Jocky Sanderson literally wrote the book on SIV and training and is one of the most celebrated advanced instructors in the game. Jocky was a competition pilot for 10 years (reaching 3rd in the world in 95′) and has been a major player in the world of free flight for nearly 30. He has produced the sports’ most comprehensive instructional videos – Performance Flying, Security in Flight 1 and 2, and Speed to Fly that are a MUST in anyone’s flying library. In this comprehensive podcast we talk about it all- competitions, modern gliders and what’s changed in SIV, is SIV necessary, what’s the most important maneuver in your tool kit, what kind of pilots are most likely to get hurt, how to advance with limited time, why accidents happen, when to push and when to back off, when to move up to a higher performance wing, reserves, the importance of confidence and a LOT more. I hope you enjoy this fun and information-packed episode!
How Jocky has developed his SIV training and what’s changed with modern gliders
Who SIV is right, and wrong for
2 liners and dynamicism and the evolution of SIV
How much SIV and when to do it? Is SIV good for everyone…or even necessary?
The most important maneuver in your tool kit
Hot to get good on limited time and avoid the ground suck crowd
Why accidents happen, and the dark side of flying
When to move up to a higher performance wing…and when not to
The importance of confidence in flying
Mentioned in this episode: John Sylvester, Matt Gerdes, Cedar Wright, Robbie Whittal, John Pendry, Barney Woodhead, Mike Calve, Chris White, David Wheeler, Hugh Miller
Speaker 1 (00:00:05):
Hi there everybody. Welcome to another episode of the cloud based mayhem. This is number 19, I believe. Ah, that's about 19 in our first year of operations. Um, more than I thought we do and a lot less than I had hoped to do of course. But, uh, before we get into this one with jockey Sanderson the legend, I'm so excited to bring you this show. Just a few little logistical things. I'm, I'm taking off for Alaska here in a few days. Uh, Dave Turner and I are going to attempt to fly the full length of the Alaskan range. This is another red bull project. Uh, some of you may have seen just recently red bull TV put out. It's live on the internet free. Uh, you can watch the Rockies traverse that's been on tour now for the last few months with BAMF and a bunch of other festivals, but you can watch it live now in HD on TV.
Speaker 1 (00:00:50):
So hopefully a good chance to check that out. Pretty fun film by real water productions. Red bull media house, uh, documents will and eyes line down the Canadian Rockies to the U S border back in 2014. Uh, we've got the national geographic adventures of the year for that one, which was a pretty cool, but yeah, I've been getting a lot of comments on that. If you haven't checked it out, you can find that on my Facebook page or just Google it. It's all over the place right now. Uh, yeah, super psyched for this trip to Alaska. We planned to take four to eight weeks to complete this, so I've tried to line up a couple of podcasts that will be released while I'm gone. I've got this one of course now with jockey and I'm also sitting down with brutes Goldsmith this weekend and a hope one person wore. I'll leave that as a surprise.
Speaker 1 (00:01:35):
Uh, and then, but otherwise I do apologize. I won't be able to turn these out like I usually do when I'm in Alaska. Of course food pretty much off coms. You can track that a whole thing. We're going to have kind of live tracking through Delorme. Uh, we're going to have a map page put up by them and Dave Wheeler, that'll also be on cloud-based ma'am and on the Facebook so you can kind of see what's going on with that whole thing. It's a pretty nerve wracking and a lot of ways. I've got a little article coming out in cross country about it, about the preparation side of things in the next issue. So be on the lookout for that. But counting, we're crossing more glaciers than I can even count. We're gonna fly the North side of the range. This is all theory. Uh, no one's flown up there really.
Speaker 1 (00:02:17):
So, uh, yeah. Should be pretty interesting now. Anyway, this podcast. Yeah, jockey Sanderson. I did an SIV, well, I'm really more of an acro clinic with him back in 2012, uh, in old dentists in Turkey, uh, jockey. She's got so much energy. I've been watching his films. Uh, for years. I was totally addicted to performance free flying. Uh, his film security and flight security flight to are just phenomenal. If you haven't seen him, you must get them. They're fantastic. Uh, this episode is packed with info ego way down the rabbit hole on this one, on all kinds of things. A modern wings should you carry two reserves. Uh, a lot of things that I think are really going to
Speaker 2 (00:03:00):
surprise you as SIV necessary. Um, who's SIV good for and bad for? When are you ready? When are you not, when should you repeat to what's the most important maneuver you should have in your toolkit? Um, all kinds of, I think really valuable information. I've also asked a bunch of questions that came through via the Facebook, uh, for jockey, which he was happy to answer. So, uh, I think you're going to love it. I certainly did. Without further ado, dr Sanderson jockey Sanderson, it is awesome to have you on the show. Sorry for that little blip there. We're going to have to redo this, but, uh, where are you these days? What are you doing? And, uh, and thanks for your time.
Speaker 3 (00:03:54):
Uh, I'm at home actually this week. Uh, just got back from Australia and, um, we're just doing some nice family stuff, hanging out, relaxing before we head off to Turkey next week.
Speaker 2 (00:04:06):
Okay. Yeah. You, you set an incredibly busy schedule. You know, the, when when we met, I took a course from you back in Turkey in 2012 I was doing some, an acro thing with Johan, one of your buddies. And, uh, that was really the kind of the ramp up. That's what started me on all this, uh, absurdity and the [inaudible] and everything else. And then the last time I saw you, we were getting ready for the X ops and Annecy in, in June.
Speaker 3 (00:04:29):
That's right. Yeah. And it's great to see that. It's great to follow your progress as well from doing the SIV and acro to flying in billing where we met and fluid Johns, Arista, and then, then in Annecy. It's been fantastic. You just keep it up. Keep that [inaudible].
Speaker 2 (00:04:45):
Oh, well thanks very much. Well, it's a, you know, I go on the coattails of guys like you and mentors that have gone before me. You know, usually I like to ask about, uh, take, take me back and share with me some of your history, but I don't think I'd get to answer this answer. Uh, ask a second question if I did that with you. My goodness. You, you've been at this 30 years.
Speaker 3 (00:05:05):
Yeah. 25, 30 years. Yeah. Over a quarter of a century.
