Episode 95- Willi Canell and wrestling with the Risk


Willi Canell will represent the US in the 2019 Red Bull X-Alps, the 5th US athlete in the history of the race to call Sun Valley, Idaho home of the 10 US athletes who have competed. He’ll be lined up with me in Salzburg June 16th in the greatest game on Earth as a rookie. He’s my neighbor, flying partner and consistently surprises me with the way he thinks about this crazy sport we all find so compelling. I invited Willi onto the Mayhem because he recently shared his private journal with me and I found his thoughts and ideas about paragliding, risk, training, fitness, and the ultimate question- why we all do what we do not only fascinating but informative and thought-provoking. I know you’ll find this entire episode the same. We recorded this before we left Sun Valley in early May but it will be released on day 10 of the race so should be interesting to hear his pre-race thoughts and see how it aligns with what’s gone down!


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Show Notes:

  • First aid and XC Kit. 
  • The Nevada big line
  • Willi’s short but fast history of flight
  • Rivers and flying
  • The Sun Valley Phenomenon- 5 of 10 of the US X-Alps athletes in the history of the race have been from Sun Valley
  • Fly the line
  • Why do we do this?
  • The attainment conundrum
  • Red Bull X-Alps- the biggest experiment of my life
  • The chess analogy
  • What is scary about the X-Alps?
  • Flow sports
  • With an empty mind the higher you get
  • How to stay in the air
  • Fear- good fear and bad fear
  • The most important non-flying thing you can do to make you a better pilot


Mentioned in this episode:

Chris Weigel, Rick Heatley, Superfly, Mike Pfau, Chris Santacroce, Maxime Bellemin, Cross Country Magazine, Cody Mittanck, Ben Abruzzo, Rob Curran, Dave Turner


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Episode 95- Willi Canell and wrestling with the Risk

00:00:12 - 00:05:01

Everybody. Welcome to another episode of the cloud base. Mayhem, I am recording this exactly thirty days before the race. But by the time you get this, it's going to be the twenty six so hopefully will be closing on, Monaco, maybe even be there. That'd be ten days after the race for twelve days to get there. Hopefully you're all watching and rudeness on. My guest today is Willie canal thought this would be really cool to record one well before the race. And then release it in. We'll see after goes because we talk a lot about the X Alves, but Willie lives right down the street for me. He's USA team to he only started flying in twenty thirteen. So clearly he's got a real talent for it. He did the x peer last year and just crushed. And then he came in tenth, but he made some really good moves and a blast to watch him do that. And, and then from that result, and then just how fun that was. He, he applied the x Alps and got in. So it's going to be fun. Race with him. He's, he's becoming a really good pilot. And as you'll see in this podcast. He's incredibly analytical a couple months ago he gave me access to his blog. It's kinda like his journal online, that's just private. And I just thought it was terrific. And I thought, man, I gotta get gotta get you on the show. This is really cool. And we, we take a real deep dive into things that are kinda hard to some at least for me to put into words. Like why do we do this? Why do we fly, obviously, there's the fun? And, you know, just the escapism and the impossibility of flight with a little piece of plastic and smile on over your head. So there's all that, but he, he really gets into it. And I think you're going to I know you're going to really enjoy this his perspective on life and, and flying and just how to go through life is super super interesting. So, and I think it'd be really fun to just hear this. As the race is going on and see how it how it lines up with the outlines up with the actual race. His thoughts. I mean, a lot of thoughts are a lot of thoughts. I mean, a lot of emails and, and Texas stuff from folks that listen to really enjoy the episode on Ricki Lee, the Canadian who went in after a mid air spent a very cold night out in snow. And lot of people were pretty surprised with how little gear he had and was they were surprised. I didn't call him out on that. We did talk about, you know, I was kind of, flabbergasted that he didn't have an in reach and even have a spare battery. So we got into it a little bit in the show. But yeah, I totally agree. You know, I've certainly been guilty of not having enough stuff and like some things that were pointed out like lack of good footwear, you know, because he was flying over snow. Well, I mean, yes. And no at the Saint I've never been one of these people who likes to use hiking boots for flying. I think it's actually less safe. And this is just my opinion in their lot of different opinions on this, but. I don't like big hiking, the go up over the ankle, I like to be really nimble and able to move real fast on launch because I think that's often where you know, we get hurt. And so I use tennis shoes. No matter what even if it's freezing. So and you'll see me, that's what I'll be using the x apps. Even when there's all this snow, so, you know pair tennis shoes. Some Gators is as far as I'm ever going to go. But other things for sure, especially if you're if you're flying exc-, no, the one that I know you guys are all sitting here talking about the in reach. But when I heard that he didn't have an N reach. I just I don't even like flying with people that don't have an image just drives me crazy. You know, we had a very good friend of mine the other day, just didn't have his and landed outweigh deep, and we didn't know where he was and got back to the parking lot after a big day in his band. Still there hours later banned, still there. You know, just like we were kind of panicked, like, always he okay? Should we go? We call search rescue should we call nine one one when we do we want again, look around kind of knew the area that he was in, you know, a simple, N reach just we'd know exactly where it was. And we could message. So anyway, that's the number one, but the other thing, too, is, I think it's a really good idea. Chris wiggle reached out as, as did a number of others. And said, hey man, we know I was surprised he didn't have accidents. And so put together a little list when I fly here and some Bali I've got like a light sleeping bag. You know, it's not going to do it in the middle of winter, but certainly keeping more comfortable if you gotta stay the night out. I've always got extra food of always got extra water, not extra water, tablets, or something.

