky unless you've got balls of steel and are willing to accept that an an an outlanding is is the end of your record campaign.
gavin (30:34.513)
Mm. So where I mean I'm assuming for you guys it's the same as us, it's the FAI. You mentioned Col de Hazard where, you know, Edward Potel just broke the FAI, you know, right around the time when Antoine went four hundred, so he's done three sixty five. Where where do you is it i where would two questions then. Where would you go to go bigger for the out and back and where would you go and what and and what is it for hang gliders? What's the current FAI record?
Soperman (31:02.392)
The for out and back I've now pushed the FAI to three six three. yeah, that last little stub of the three seven seven didn't count because it was south of where I took off. I I have been trying for four hundred there, and I did get to the far turn point, I just didn't close it all the way. But four hundred is definitely possible in the carryo. for bigger than that, I'm not sure yet.
gavin (31:15.594)
okay.
Soperman (31:31.373)
Maybe I'll I'll petition them to build a road further along the ridge and then it'll open up a bit more there. In terms of the triangle, the hang gliding triangle was was just north of the the out and return. The out and return had been three five seven and the triangle is three five eight. we we do, we do indeed. Edward pushed the paragliders to three five nine on the call, and I think four hundred is actually possible from the call.
gavin (31:47.403)
so it's less than you're right, you guys gotta get on this. It's less than the paraglidders.
Soperman (31:58.665)
it that would be a free triangle, not the declared, because the declared triangle also has to start at at a vertex, so we wouldn't get the the leg out to the Italian border. but for going bigger than 400, I think it has to be the Himalayas. If you want the biggest flights, then you need the biggest mountains. And and having I've not tried to fly in the Himalayas, but I have been hiking in the in the Pakistan part, and that is totally inhospitable to hang gliders.
gavin (32:06.413)
see I don't know all these rules.
gavin (32:14.498)
Yeah.
gavin (32:27.371)
Yeah, and I mean it's when you when you talk to the folks who were really watching Antoine, I mean Antoine was just here last summer when he was doing his Rockies thing and you know, there there were places where even he probably would have had to jettison his g I mean it sounded just ins it some of those places are insanely remote and really gnarly to get out. I mean you would for sure, I think with with your gear, you're just well see you later. I'll leave it here. Yeah, that's a
Soperman (32:46.264)
Yeah.
Soperman (32:52.14)
Just disposable.
gavin (32:55.949)
It's an e it's an expensive disposable kit. It's not a toothbrush.
Soperman (32:58.806)
Yeah. You're gonna have to come down under under parachute most of the time and and get a get hellied out of there.
gavin (33:07.263)
man, yeah, so okay, so so nothing obvious. There isn't some long ridge in Montgoly or something you're spying that would be that would
Soperman (33:18.348)
Nothing obvious for the triangle, no. I would say that hope is not lost. there are well, more than plans a foot to to make a hang glider that retains the performance of of toplesses and even goes beyond that whilst improving the handling to an extent that we can put it down in much smaller LZs. But no, I'm I'm talking about the the project seven from Avian.
gavin (33:20.343)
Yeah.
gavin (33:40.417)
You talking like the short pack thing?
gavin (33:47.879)
Okay.
Soperman (33:49.43)
Which is is going to be the the first radical step change in in hang gliders in a long time. So I'm really excited for that.
gavin (33:55.883)
No.
talk more about that. That's not I'm again I'm not a hang glider, but I think there's people listening that'd be super fascinated to know more. I I am too, but what w so what is this?
Soperman (34:07.83)
Tim and Co. would be much better place than me to to explain the details, but it's a a different structure, different plan form. on the surface it's it's got a a cranked leading edge, a bit like a well, most birds don't have a perfectly straight leading edge. and that enables different form factors that open up a new avenue for better handling and performance, whereas most
improvements in the last twenty years have have sacrificed handling for performance. This this could finally break free from that paradigm.
gavin (34:45.74)
Hmm. Wow. That sounds awesome. It but it's also l I guess light something you can hike with. You can you you don't need the the car.
Soperman (34:55.796)
not yet, no. there are well yeah.
gavin (34:58.506)
Okay. Okay. It's more a performant thing.
Soperman (35:05.858)
Obviously the more places you could hike to and and take off from, that would open up considerably more record breaking opportunities, but you gotta picture battles and and portability will be
gavin (35:16.718)
Mm-hmm.
Soperman (35:21.486)
For a little while it might still be something that you have to sacrifice in order to gain performance.
gavin (35:26.806)
Hmm. How did you get into record chasing? What was what was the what was the catalyst here?