Speaker 2 (00:05:08):
That is just, that is just amazing. You mentioned John Sylvester. What a legend. No, that, I love that guy. Yeah, really true. I was, I did my first Bibi trip with him for beer. Yeah, that's right. You were there.
Speaker 3 (00:05:24):
So he came down and flew back the next day, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (00:05:27):
Exactly. Yeah, it was amazing. Next day we were encased in ice that night I didn't bring a sleeping bag. I just brought all my down. I figured, well that, you know, I fly and it's cold. It can't be any worse. And made a little fire that night and wrap myself around the fire and woke up the next morning at nine 30 and it was already on and dialed up and flew back to beer before anybody had even launched. And beer. I just thought, Oh my God, this is amazing. We got to do more of this.
Speaker 3 (00:05:53):
Definitely. And that's why is that what got you addicted to X up stuff?
Speaker 2 (00:05:57):
Totally. That was the first one that I have to give him all the credit. Absolutely. Yeah, that was, I just thought, man, I really need more of this. That's where Cedar Wright calls it the sky crack. Hey. Um, so what, I would love to start this off with that rather than hearing about all those comp years, which I know is exciting and I'd love to have you tell me a story of that. But how did you transition from comps, I believe is kind of the late nineties, uh, with Robbie whittle and John Pendry and all those guys who were flying around with, how did you go from that to, to what you're doing now? Is that, that, you know, this instructional side has been really the greater part of your flying career? Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (00:06:38):
Yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed competitions. They're fantastic. I never really, I mean, I enjoyed it for flying with my friends and having a great time. And being paid and sponsored to travel the world and just fly is just a tremendous, tremendously fortunate thing to be able to do. But, um, I never really had that killer instinct wanting, you know, or yours and to competition, wanting to win. But, uh, I enjoyed it too much and you know, I mean I finished third and stuff like that and it was good, good fun. But, um, it, uh, I'm much preferred teaching actually. It's just sharing, um, knowledge and seeing smiles on people's faces as they, they achieve things. So I got more of a reward from, from teaching. Uh, but the main reason I stopped was just to start in a family and not, not being able to justify competition flying when you've got young kids,
Speaker 2 (00:07:33):
was a lot of that because of the risk or was it more of the time?
Speaker 3 (00:07:37):
A little bit of both. Um, so I mean, I, I'd been doing it for 10 years and it was just time to start a family and I had to cut out a few things to keep me home a bit more. And the competition was one of the things that went really. Um, but, uh, I mean, I always look back with great fondness. I think it's a fantastic thing to do, um, and brilliantly rewarding and incredibly bonding with other pilots, sharing it. And it really teaches you a lot about yourself, you know, from competitions to preparation to discipline, you know, the whole thing. And it's great, great to do when, especially when you're young, but at anytime you life, as long as you want to do it, that's the key. Don't feel like you have to do it.
Speaker 2 (00:08:20):
Mmm. And, and how did the SIV thing start? How did that was, you know, was that, was that pretty common back in the day to be doing SIV training or did you kind of lead the way?
Speaker 3 (00:08:31):
Uh, we, what we did is we, I used to test, uh, for apples and we, we used to do sort of testing, um, for manufacturers and some development work and for our spirits association. And it was very, you know, we did, we did testing and it was, you know, it tested for distillation, spin store recovery, things like that. Um, and it was very young then. There weren't really SIV causes such, but it was,
Speaker 4 (00:08:56):
it was something that I thought people would benefit from, um, learning themselves. And they weren't really courses. There were sort of, there were similar things but not very, not very, um, um, detailed. Uh, and so we put it together. What I basically did was put a test flight, uh, broke it down into course structure. So deflations searching for spins, searching muscles, stalls and spirals and, and various other maneuvers. Um, and so you sort of break a test, fly into a course and then that, so the SIV courses evolved for us anyway. Um, and you know, I think it's the thing that people do benefit from. It gives them confidence and it gives an understanding in a glider and a confidence in their ability to control it. So it's the thing that worked. Um, so yeah, it's a great thing to do.
Speaker 2 (00:09:51):
Your, your videos, um, performance free flying. You know, I had that on the boat as I was sailing around the world. I learned in 2006 and I, I would watch that video over and over. I mean, God, it was like, it was like the matrix for me. It was just something I just could not get enough of. And just the quality of it and the, the way you instruct, I, I've been trying to send people your way forever, ever since those, those early days. But, um, how did you, I guess, let me, let me ask a different question. How have things changed for you with SIV, with modern gliders? How have you adapted over the years and what have you seen? Is it getting safe or, I'm asking more than one question here, but is it getting safer?
Speaker 4 (00:10:37):
I think in general, yes. Uh, it's, uh, what's happening is, in the old days, people used to have to, in order to get performance, they'd have to sacrifice a little bit of safety. So to get at that top end of speed, they'd have to fly gliders quite fast or quite dynamic. And so they'd sacrifice a bit safety these days with modern design technology. The, the, the, the curve of performance or the curve of safety, uh, sort of nicely matched now. And so, and also because of education, pilots are flying gliders that are well within the remit rather than feeling they have to fly gliders a way faster and more dynamic than what they're practically used to. Um, so it's in general it has got safety yeah. With glider design and with pilots flying sensible wings now, um, with the two liners and stuff like that, that's where it becomes more dynamic, more interesting.
Speaker 4 (00:11:31):
Um, with the shark nose with direct back, uh, lines, rigging and stuff like that. That's makes it more, um, we had to change the style of teaching, uh, and just develop as the gliders developed really. And to, we always have to evolve. Every single SRV instructor would turn around and say, you can never relax on your, you have to keep watching and succeeding. Develop. Because whether if you can fly the gliders yourself, even better because then you can put it through all the paces yourself and really understand what you're doing. Um, but also you see patterns emerging as pilots are flying out and they're doing stuff and you think, wow, that was interesting. So you start playing with gliders and seeing the best way to get Kravets out, things like that. But in general, we, that all SRV instructors have slightly different ways of teaching, but the main message is pretty much the same I'd say.