00:05:01 - 00:10:15

But it's also a really good idea to have some kind of kit that fits where you're flying. First aid for stace always have some pretty decent painkillers in it. In case there's trauma. You won't have some dental floss out like some tree, a tree kit, you wanna have knife, depending on the again depending on the terrain like you might want a knife with a little sauce. You can deal with branches or something. What else let's see, you wanna have definitely a flashlight your headlamp, you know, with good batteries. I always take my batteries and reverse. So the button can be pushed Wentz in my kit. You wanna be thinking about your radio? Gotta have a spare battery. Because what if you or if your phone goes down, then those in riches, get pretty hard to, to utilize gonna have cables to power up stuff? You know, maybe if you're maybe if you've got the space, you've got a little solar panel. You know, you can do you can charge your batteries backup trekking poles. You've gotta have depending on where you are maybe your first aid kits got like some snake bite stuff in it. And that was one of the things I learned from Chris, that's a really good idea. Yeah. Lighter, maybe some, you know, like a little bit of lint from your dryer, so you can make a real, easy fire certain to keep more comfortable at night, and also could be used to signal little little tiny Muir could take out of any number of places. But nice little signaling, MIR's, good idea, again with an unreached probably not necessary, but nice to have a little backup. So anyway, be thinking about this stuff. I think you know, this kind of thing has come up a lot on the show. And I'm surprised people are still, you know, when you're flying XI's depending on where you are. You know, there's a good chance you're gonna land out, and it certainly that little bit of peace of mind is worth a few pounds and a little tiny bit of space. So something to think about okay. So back to the x Alps back Willie. You're gonna dig this show. Your Davis talk super fascinating guy lives right down the street for me. I feel real privilege to be able to fly with William but able to watch him. Him kinda come up really quick. And hopefully you're all all of your eyes right now on the x apps, and we're crushing. I hope I hope hope and anyway. Yeah. Joy, this doc, see soon. Willie. Awesome Dahbi on the show man. This is so cool that we can do this live. And I'll get to do this very often. So welcome to the cloud base. Mayhem good to be at the headquarters. Span. But yet, you and I have been training a lot together. Really excited to talk to you about is just cool that my neighbor is, is, is gonna go compete with me here in a few weeks has been really fun. And it's been fun to see your progression. So we're gonna talk a lot, and we're gonna use your your higher. You get kinda personal journal that you've been kind enough to share with me as our kind of guideline. I think people are going to really dig it before we get into that. We're gonna we're gonna start this off talking about our Nevada flight last week, which ozone just pasted all over the place. That was pretty cool. But also wanted to just give the audience quick, you know, your resume version of your paragliding life, because you haven't been out this very long, you're going to compete in the biggest one there is, you know, since the big show, first of all, thanks for having me or Gavin of half of what I've learned in the sport. I feel like from club as ma'am. I'm honored to be here. Yeah. But I. Find two thousand thirteen around this time of the year. So I guess that was ago. Yeah. Well, five and a half or so been flying. Yeah. I talked to Mike foul local pilot year. Appointed me in the right direction down to Superfly, learn to fly the point of the mountain and then came back up to Idaho. And I kind of had a has really busy on the river. That was also. Right. When I was taking the leap to buy the outfitting business, so of a lot of changes happening that time and didn't get to concentrate too much on flying right away. But did a lot of flying on my own alone of salmon actually that first year two that I had my two and, and then I got to spend more time in the summers flying year. Mike falcon kind of my first mentor here, top me a lot. And then finally started to get to do some, some relaxing flights in our beautiful centralized who area and yet, it's kind of been a. Crazy venture ever since it. It's kinda unique in that. You, you know, your job, you're, you're outfitting business in river business on the middle. Fork is like in the meat of our season. So you're the guy that I have to go to every day in the spring because you're so hungry, because, you know, you're going off to the river, and then we have in a conversation, the other day about just like when new people come here, how do we get them up to speed, because it's, it's not the easiest place to learn how to fly places on, especially in the summer, not to put you on the spot.