Soperman (35:35.429)
I've always wanted to I b being competitive, wanting to to make my name and be the best in the world at something. but I so I'd had the the concept of chasing a record for a while. I just thought I was a long way off the pace and didn't think I was ready for it. until I placed one position higher than Owen at the the pre worlds back in Azure.
in twenty twenty four and that made me think, well, if I can fly faster than him in a comp, maybe I can and just about clinch the record from him. And then last year in Austria I I did a pretty big out and return in the the Pinsgow well from Stodetzinken and I didn't realise it until afterwards but I came within six kilometers of the record so I thought I got a decent shot at it now. I might as well go for it.
gavin (36:34.886)
Cool. Yeah, that I mean that's that's a they call it a superhighway for a reason. Had you flown in Austria much? Had you flown to Pinsgow much before?
Soperman (36:41.155)
Yeah.
Soperman (36:45.838)
I'd done one one or two flights there before. but not hadn't flown from Straight of Thinking. nope.
gavin (36:51.436)
Hm. You ever been involved in the North South Cup?
gavin (36:57.272)
Did do they have that for hangies in in Britain?
Soperman (37:00.234)
Mm not anymore. However, what what I am doing is it's it's the Flex Alps, I've named it, in homage to the X Alps, but for hang gliders. I'm trying to join up the the entire length of the Alps from Monaco to Trieste in an unbroken series of track logs. but unlike the X Alps, you don't have to hike and you don't have to do it all in one go. It's a it's a multi multi year, possibly even multi generational challenge.
gavin (37:19.598)
Cool.
Soperman (37:28.43)
but I'm eighty two percent of the way there. There's a few gaps, especially around Davos. and at either end it's it's tricky to ideally I'd like to land on a beach like they do in the X Alps. but finding somewhere that doesn't have too many groccles or or rocks is tricky.
gavin (37:29.038)
Cool.
gavin (37:48.659)
Hmm. Yeah, that maritimes at the South End. I mean you know, back in my Ex Alps days, that sucks down there. It's so brutal. You didn't get the airspace and it's just filled with things that are not conducive to flying. Power lines and castles and trees and it gets really gnarly down there. I guess it'd be cool, you know, if you started from there in my pre Ex Alps days, you know, we'd start from Nice and and start flying north and it starts to get pretty sweet.
Soperman (38:03.533)
Yeah.
gavin (38:17.816)
pretty quick. And you're going with the seabree, so it's not as it's you're not just bullishly fighting into it the whole time.
Soperman (38:25.408)
Yeah. Another option is to to l yeah. I was actually thinking Nice looks a bit too tricky airspace wise, so another option would be to lob off from near Cuneo at Malanotta and and then flop over the back to near Albenga on the Italian side.
gavin (38:27.042)
Cool. You've done eighty two percent of it?
Wicked.
gavin (38:45.836)
That's over on the Italian side where that big fort is up there.
Soperman (38:49.731)
Yeah.
gavin (38:50.784)
Yeah, that's beautiful. That's yeah, that'd be a great start. eighty two percent. So y and so this is just go whenever you wanna go, fly whatever whenever you can, connect the dots. That's cool.
Soperman (39:02.262)
Yep. Yep. I've made a made a website so people can upload theirs and and we can challenge each other to it. So far it's just me, but I live in hope.
gavin (39:13.206)
And why why okay I guess 'cause it's the Lingen out so I was gonna say why stop in Trieste? 'Cause those are going into Slovenia is amazing. That's a beautiful part, but I guess that yeah, that's the different ours.
Soperman (39:24.648)
Croatia is also an option. yeah, if if you don't wanna land at Trieste you can keep going and and pop out over the the Istrian. but it's
gavin (39:33.686)
Although you know, if you do land in Trieste, the food is awfully good. That is a nice end. Yeah, there is that. so you just got stateside. Have you spent much time over here before?
Soperman (39:37.666)
Mm. There is not
Soperman (39:48.973)
Nope.
gavin (39:50.392)
Huh, and what and how does it feel? Is it is is is it as bad as it is in the news?
Soperman (39:57.081)
Well, I've not found anywhere to live yet. The housing situation is pretty brutal, but a and and this is perhaps testament to my priorities, I have managed to buy a hang glider already.
gavin (40:01.452)
Yeah.