Speaker 1 (00:12:24):
And how much is enough or not enough? How much should people be doing SIV training,
Speaker 4 (00:12:31):
um, for themselves? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think w people ask that, you know, when should I do one and you shouldn't have to do or never feel you have to do one. Um, I think the key is when it's holding you back, when that feeling of, um, doubt is holding you back. So, you know, you get to a stage in your flying where you're thermally and you're getting to base and you're, you're flying, but there's a little bit element of doubt. You're looking at your wing a bit, you're breaking a bit too much, you know, and you think you're little. What happened if, and then when that starts to happen, you know it's time to, to do a course because that's the time when you think, right. Actually, you know, I want to free up a bit more concentration to focus on good things in my flight, not the negative, which is looking at my glider and trying to control it.
Speaker 4 (00:13:20):
So by that, when they get to that stage, which is normally about, depends how you fly, where you fly, but it normally is between 50 and a hundred hours as, as general people are often want to do it much earlier than that and so much later. But generally that's the way it'll go where they're just, they're meeting the guest just getting into the first 20 K flights and then they start to think, and that's when they start to do an SLV cause that's when it really benefits, um, the pilot because they get an understanding of the wing, that trust in the wing and trust in their handling. It's all about being quick to react, but also quick to back off as well. And that's what SIV teaches you. And uh, you know, it's very important to that people want to do it. And that's why I say to people, if I've got 10 hours and they really want to do it, then I wouldn't hold them back either.
Speaker 4 (00:14:16):
Um, because they're a blank canvas when they're so, uh, so little experience. They're just full of enthusiasm like puppies. Uh, but they've got that mr Magoo, they get away with anything just with blind optimism and they're just, they're generally flying gliders pretty safe. So they have a ball and they do these maneuvers that they're doing. You know, in three days you do maneuvers you thought you'd never be able to do. And the progression is very progressive. We don't accelerate people, but it always feels right when they're doing the certain maneuver that they're about to do. And if it doesn't, then they just either hold on or go a few stages. But generally people really enjoy it and get a lot out of the course. Uh, and also the trust in the glider is immense. But then you can have the same guy coming on a course who's already quite fearful and doesn't enjoy flying and he's coming on a course to give himself more confidence.
Speaker 4 (00:15:12):
That's the wrong take because you need to build your confidence up, um, and you need to build it up in a nice progressive way, not force yourself. You've got to always land wanting to go back up and do it again. And that's, I think the key for anyone that does any sort of maneuvers or pillar. Taj SIU, ACRA anything. If you land thinking, I thank God that's over then it's not thinking about the ELLs, but if you landing, wow, that's fantastic. I want to go and try that again. You know, that's when you know it's really working and SIV does that. You learned anything I find out it could be up there again, I just want to do that again to just make it a bit better. You know, that's the sort of buzz you want to get.
Speaker 2 (00:15:54):
Mm. I think that's really important for sure. I think the listeners get a lot out of that when you and how do you keep, how should you keep going with that? Cause I when you know, when I came and took your course I was kind of different. I was taking the acro side of things but everybody there was taking this, you know your standard awesome SIV course and you know it's so funny to watch the progression of the week because in the beginning people are a little bit nervous and then they start to get some confidence but it's building up to the full stall day and the full stall day, everybody is silent. He's just so nervous to go up and do their and then they do it and it's awesome and they land on the beach and they're just there through the moon. And I remember, I think it was in performance flying you said, you know whenever you get a new wing that's the first thing you do is go up and do full stalls and get used to that wing. And I've always done that ever since with all of my wings. That's the first thing I do as well. But you do want to be comfortable, especially if you're doing all over the dirt, uh, with full stalls and acro stalls and that kind of thing. But how do, how do you take people, where do you leave them at the end of the course and when should they come back and what should they still be doing?
Speaker 4 (00:17:03):
Hmm. I think, um, uh, we always won every pilot and instructor who, uh, around the world wants to finish the course, feeling confident, um, and happy with our wing and happy with the abilities to control the wing. That's what the whole thing is designed for. I think if the minute you, if you're doing a course and you start to feel a bit, uh, everyone gets nervous, but it's a positive sort of nervous cause once they do it, it's fantastic and it builds on the next maneuver they're about to do. Um, and so we always want them to go away armed with more confidence, um, and more positive attitude towards flying. I think during a course it's, it's key for us. Uh, and for an ESL instructor to see if a person's not responding or not really enjoying it. Um, to just gently slow it down, slow the progression down and focus on the stuff they good at, the stuff that I enjoy.
Speaker 4 (00:17:58):
And so that when they land, they land more positive and more hungry to learn more. And then we just gently steer them into the right channel and then we can get them back on track to, to learning more about the wing and, you know, stalling and, and stuff like that. They see stalling. Now it's an amazing thing. The course. Oh, it still dies a quiet day cause that's the one that they building up to. But funnily enough, uh, now I always ask, you know, with stores as spiral, so which one did you like? You know, is it most nervous at this store? Was it the store you didn't like? Who is it? The spiral it didn't like? And now the trend is they don't like spirals. They like the stores, they weren't as bad as they talk and it was a spiral. They didn't like so interesting the way it's gone.
Speaker 4 (00:18:43):
Um, mainly because people are very fearful of blacking out with spirals and things like that. And there's a lot of locking in issues that uh, we have to address now. So that sort of thing. But yeah, it's, it's, it's funny how trends go. You know, in a decade they've gone from assay hating stores to not actually not minding stuff, but again with stores we, you know, you go in, you teach sort of a false doors that are locked around so that it's safer cause they don't accidentally release it and let it dive over them and have a horrendous time. So, but as they get more progressive and they can understand the forces, then we, we go more into sort of stalled tile slide, easing up the brakes and monitoring that dive and learning about that pressure point. So it's a, you know, there's this finesse and training even to stores.
Speaker 4 (00:19:33):
They're not so binary is on and off. And that's where, you know, a good SIV course should sort of bring that out rather than just ticking boxes. It should, it's true. Is have a, a pilot landing and finishing a course and yeah, most of my answers, my questions were answered and my confidence has gone up, you know, and it's opened a door to make you more hungry to learn, uh, and give you more confidence in your, in your flying. And I don't think people need to come back all the time. A lot of people get the bug. Um, I think, yeah, I've got to do this every time when I get a new wing or, you know, every couple of years I'll come back. I think once you've got the understanding of it, it's there. It's lost for quite a long time. Um, I think what it does do now with the beauty of acro is it shows, wow, you know, I can, I could have this much fun on my glider, which is designed for generally they're designed for thermal Ling and, and cross country flying. But look how dynamic and actually safe, you know, a glider isn't big wing overs and big transitions. Then the fun, you can have it starting to serve people now. Thank you. I enjoy that so much. I'm going to try SATs and a wing over moves and yeah, looping moves. And if I really enjoy that, I'm going to progress more into acro, but that's just a complete another sport. You know, it's independent in itself.