00:10:15 - 00:15:04

But what do you think it is about your own personality and relationship to risk that allowed you to learn here is it's, it's not it's you know, I wouldn't recommend most people learn here that it's unique kind of personality that can kinda grapple with the strength of conditions that we have. Yeah, I, I don't know. Maybe I took more risk than is advisable in the beginning of. My kind of thermal flying when I was in salmon. And when I was here, kind of learning to fly a lot of times alone, I don't think I did. But it's a tough question. How do we make an area that is kind of notoriously big air accessible? And we also don't really get that many. It's not a consistent place. We don't get flying days every day. So we kinda gotta grab them when they're good. But I don't know for me. It was kind of a blessing in a curse that I couldn't really have every summer day available to fly. When especially when I was learning kind of forced me to go to go to Columbia, and go other places may be sooner reach out to that kind of other world out there paragliding sooner than I would have if I could have flown every day, you know, I two or three years that I was learning to fly, but on the other hand, I know I missed a lot of great flying here. So I'm not sure. But yes far as making the area excessive. Oh, I think people just need to come and stick it out. And there's I mean I could mess for better mentors. There's mazing pilots here to, to teach whatever you need really. So districts spending the time five of ten believe of the US accepts athletes in the history of the race. Have. Argue been from here, but certainly, you know, cut their teeth here if they weren't from here, but, you know, Honda match Nate, of course, was I. Is that place is that people? I think it's people I mean, I think that I think it's deaf. I think we have, you know, launching Baldi using valley is, is has a name for itself, that draws great pilots here. I don't know it to Sun Valley, that those amazing, you know, pilots who you mentioned in the XL into other incredible flying, learn necessarily something here. They wouldn't somewhere else. I think this is just a really beautiful place in draws passionate people. Yeah, I don't know if I mentioned Honda, but I should have used five times in exile. What a lunatic I'm getting up there, too. So we're all lunatics. Let's switch to Nevada. We had a pretty special day, you and I and Cody so team USA went out to Nevada on this big mission. And, and it got it, you got your personal best. You've written very poetic. Beautiful batted in your in your in your blog here. Tell me about that, that day what was special for you? Yeah. The most special vote. So first of all, as usual ended up flying alone for most of the flight as as we do watching you faster guys just head off into the distance. But yeah, it was really special flight kind of throwing myself Nevada few times. And it's always really amazing when it works. I think, you know, one thing I learned after that flight was it so important in this sport to have confidence in putting yourself in the right place at the right time. So that means looking at the forecast, and Cody basically set us up so well for that. I had a little bit of doubt about that launch, but, you know, if you put yourself in the right place at the right time as far as the conditions go, you're kind of using the slight edge to, to set yourself up for success. And that's what happened with that. Flight, the seems like all of the I guess, personal bests not necessarily personal longest but personal best flights that I've had have been you know, some of the easier flights really even though being in the longtime is always easy. Sometimes it's challenging just just to keep going at times. But yeah, I think it was just really, really mazing day, one, one goals, things about that flight from me is, you know, have looked up at the skies in Nevada so many times from the ground and just thought God to be so mazing. What would it be like to fly over this whole area baying on highway fifty looking at looming skies? Finally, getting do it, you know, and watching the town watching Austin Eureka, having ily come inside at the end of that flight was really special.