Soperman (40:09.506)
So so the the main main thing is sorted. And I I had a flight at the fort at Fort Funston. That that lived up to the all the hype. That was cracking. and a couple of couple of small XCs in the vicinity, one from Vaca, one from Diablo, and then a pretty big triangle from Slide and Tahoe.
gavin (40:13.653)
Excellent, excellent.
gavin (40:19.992)
Yeah.
gavin (40:34.369)
wigging getting up the tahoe.
Soperman (40:36.502)
Yeah, that was actually my personal altitude record, four thousand seven hundred and seventy seven meters.
gavin (40:42.51)
you're getting close, man. Well, you if you go up to the Owens, you'll have no trouble with that. It's the you're fighting the opposite. You're trying to stay below it. It's a pain in the ass. God, I hate those days where you're just, why can't we go to twenty two? I did a pretty remarkable night flight, you know, with Gordon and his sailplane in the in the wave out of Minden, I guess a couple of winters ago now, and that's what we gotta do, is just be able to call the tower and get exceptions and
Soperman (40:44.033)
Yeah.
Soperman (40:50.254)
Yeah.
Soperman (41:04.118)
Well.
gavin (41:10.274)
bust into it, you know. But there there are days here in some in the Rockies where, you know, those days that are twenty one, twenty two, twenty three thousand and it's it's actually hard. It's they're really tough to stay below eighteen. You know, if you're on any kind of normally we don't even care. If if it's just a normal flight, we'll there's n we don't have to worry about anybody up there. But but you know, if we're trying for a record or some kind of thing and and trying to do it all legit, it's it can be really hard to stay below that.
Soperman (41:12.108)
Yeah.
Soperman (41:37.645)
Yeah. Speaking of night that that's I need to need to get some oxygen thor sorted, I think. Speaking of night flights, I went to Norway last summer and took off in June and landed in July. My little claim to fame. It was a only a ten minute flight, but it was it was midnight there around the solstice.
gavin (41:38.528)
And you're hypoxic, you're not thinking very well. There's all that side of it too, but
gavin (41:47.253)
Yeah yeah.
gavin (42:03.991)
cool. I I I just my brain took a second to catch up to that.
Did you do much flying up there? it looks amazing. Talking about we're we're zipping all over the world here.
Soperman (42:15.82)
tried. I had a a bit of a hypothesis that I wanted to test that the Scandinavian countries would be good for an open distance record because they've obviously got loads of hours of daylight and Norway and Sweden look like they ought to have some possibility for convergence down the length of them. Indeed the power gliders have done very well in Sweden and 500 or so in in Finland.
And I just love the love the scenery of the fjords. It's unparalleled. So I I wanted to see if it was any good for hand gliding. and i the conditions were quite lean. you could only fly one day in three in in the middle of summer if if you really tried. there was only only one flight I managed over a hundred K. but the
The midnight flight really sticks out in my memory. Couldn't do that in too many places in the world.
gavin (43:15.672)
Mm.
gavin (43:18.967)
Are you towing there? That was all foot launch, okay. Brazil, have you done Brazil? Okay.
Soperman (43:21.302)
No, no, that was all foot launched.
Soperman (43:27.35)
Not yet. Hopefully heading there for the world next year if I get selected.
gavin (43:31.36)
Mm. Mm. Yeah, that was interesting to watch. Yeah, I went down there I think in twenty seventeen. So this was the year after Rafael and those guys broke the PG record, which has since been broken a bunch of times. But he and I and there was a big group, we were all flying to SEMA and this was you know, then they figured out that well we should just tow here so we don't have to deal with this gnarly wind, you know, right at the it was
gnarly. E every time taking off was just, god, I hope I can do this. It was sketchy, but and then there's this whole you know, you then you just surf it for a long time until the thermal start coming through and then you go three K and hop to another one and then you gotta clear this really treacherous plateau for forty K or so. But watching the hang gliders, they took off at a different spot. It was more of a cliff launch for them.
And when it was too strong for us, which was often, we would go over there and watch them 'cause it didn't really seem like anything could be too strong for them. But it was you know, it wasn't a one person operation. You had a lot of help on launch and God, it was scary. I I mean they didn't seem very scared, but it's sure scary watching it 'cause there's just there
You know, when they're in the right position, it's you're fine. In the wrong position, it's whoa. And they were always in the right pos I never saw any Carnage. It was fantastic. Whereas when we would launch it was always Carnage. It was just, God, look at that. he just pulled it off. It was crazy. But I think that
Soperman (44:40.834)
Yeah.