Speaker 2 (00:20:57):
Mm. But it's so correlated isn't it? You know, I've, I've, I've decided after the [inaudible] this year that I really needed to focus very heavily on acro and these next couple of years before the next one because it's just, it allows you to, um, get into worse air, uh, more comfortably. You know, it's just that, that training of knowing what your wings doing without looking at it, that feel is you just get so sensitive with acro. I think they really correlate.
Speaker 4 (00:21:25):
Yeah, definitely. And the, the great thing is it's correlating through play. And that's what pilots were out there enjoying. Uh, you know, and that's the key. That's the end of it. We were up there cause we're playing, we're enjoying it. And if you're doing our and having a ball and playing, it's a totally different spin to, if you're up there being terrified on a wing that you're looking at. And Whoa to, to over break and, and you're just not having a good time. The same pilot, the same wing can be totally different Headspace. And yeah, as you say, you know, doing acro totally because you're so attuned with the glider and the pitch and the dive and the handling. You can really, you don't, you're not even thinking about it. And that's what SIV does sort of sows. That seed gives you that little bit of confidence. But obviously, you know, for five days of an accurate, uh, SRV course will, will not make your master. You have to go and practice and practice and get really into it. And taking the excerpts example, that's a great example because you look at the conditions, you fly in the wind conditions you have to take off in a not, you don't have to.
Speaker 2 (00:22:32):
Yeah. If you want to compete, if you want to win,
Speaker 4 (00:22:36):
I have a challenge, but it's not dangerous. It's not dangerous if you train. And that's the key. So you get a lot of pilots that judge exi, uh, accepts pilots or they just learn it. They're not learn it. They're just such athletes. They've trained so hard, they can pop a glider up in 40 Ks of wind easy and get off a Boulder field, no problem. Because they know they can because they've trained and it's all about training. So you know, we did, you know, teaching SIV and teaching cross country, you know, we show the pilots a door, it's up to them to go through it and practice and do more and more to get to whatever level they want to get to where they get 100% out of the sport that they love.
Speaker 2 (00:23:18):
One of the questions jockey I get a lot are, are people that come in and they, you know, gosh, it's so great to hear from all these people that it's basically their profession. They get to do this all the time. But Hey, I've got a job. I've got a family. I can really only fly on the weekends. How do I get good? What do you, what did we say to them? You know, the 50 hour pilots a year, you know, what should they be focusing on?
Speaker 4 (00:23:42):
Uh, so that is such a good question. We, we, um, I, I'm really there for them because, uh, they do, they've got priorities. They've got families, they've got work, and they'd go perhaps two weeks of a year, they can treat themselves to going on holiday with their friends, flooring if they're lucky. And so you've really got a, we always say to our guiding teams, look, anyone that comes on a week with us, we have to give them 100% because this is the week. And you know, we've got a given whatever they need to give them as much flying, as much knowledge, um, because you know, time is precious for, for people. But I think the key is getting stuck in with a group that is as enthusiastic as you are. That's one thing. So don't feel, you know, you have to just go on a Hill and wait to introduce yourself to people and just get a group of likeminded people.
Speaker 4 (00:24:38):
And so if you're feeling a bit flat when we a bit tired, then someone's going to call you and get you out. If you're in that group. So you get a group, they're all like, come on, this guy's looking good next week. And even if you're busy at work, you might get a little text from your buddies saying Sadie is looking good and suddenly you're on it. Rather than just waking up doing nothing on that Saturday, you're actually up focused and you've got, you know, guys in the team that are following the weather. The gigs are following the best routes to do. And then you're providing the transport and out you go and you fly as a team and with a bit of banter and you're really getting the most out of the day. And that's the way you benefit. That's the way any weekend fly would benefit from, from flying.
Speaker 4 (00:25:20):
And that's what's happening in the UK now. Um, it was led by, you know, Barney, uh, and uh, Mike Carvin, all the guys, they're doing these mega distances and they're all doing it because they're just a group of mates having a laugh, uh, researching the weather and going for it. And there's no reason why we can flies can't do that. Um, and it makes it so much nicer, you know, when you think, ah, could I be asked to go flying today? You know? Yes, you should. And if you've got three or four mates calling you up saying, Hey, what about it, then it makes you do it. So I would say get out and practice as much as you can and get a little group of buds the same, uh, different characters. You can't be all the same, but, uh, the same, the same focus, the same love of it.
Speaker 4 (00:26:10):
Uh, and then keep away from the ground suck when you get onto the Hill and they're sitting there saying, yeah, we'll be going up today. Look at that. We had a collapse, you know, keeping away from them and focusing on the positive. And if you arrive with your mates, there's nothing nicer. You know, we, we arrived with us flying in Australia last week and I was fortunate enough to get my boys out, so Josh said came out and we were a family holiday for two weeks and we arrived. My Josh flies now and we arrived at this Blackie at this place and we just looked it up. We found a few friends, the guys, the local pilots were fantastic. They gave his top advice. Um, we all went down, we said some great flying together and let a bit of banter on launch and landing. What a great day. You know, and it's all about not turning up on your own, feeling that self conscious. It's about, you know, being with people and not being afraid to talk and get stuck in with other people. And you can do that better as a little pack, a little gaggle of buddies. And that's what I would love to again.
Speaker 2 (00:27:22):
Mm. Mmm. I like that. Surround yourself with good folks and mentors and it'll all, it's, it makes it a lot easier, doesn't it? Um,
Speaker 4 (00:27:29):
yeah, exactly. And if you, if you're not, you know, you might be the one fizzing people at one weekend and then others might be fizzing up the next and that's the way it should go. But just keep away from the negative ground, suck posse and just get on and do your thing.
Speaker 2 (00:27:43):
Jockey. Um, not to go to the dark side here, but just because it's paragliding and it, it is, it is part of the sport, um, accidents. You've, I'm sure seen plenty in your years. Um, are there common threads and themes, um, that you see that, that caused them?