00:15:05 - 00:20:00

I was blown away by the I mean, I've driven across Nevada for so many times, I forgotten, and I used to live in. Tom lived in Nevada. Bunch of my life. And, you know, every time I drive across cross Nevada. I'm always like Jesus. There's nothing out here. Mean it's just it brings me a lot of hope for our societies. There's nothing out there, but seeing it from that perspective was like, wow, there's really nothing out here. Just mountain hopping all day in there. You know, one point I was I go, my God. There's a there's a bear down there and it was a cow. You know. But that's about it. Cows, scared me more than bears. They like wings too much one who was things about training for these races. Like the helps in the ex peers you put yourself in Grell mentioned, this the other day to like changes your mindset that you stop thinking about God, that's gonna take me six hours to walk out of their land. And you start thinking, I'm got the food unprepared, and that's gonna be really nice walkout when I land down there. And then you end up not landing on there because you have the confidence to go, you need to go. That's that's really powerful. I think I think that yeah, I learned that down in Australia train in for the twenty fifteen race. We were doing flatland telling you, depending on the wind direction, down there, you are sometimes really flying out to a place where, if you Enderle you could really be, there's no shade. And it's like way over a hundred degrees, you know. So it's pretty intense. But if you follow the roads, you're not gonna send it, you have to abandon that stuff. In its. Yeah, there's a real kind of self sufficiency to all that. You, you really have to abandon the roads totally. I think that's just the case in the sport to do. Well, yeah. So tell me about this journal alum. You've been doing it in some ways. I feel like it's really opportune timing. I just did this review for Maxine Belem's book that just came out called performance flying for cross country in this was one of the first things he recommended was that's really geared towards competition flying. But, you know that you, you land and you pull your journal out of your flight deck, and you write it down, and you set throwing your helmet and kicking your stuff getting all pissed off and get drunk that night, you know, journal about it learn from it. And, you know, I think the benefits of journaling have been well, proven at this point. But what was what was the inspiration for you? If you always been a writer, them this is like. It's I've never I never really kept a started started kind of life, not related paragliding journal at the same time that I started this one, I guess, I, I guess it's maybe I don't know three years older. So that I've been kind of writing my notes down. The reason I do it. I think maybe because if I didn't just write some of this stuff down, and get it out of my head than I would never sleep. I'd never be able to relax. Just as a coping mechanism. But I mean yeah, there are some things you know. You know, there's some I like to I like to do my best in trying to get better things that I'm dedicating my time to is probably all kind of lated to this sort of as my life where I'm realizing how fast time slipping by and, and I want to do something about that. But you know, it's also kind of a trip because the I read all this stuff down. Right. Everything I, I can that I think I need to, to be better than kind of realize that you can't really like attached to any of it. If you really want to get better, you know, it's good to make these notes into learn from them, and they do apply in some instances, but really, really to kind of, to be a master anything, you have to sort of know it, and then set it aside kind of no win touch with some of that stuff. And so the having journal helps me do that. Do you do you have any kind of a schedule? When you go back to it or do you describe back to when you need to know? I don't. No, it's mostly go back to occasionally if there's, you know, piece of information in there that I know is relevant to what I what I wanna know in that moment, but all refer to for information. But usually it's, it's just a resource for putting stuff down. Not not taking stuff back out of it. If that makes sense do you, do you credit how you've gotten good really fast in a in not a lot of years. And, and like you said because your your job keeps away from flying for a good portion of our summer. Do do you credit? Some of that, too, is this party. You're kind of is part of your puzzle pieces as part of your success. It probably is I don't know.