Soperman (44:51.31)
I really do admire your capacity for for carnage. And and even when when one's bit the dirt, y you're still queuing up to lob off
gavin (44:54.575)
Yeah.
gavin (45:02.663)
yeah. No, that's just look at that. Glad I'm not that guy. tell me about your future. What's I mean, I don't mean you personally, but hang gliding. You know, when I talk to hang gliders it's always a little bit of doom and gloom, but also a lot of sparkle, you know, flying prone is is super cool. is it gonna make it? Is it gonna survive? Is it gonna grow? What do you what what's your vision?
Soperman (45:06.21)
Yeah.
Soperman (45:28.97)
Or flying prone will never get old. that's yeah, it it it is absolutely the the most bird like form of flight, and it's the flight that we we dreamt of as a species long before we could even verbalize it. our dreams of flying are are never f feet first or or rarely. so it will always remain the the pinnacle of human endeavor, I think, hand gliding.
in terms of whether it will survive in its current form, possibly not. it might well do like that universe big bang, big collapse thing, but if it if it does collapse down to a a singularity, it will rise from the ashes again. we might end up in the not too distant future.
Perhaps even returning to the underground. Maybe that's what it will take to revitalize it is a hard core of of renegades restarting it, looking through the the old pictures to to build things in their garages again. and that might I think something will always prevail. It's the oldest dream.
gavin (46:42.263)
Mm. Mm. Going back to the the pictures and in the the magazine and everybody's building it in their garage with whatever they can find on the streets. I like that. That's a cool vision.
Soperman (46:51.244)
Yeah. Personally personally I'm stockpiling gliders, just in case. But so as long as I've got enough to see me out, I'll be happy.
gavin (47:01.507)
Are you sponsored? Do you get gear? Has that been part of your program?
Soperman (47:06.504)
no, I I've tried for well, back along I did have sponsorship from from the inimitable Simon Murphy. very proud to have flown under his banner for for several years. but as of now I'm I'm available. Hit me up.
gavin (47:23.503)
There you go. Hey, you're in the right place. we we we should probably close on robotics because and I am not the person to ask questions about this, so you just lead the way here. I just recently started using Claude and it's kinda blowing my mind. But I I I am an AI neophyte. I don't know anything about you know, crypto. I I this is all just way beyond me. I'm just a paraglider. So but
Soperman (47:35.851)
Okay.
Soperman (47:40.354)
Congratulations.
Soperman (47:48.91)
I am talking to the real Gavin, aren't I? And not not the AI clone of you that you've outsourced the work to.
gavin (47:51.916)
You i it as far as I know, there are days I wake up and I'm not too sure, but yeah, as far as I know. But if this thing hits, it sounds super exciting. Is it do you are you f you're trying to find money? Where what stage you at? What and why did why why this part of the world? yeah, why answer all those things that people are curious about.
Soperman (48:15.286)
Yeah, so far I built a prototype. We filled a pipeline of fields to be weeded in the UK. then we realized that California is a better place to launch because we can do weeding all year round, not just three months of the year. twelve month agriculture here in the well, Salinas Valley for starters, and raised a little bit of capital to to relocate out here and start hiring the team locally and crack on. we are
Still fundraising for a larger amount to to buy a small runway. and
Get the ball rolling. but things are happening.
gavin (48:58.243)
Th no so weeding, so instead of roundup we can send the robots out there and just get rid of all the bad stuff. Is that what you mean?
Soperman (49:07.038)
It initially we're going after organic weeding, where the the state of the art is still humans going through the fields pulling weeds out by hand. But ultimately once we've saturated that, we will be competitive with herbicide application. So then we can go after the the conventional weeding market and hopefully make all food organic.
gavin (49:27.351)
my god, that's super exciting. What a cool thing to be working in. That would be awesome.
Soperman (49:31.852)
People are realising that herbicide's bad for us, it's bad for the planet, and and weeds are becoming herbicide resistant too. So if we can do all weeding mechanically, then that's that's a win win.
gavin (49:39.043)
Sure.
gavin (49:45.887)
And is this pie in the sky type stuff, or do you really believe that this could be done?
Soperman (49:53.139)
it's it's both. It is it is a pie in the sky and we're gonna eat it. well
gavin (49:58.416)
I mean, 'cause Monsanto's pretty big. You're talking about ushering aside a massive industry and I'm all for it. This is great. th sign me up, but whoa.