Speaker 4 (00:28:02):
Uh, yeah, I would say it's people, um, often just flying in environments. They're not 100% comfortable with themselves, but feel that they should be. Um, and often that's, we will have, um, performance in pigs and troughs, confidence, pigs and troughs and, um, attention, pigs and trusts. And it's as a part of the, the beautiful thing about the sport we do is you have to be honest with yourself because you know your judgments, uh, final. And if you make a mistake, you quickly change it and do another one and live, you know, learn from it. I think with people that have long breaks, um, people that fly in conditions that, yeah, last year they flew in the same conditions, but this year they're a bit jumpy and, and they're not, um, as quick. Um, they try to justify doing it and being there. But they're probably, the head's probably already screaming at them to get out or, and that's when they're flying outside the, um, the comfort zone, but feel they should be there.
Speaker 4 (00:29:18):
That's when accidents happen. You get this great, the great thing, and Matt goodness wrote an article recently about, you know, having that knowledge, you know, being totally naive, full of enthusiasm, and then you get to, you get the knowledge and then you, uh, you know, and it's all about knowing yourself and operating within it, pushed the boundaries gently when it feels right, push when it doesn't feel right just back off. But you don't have to do anything you that you feel that people think you should or, you know, there's a lot of people that fly gliders, for example, that they're racing and because they're chief instructors, they feel they have to fly them. Um, and which is wrong, you know, you should, you should fly where you're comfortable with. But we, for example, I flew, you know, in comps for years, you know, with prototype Gladys for years. But if I take, uh, just, you know, I don't fly much or I take a little confidence curve one year, Oh Oh drop down, I've dropped down to a rush before, um, and
Speaker 3 (00:30:20):
cruiser out of that because I'd rather be still flying but in it and in an environment I'm happy with then forcing myself to fly on stuff that I'm not happy with, cause that would make me stop flying eventually. Um, so you drop your, you drop your game a little bit, you enjoy the flying, buzzing around in safe gliders and then
Speaker 4 (00:30:40):
feels you feel hungry to do more and more and then you come back up again. So you go back up and you know, I've gotten flying my M cruise around and having a ball and it's all about that. And we, you know, you look at all the top guns at work at it all the time. Even John Sylvester and all the guys that are flying big conditions, you know, they can often, you know, if they've, and they'll drop down to the deltas or you know, any mid-range glide or a lower glider if they're not feeling happy that time. And because they're athletes and they know that's what they're comfortable with. Uh, and I think practice and being comfortable in your skin is important because, um, you know, the, the, the great thing about aviation is the decisions stop with you. And so accidents often happen when you've got all these variables start playing their part. Not one is a singular one you can put your finger on, but they all start playing their part in contributing to the, to the mistake you end up finding yourself in, whether it be in conditions. You shouldn't be on a glider, you shouldn't be, um, or you know, at a time you shouldn't be. They all played a small part towards, towards the actual incident itself. And it's, you look at any incident and you, you rewind the clock and there's something you can learn.
Speaker 2 (00:32:00):
When should, when should a pilot, when is a pilot ready to step up and, and why should they do it? Uh, obviously for the better performance, but, um, is, is there, is there a, a moment or a, a what do you, what do you advise pilots to do? Because these days there's a huge spread in the B and C range. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, there's the, you know, the hot B's are, you know, will GAD flew the Carerra on our Rockies traverse, you know, one of these, an incredible pilot. And it was, you know, and less and less, there was a lot of wind. You know, I was on the peak, uh, B3 a D, you know, he, he was just had no trouble keeping up. So, I mean, I think you can do a Stano [inaudible] amazing flights as we've seen in Europe in the last few years. The guys on mentors just sending it. Um, but, but when, when should a pilot move up?
Speaker 4 (00:32:52):
Um, I always think when it's holding them back, when, yeah, there's a feeling you get when you're going on a Clyde or, or you're just, there's a point in your flying where you just, you want more, your stomach muscles are tense. You want more out of it. Um, that's when you step up. But no, you're not. When you think you should, um, not when you're gliders has got tired and you want another glider, you think we'll have another Gladys, I need to get go up. You got, when you feel, when it's, it's a feeling and you know when the time is right, you're not, you don't step up because you think he should, he step up because you, uh, you feel held back by the glider you're in. But again, you know, if you're in a glider that is, uh, the Kurose career is a brilliant, you know, in the right hands.
Speaker 4 (00:33:42):
They're absolutely, they're absolutely fantastic wings and they fly brilliantly well. And, you know, look at that, you know, the rating has got the performance it gives, do you need to go up, you know, do you know, and it, it's great to fly a really good glider 100% then fly one racy and you're starting to fly. Ooh, not as well. And it's all about that currency and flying cars. I mean, you know, the guys that fly the ends of those and the peaks and, or you know, the, the, they're just beautiful gliders to see and fly. But you've got to be current and you've gotta be on it and you've got to be, you know, there all the time flying. And quite often as soon as you start dropping off the currency and dropping off that, that hunger, then yeah, you should gear down and don't be afraid of gearing up or down. It doesn't make any difference that you shouldn't have to go up or down. This is when it feels right.
Speaker 2 (00:34:41):
Jackie, you talked about, cause you, you teach a phenomenal XC courses as well. You, Chris, and um, when you talked about, uh, the low hours pilots surrounding themselves with a, with a good gaggle of folks and not the ground SOC folks, but, um, more on the technical side of things, like what would you say are the three things that, that, uh, come up again and again in terms of what, you know, w what people should work on.
Speaker 4 (00:35:07):
Um, I would say [inaudible] launching, um, make sure that you really, cause there's nothing worse than getting into a launch thinking, Oh crap, I'm high when launches. Cause you've already started on a negative. You're already thinking, Oh my God, I don't think I can get off from there. You know? But if you, if you know, you can nail a no one launches, reverse launches with a tailwind, um, high wind launches, you know, the Acela, the Cobra launch, you know, practicing all these different styles of launching. So the, you know, you, you don't even think about it. You look at the, you're looking at the sky and you see the appear at the table course and yeah, I could get off that and you bump up, it goes Bob off I'm gone. And it's something that is, you cannot practice enough. And uh, and I don't mean wait til it's honking wind and then go on a football field, which is flat and then get dragged around a bit and then give up.
Speaker 4 (00:36:01):
I mean, you know, go and nil winds going five, 10, 15, 20 Ks more of when different variations of it, different angles of slope as well. Everyone thinks they, they have to ground handle on the flat that you don't, when you take off on the flat, you know, you want to go on a hillside, steep Hill. The funniest thing I see people, I take people to Hills and they see a steep launch and it's quite windy and they think, Oh my God, that's horrendous. And it's like, that's safe. If he can do that same, you know, so why are you afraid of it? You shouldn't be afraid. You should be able to just get there, get it ready. Learn the little tricks that don't expose yourself to risk, you know, like having the glider prepared and getting it all bunch ready so that you can just present it to the wind and bang, you're up and gone and you know which way you're turning.
Speaker 4 (00:36:52):
Everything's all right. Gone. There's no coffee ruffling around. So yeah, I would say ground handling, definitely. Um, knowing your kids, uh, uh, is an important one. It's cause the time you I'm guilty of as well, you know, you get some Kitney you start fiddling around with it and already, Oh I missed that firmer and Oh no, I can't, I've area is annoying me cause it's sat wrong. You know, all those little things, you should be able to be a machine when you go onto that launch. Uh, you should have everything ready, everything prepared so you know, your flight, your kit, everything. And so you've done all your research. So all you have to think about now is the beauty of thermally and doing the distance if that's what you want to do. Um, and so yeah, no, all your kit, do your research. And then the third one, but I would say I would say more cause I'm quite playful person. I, I'm not, unless I'm mucking around or playing with mates, uh, I'm not very stimulated so I could get to hell and float around and start getting bored after 40 minutes. But if someone said, I bet you can't get to that Hill over there, then that's it. Game on. I'm off. Uh, cause there's a challenge that, uh, and it's a bit conferring with your friends, I think. Yeah. Again, yeah. Play.
Speaker 2 (00:38:18):
Yeah, I like it. I like that jockey. I posted a thing when we scheduled this a yesterday on Facebook. Uh, just a, if anybody had any questions for you and a few people reply that I wanted to run by you, that these are, you know, quick questions, but they don't have to be answered quick. You could take as long as you want. Um, reserves. Uh, should people be flying with two reserves when they're flying Z?
Speaker 4 (00:38:43):
Uh, I don't think, no, I don't think they should. Uh, they don't have to. Uh, uh, one is good enough. Um, I think if you manage the main, then, um, you can use that as a reserve anyway. There's quite often situations where the reserve is actually thrown relatively low. Uh, by the time you get it out or whatever situation you're, you're in. Um, and so I don't think you need to fly with to, uh, I think what I would say is you've got to, you've got to D power your main, uh, but if you do need another, you know, if you thought that you wanted, you wanted to for whichever reason you want to, but one you can use, you just go fingers in the backs and CD lines, pull them straight down and you've got another parachute. Um, the likelihood of you ever going into a wing, uh, and then having to swim out of it and throw another one is very, um, rare. Um, so there's not many scenarios where you would need to, and I've thrown a reserve a couple of times, um, and it didn't work because I threw it badly and I went into the lines. And so people don't know I needed a second one for that. You don't, all you have to do is pull it and it will open. Uh, you, he can put it right in Jalop and re throw it, but it will open, uh, and it will work. So I don't think for cross country flying, I don't think you need to.
Speaker 2 (00:40:17):
Yep. Perfect. Uh, Igor asks, how stressful is your job and how do you deal with the dark side of paragliding?
Speaker 4 (00:40:25):
Um, uh, that's a great question. The, the stressful times, uh, um, they keep you so on your game and it is, it's fancy. I mean, I have to go through, let me see if it's the, perhaps the most stressful is when I'm not in control of the guide that is doing across country. And you know, he's putting himself in a position where he's exposing to risk or something like that. And that's quite stressful for us because, which I, it's our job to, to protect them. And uh, that's when it becomes stressful. Well, you lose communication for whatever reason. That's when it's stressful and as SIV environment, when the stress, when you have to really start thinking, um, then your heart rates going as as well. And so you're thinking a lot faster. And so it's going into your eyes from your brain, out your mouth and into their brain and down to their hands. And so it's all happening quite fast, but for both. So it's, um, and
Speaker 3 (00:41:34):
you can do with it and there's always, um, you know, you can always default throwing reserve if necessary, but you know, one, you want to prove to the pilot that they can take, they got the glider out.
Speaker 4 (00:41:47):
Um, but that's the stressful times. Are you dealing with, do you deal with it by one, learning from it. So straight away you never go in denial if something happened that's really stressful. Think what, what created that stressful environment? Um, so you learn from it and laugh from it, you know, if you can. Um, but I think dealing with the dark side, that is a term that is a tough question. Uh, I think what you do is you just focus on the good. You learn, you learn from the bad, but you focus on the good. And I think we have that in us. You know, if you're an adventure, sports people were exposed to it all the time. And sadly we see friends not come through it. But, um, you know, what you have to do is think they loved it. I love it, you know, and, uh, where else would I be? And, uh, and that's what you say to yourself. Anything I wouldn't be anywhere else. So crack on and a sheriff,
Speaker 2 (00:42:46):
this, this isn't one of the questions that was as, I just have to ask that after your response, or where are you in your own passion for the sport or are you, do you spend a lot of time outside of coaching just flying yourself? Or are you still pretty fired up about, about Perry that he, after all these years? Yeah,
Speaker 3 (00:43:03):
I love it. Um, and it's, I mean, now I've got Josh that I fly with as well, so that's great. And so, you know, I, I've now got, I fly through his eyes as well. And that's the thing about guides, um, is we have to fly for everybody else. So we, our standard sort of, although we can do it ourselves, our standards and goals also go to the level that we're guiding. And so we get huge reward from flying 50 Ks. Uh, but you know, we land at 50 days or with someone who's never done it and they're absolutely stoked. And that's just the same as me flying 200, you know, I get the same buzz out of it and it's the same that parallel you, you take all the way through, you're flying. So I would, if I was to keep wanting more and more and more than I would have given up years ago, it's the, the key is to just enjoy what you do and even if it's a top to bottom and make something good out of it.