Soperman (50:09.986)
They no matter how big they are, they can't stop weeds becoming herbicide resistant. and and that's a problem that's just gonna get worse and worse and worse until it could be catastrophic for the the food supply. weeding is one of those big problems that's only getting bigger, rearing its head. In terms of using humanoids for it, that a few years ago would have seemed implausible, but now
Thanks to the the greater physical AI boom, we're seeing so much investment into humanoids that and so much interest in it that now there's now economies of scale and the price of humanoid hardware has has tanked. So we're able to ride on those coat towers and buy a seven degree of freedom arm for less than making a a two doff specialized weeding implement.
gavin (51:04.314)
Dude, yeah. If you could see right now, I know this is an audio podcast, but this is the brain going p choo wee. Sounds sounds amazing. Well, I I wish you and your team the very best of luck. You've made a huge move here with in in some ways enormous risk, but at this at the same time I guess it's one of those you know, there's nothing to lose, which I love being in that position. That was one of the coolest places I've been in.
Soperman (51:11.992)
Yeah.
gavin (51:33.316)
bunch of years ago where I you know, when you don't have much to lose, you you can you can make bold moves, can't you? So I I hope that this yeah, man, I wish you guys the best. This would be super exciting, for the planet and for your pocketbook. Sounds awesome.
Soperman (51:48.386)
when you've stood on the edge of a cliff attached to something you designed and built, emigrating doesn't seem like such a big risk after all.
gavin (51:56.503)
Right yeah, we have to put it in perspective, don't we?
Soperman (51:58.337)
I I'm referring to my my master's project, which was to prototype a telescopic hang glider.
gavin (52:05.53)
Whoa telescopic hang glider, I think we need a little more explanation. What? What'd you just say?
Soperman (52:11.832)
so I I took up hang gliding as I said when I was seventeen and then immediately after that I went and moved to Uni where I found I I couldn't go hang gliding because the the hang glider ten metre wingspan folds down to still a five metre long package and my room was only three meters long. so I decided for my my phone on U year project I was going to make a telescopic hang glider that would be small enough to fit inside my really teeny Toyota Yaris, so it had to be less than two meters long.
and existing short packs didn't cut it because although you can disassemble them to be short, you still end up with a big bundle of of aluminium. whereas I wanted something where all the all the tubes telescoped inside each other so that the stowed volume would be smaller. And then I had this dream of going hike and fly with a hang glider. I know y you just say, Well, what's wrong with a paraglider? But no, it's it's all about prone. So I wanted to make hike and fly a thing.
Hang gliding too. and I proposed this to the the aerospace department. Hey, I I want to make a a telescopic hang glider in there like no. they had these visions of me jumping off a cliff and and meeting a terrible demise and bringing bad publicity on the uni. nobody in the mechanical engineering department would touch me with a barge pole either. so I ended up getting a
a professor in in the soil mechanic faculty who well he had to take on a number of students each year and we came to an arrangement where if I didn't trouble him he would sign me off at the end of it. so there I I went off on design built this telescopic hang glider and and test fluid and I'm still here. So my maths couldn't have been couldn't have been all bad.
gavin (54:08.186)
You know what, they they I I I got some coaching a while back when I was doing the exops from Kriegel's coach for a l a long time and they worked together forever and he was always he always said, you know, you r you really gotta focus y your strengths. You don't y you know, we gotta fix the weaknesses, but really just focus on your strengths. I I take it that
persistence is one of your strengths and that's this is not something you have to worry about. You're you're gonna bludgeon away until you get there. So I I see success for you. There hopefully some people are listening that have fatter wallets than I do that may want to invest. But there why w let's close on that. How do people find out more about your project? Is it too early to find out too much? But and how do people find more
Soperman (54:31.662)
Ha ha ha
gavin (54:50.188)
about you. We'll have all this in the show notes. we know when we launch this show, but where do people go to find more about what you're doing?
Soperman (54:53.848)
Yeah.
Soperman (54:57.912)
The company the company's Telekin, think telekinesis. The website is telekin.tech, and you can find more about me at sopa dot tech.
gavin (55:06.358)
And and your nickname is Soperman. I like that. I love it. Jeremy, awesome man. Great great to talk to you and see you and congratulations on the move. And yeah, again, good luck with this whole project. It sounds truly amazing. And good luck with finding another place for out and out and returns and getting tall in the Sierras. That all just happened, but
Soperman (55:08.888)
Superman, yeah.
Soperman (55:23.414)
Thank you very much. Hope to fly with you soon in the
Yeah, hope hope to fly with you soon in in the Rockies.
gavin (55:32.496)
That'd be great. You invited any time. We need more HGs over here. It used to be big and it's you don't see too many anymore. But yeah, we we'd love to have you. You've of course heard a king. That's just in my backyard, so that's where we see him still. That's a fantastic place. But yeah, thanks, Jeremy. Appreciate it.