Speaker 3 (00:44:06):
And yeah, I try to do all the big, big distance with all the boys. Last year, um, I just couldn't do it. I was too busy. I was just, you know, you have to really, really, uh, devote a lot of time to doing good axes. And looking at the weather and dropping everything and going out and going doing it. And that's something, I mean I take my hat off to them cause you know, I, I just, I suppose I'd love to do it, but I just don't have that hunger. If I turned and I got that hunger, then I'd have to be dropping a lot of stuff. But I tell you, I'll tell the guys that do fantastic. You know how Mike just does it is just astounding. I mean it's great. It's great, you know, listening to your stories and following you and the guys doing all the, all the guys in these mega flights, not just excerpts but you know, you see on Facebook and you know the joy that people have when they, they've landed and the sharing instantaneously and you're looking at it thinking that's phenomenal. How did they do that? You know? And it's just, it's huge amount of energy that comes from, you know, we're behind anybody that does good things, whether it's their first hour flight or first hundred K or you know, the whole of the excerpts done in a couple of days. It doesn't matter as long as they, they're sharing it and I'm a great time and people are learning from it, then
Speaker 2 (00:45:31):
yeah, absolutely. Jockey. Uh, one of the questions I got, I really liked this one. What kind of pilot in your SIV courses are, I guess in your, in your XC courses as well, are you least worried about and are you most worried about?
Speaker 3 (00:45:49):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (00:45:50):
The list is pilots that have come from another field where they have a natural skill. So whether it be a climate has got the same philosophy or another, a pilot from a different discipline, you know, you, you know that there are certain people that have got it that that can take information on, um, and act on it. And so you get a quite natural pilot. Um, and whether they, the, they, they've done a lot of hours at a time or not that they, they've got it, uh, because they take, they've got the right approach to it. Um, and then you've got the people that don't, that have got that, they're doing it, you know, that sense of, you know, what actually is going on and what is actually really going on are two very different things. And when you get pilots that aren't prepared to learn, uh, they're the ones that will have a sticky time. So, so you,
Speaker 3 (00:46:55):
it's those ones that you're most wary of. But the, the, and you know, it's not just young pilots that are very good and easy to teach, um, but, uh, generally, generally is the younger generation, uh, uh, much quicker and easier to teach them than the older ones. And I think it's when it's when people, uh, trying to be something that they're not. Uh, and I choose the words very carefully because I want everyone to enjoy flying, but, uh, you know, in within a bubble that they're comfortable with. Uh, and so, you know, it's great that people, you know, want to do, uh, maneuvers and get stuck into it, but you don't have to. And, uh, some people sort of kept put themselves into positions where they think, Oh, I should be doing this when, if you don't enjoy it, don't do it. And that's the key.
Speaker 3 (00:47:53):
You know, we get a lot of pilots that, uh, who was it? Oh, his humility, you know, he'd probably an X Z flying, um, great, great pilot and never want to do necessarily equals ever. And then he did one and um, with Fabienne and he had actually eco is fantastic, brilliant. But all that time before that he felt I don't, I don't want to, I don't think I have to. And uh, you don't, and as long as you don't push it, then uh, you'll be all right I suppose. But you're really benefit. Once you do do it, you'll really benefit from it. Um, but it's all a question of you. You can often teach people that, um, I don't want to be there or their hands and arms are doing. Well, they should be. Because if I, it's the same as the person that you see taking off and their bodies are going forwards but their feet are doing little steps because they're trying to say what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:48:54):
I don't run, run, run, run. You go right over their shoulders.
Speaker 3 (00:49:02):
Yeah. That you know they can and that that's anything I know and that's when we gently go back or we, we set smaller tasks that they can achieve bite-size tasks they can achieve and they F they progress in a different pace. But I mean you said you also get these guys coming on a Saturday cause they Hoon through it. They think this is fantastic. Can I try Saturdays? We do this and Oh start from the spin and this is brilliant. And then the other part of the, that I was just going to do a couple of stores.
Speaker 2 (00:49:37):
What is the most important maneuver to have nailed? When you, when you leave one of your courses, what do you want? What's the one that you, you think, Oh I'm really glad they've got that one and is that the same one that people should continue to practice?
Speaker 3 (00:49:54):
It's weird overs. Um, there is the one that they should, they, they, they will never always nail the wing overs in one course. Uh, you know, it's very hard cause it's, there's a lot of things I've got to do. Um, but when you get wing overs, that's the thing, you can really apply to thermal Ling and switching in cause and getting up from, you know, low down, uh, or getting up from in a, in a cliff face with trees and have that confidence to throw the glide around knowing you've got it. Don't worry about it. Uh, that's thing that is people shouldn't take away in practice. Um, yes, they should understand what it feels like to start to spend so they know what it feels like, um, uh, and back off and use that dive to their advantage. You know, you're trying to get into a Thurman and it starts to spin.
Speaker 3 (00:50:44):
You just ease off gently. It dives and wham, you're in the core. So it's, it's using things, um, like that to your advantage and getting stuck in. And that's what Sid does. Fee gives you that confidence to just, Oh, there it is. Use that. I'll have some of that dive and what I mean, um, and I think what they should take away is, is practice the need to practice because he can't just turn up, tick the boxes and go away. It should say to you, bloody hell, there's so much more to this glider that I need to learn and I'm going to go and practice. So, you know, wing overs, not big ones, just smooth ones and symmetric ones. Um, and just throwing the glider around with perfect happiness is
Speaker 2 (00:51:30):
yeah. And, and really good wing overs are not easy. They take a lot of time to get good at good numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Oh no, I'm over my way. What do I do now? Yeah. Jockey. I've just got a couple more here then we'll wrap it up. I really appreciate that. Your time. What, what has changed? Um, we talked about this a little bit in the beginning, but um, what are you teaching differently with the advent of sharp nose, uh, that with, with modern wings? What, what's changed in your world? Uh, you talked about, um, the prevalence of, you know, that it's either, it's easier maybe to get into a locked in spiral if you're on a hotter B these days then than it was before. But take me through a little bit. How have you adjusted things in the last five years in your teaching?
Speaker 3 (00:52:26):
Um, it's, it's more about the piloting really, uh, is getting the devices we can still achieve deflations um, and getting the understanding of the change in weight, uh, accelerating into the turns. Um, but it's more about using the energy and the power to pull it out, uh, in a nice progressive, smooth fluid, um, and being comfortable with a dynamic situation which you diffuse. And that's the key. That's what we were working on. Whether glided the glide is different. Um, and some can be quite dynamic and require quite fast input, but you have to be quick to react and then back off. And I think teaching that is, is very important, especially these days. Um, you know, with high aspect ratio wings, with the power of the deflations, especially in a speed bar deflation where the glider very quickly behind, um, that's when you have to be quick to brake to stop it going too far back, uh, to which would allow it to start to curve that and the tips to come forward so quick on the brakes and back off the brakes and break the dive.
Speaker 3 (00:53:40):
You know, it's all about about that speed. But don't confuse speed with aggression, uh, have that sensitivity. Uh, and it's, it's more of that really, that we try to focus on, you know, it's not binary isn't do that deflation. You have to do this, you have to adapt. And we all have to look at the gliding Whoa, that, that didn't work the same. You know, and you can say to one violet, okay, really pull it and, uh, they don't, and you're gonna go and really pull it and suddenly they do and it won't. It goes to a very dynamic deflation. Um, and they've got to be able to cope with that. So it's all about the briefing and making sure that they're comfortable with a dynamic situation. Um, but new glow, it has new trends. Yeah. It's, it's, again, it's talking to pilots, talking to development teams, saying what works, uh, and seeing yourself, you know, to getting it there is nothing nicer than getting in the glider and playing with it yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:54:41):
Uh, or, or one of us, you know, going out there and having a look, look at it and thinking, Whoa, that's different. And quite often you can, you know, if I see a pattern where something's not really, you know what I'm saying isn't quite working. You'd go up, fly glider, do the maneuver and talk through it as you're doing it. Just like I used to do testing and then you think, Oh shit, I'm saying the wrong thing. You know, it should be more of this or less of that. And so by doing it, you actually understand more about what you need to teach. So you can't, you know, no, no instructor can rest on their laurels and just sit. They've got to be current and follow development and trends and what's going on. Huh? Do you prefer teaching SIV or XC more? Ah, I like change.
Speaker 3 (00:55:31):
So I, I'd hate it if I did SRE all year. I'd give up. But what I do is I love change. So to be doing aside anything, you know what, I'm starting to get bored of it and then ah, I'm going cross country next week. That's fantastic. And then you give that 100% and as soon as you start to think, you know what, I'm done on flying in circles and straight lines, I, you know, I really want to throw the glider on or, or you know, swatch people as they learn how to throw the glide around. Um, and then you sort of changed, suggested you're just starting to think, mm. Counting the days. Now you then change, you go back to your family, have a lovely time, and then you think, great, I've got something new to do. So that's changes as good as arrest, so you have to change it so you can be, yeah, full on X helps and then suddenly can cruise for a few evening soaring and coastal flying with a bit Backroads and then a bit of a change is enough to always be full-on. So yeah, no, exactly. And yeah, that's why I like, that's why I never want to do only one. I'd love a change. Cool.
Speaker 2 (00:56:41):
Jockey. Tell me a story like from your, uh, your comp days. Tell me, tell me, tell me one that you, you don't often get to tell in your courses.
Speaker 3 (00:56:50):
Oh, well hello. A story that you [inaudible]
Speaker 2 (00:56:56):
well, one of the feedbacks I've been getting, you know, when, when I, when I talked to guys that have been around for a long time and then I'll hear from Nate or Matt and you know, the guys that I've looked around, Oh, you should have asked him about that time when they got sucked into a cloud. And you know, cause, but I don't have the history. I don't know it. So I, I want, I want to have give you the opportunity to tell something funny, something that happened to you, right?
Speaker 3 (00:57:18):
Yeah. They were just good or tense or, I like a, I tell you what I love is, is talking to funny. We used to another going to cast on a sauce and that was a worlds, I can't remember when it was 97. I can't remember. Um, and it was such good banter and I hope it is, I'm sure it's still the same, but you know, we'd always get drunk in the evening and, and be out there slightly hung over. But you're sharing the time and you, you're, you're doing the, the, the course and the task and the grading that really made me think, wow, this is, this is just such good fun was being in a, an a gaggle. And it was Chris Muller, a fantastic, fantastic pilot, brilliant spirit. And he worked with his two were telling a joke, um, and in a thermal, and there's a who, how gaggle of pilots it was.
Speaker 3 (00:58:16):
That is the person that he case. There's still loads of people there. And in this gaggle, you know, showering the joke down right down and passing up and you can hear the pilots or what, what does it mean? What's that? And I got all that other column but we didn't have a chance to finish the joke cause we just got to bait so everyone get up to base and [inaudible] we will go on a glide, all serious going to die and you know, staring each other at your sunglasses and then you get to the thing and we are out. We started telling the joke in his eye, we could hear the shouts from Dublin. I'm not close. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You have to wait until everyone gets it. Okay go. What's the joke? Did you know that sort of banter and I think that typifies competition flying. So you know you might be competing with each other around the world but you still want to share it.
Speaker 2 (00:59:12):
I love it. I love it. That is a perfect place to wrap this up Jackie. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it. I hope I get to do more flying with you here in the future. We're going to see you and we're going to be seeing you. This sounds like this June and July. If back in Europe with um, one of my, you know, with Ben, my trainer for the XLS. Yeah. So that'll be a blast. So we'll see you soon. I look forward to seeing it. Sounds good. I'm following your progress. Thanks a lot. We'll do appreciate it. Cheers. Jockey.
Speaker 5 (00:59:54):
[inaudible]
Speaker 1 (00:59:56):
I hope you enjoyed that. That was pretty cool. I was taking notes going through the edit on that one, the last few hours, putting this all together and uh, got pages of dotes. So, uh, I'll write that up in the show notes on the website. You can review that. Uh, as I said, that top of the show hadn't to Alaska soon, so we're won't have too many more of these for you in the next few weeks. But hope to get one out by Bruce Goldsmith and another before I take off, uh, if you've got any questions for me about Alaska or anything else, shoot me an email. I hope you enjoyed the last one, the in between cast where I answered your questions. As always, thank you so much for your generous donations. I really appreciate that. Um, and we've talked to Nick grease at the cloud based foundation and find out how we can route some of that money their way as well as they're doing such great work. Uh, thank you all so much. Appreciate it. See, on the next show, fly safe. Fly far, have fun. Cheers.