00:20:00 - 00:25:05

I don't I have trouble of. Yeah, I guess I can agree that, you know, my learning progression has been exceleron at times compared to other people's, but. But I think that's just I just enjoy. I just enjoy it. And I. I, I don't know how much of this journal is related to, to my, my actual learning progress. But, but some of some of the information there, insures related that might not have answered your question. No, it does. I mean it's when I when I read it I. Because I know you in a flaw in a lot with you. I see a similar tension in the flow. Tension in you that I think many of us do in paragliding you know this kind of this Dino this incredible passion, and desire and got to kick your ass sometimes. And it's this, you know, and I appreciate that, you're you're writing down and trying to take. There's takeaways there. And there's, you know, there's there's moments of clarity, and then there's moments of cloudy, there's definitely moments of cloudy this. We liked cloudy moments like cloudy. Too many. You're saying, but yeah, going. Well, it wasn't really asking question. It was more just I think I think it's really valuable what you're doing here. And I think this is, you know, the takeaway before we even get into it, which were about you takeaways, I think that we as pilots should be doing this. That was that was my when I read this, I was like, oh, how many things have I missed, because I haven't written it down more. You know. Because we I have tried to get a lot better about bombing out in instead of freaking out, just what happened there. What was going on? We had happen to us the other day, you know. So rather than packing up my gear I just sat there for a while. And like, what could I have done differently here? And you know what did I make a mistake was just today day was it, you know what is so? Yeah. A large part of the whole. Large part of this whole writing process in the journal for me is figuring out why we do this. I mean it's really fun. It's the coolest thing I've ever done in my life paragliding being eighteen thousand feet underneath a cloud on paraglider. But basically nothing but it is dangerous. You know, I mean, we're taking risks their lives and I know it's hard to be it's hard to say exactly what that risk reward isn't. It's different for every person in every moment, but kind of wrestling with the with the risk of it all is, is a large part of why I keep these notes. I feel like I'd be lost in that aspect of, of that of the part of the experience without reading some of this down. Yeah. That's to someone ask you the hardest question the whole thing why I don't know. I mean obviously, it's really fun. And that makes it worth it. But yeah, why do something that's that at times could be dangerous? In some, you know, people who respect as skilled pilots to have died doing. It's necessary for some sort of psychological health, I think on to some degree to be doing really fun somewhat extreme stuff for some people. They don't eat paragliding others do. Why is it that some of us do that? I don't know. I have no idea. I might is I have always suspected that more people should be per gliders so much fun. But I'm not sure I haven't haven't really I mean in this in this journal mine, I've kind of thrown a lot of theories. But none of them really like answer that question. Part of the fun is related to the risks the risk that we take. I don't know. I think that being, I think some people need to be a little bit closer in, in touch with death for, for like clarity of. Life and, and that might be some of it. But, you know it's possible, but we're just kind of stupid, and we really liked doing stuff with really fun. And, and don't really calculate that risk reward properly were good at calculating, but we're not doing properly or aware of it. So I'm not sure it's a really hard question. But I think it's one that at least we should at least be. Thinking about and trying to figure out. And if somebody does have an answer for themselves. That's awesome. And I, I don't know if I may I'd do for myself, but I just can't put into words but it's obviously part of what we do.

00:25:05 - 00:30:05

What is cat thinking about you flying in the x peer? And now excerpts she stoked about at all at, I think she's pretty open and honest with her about yachts, their tons dangerous. And I know when I think I believe that I know what I'm taking risks and when I'm not and, you know, taking those risks or one percent of the time, but not, she's, she's really supportive proud of me, and she's done a lot of risky things in her life to her long horseback rides so low crossed west and stuff. Are more risky than our paragliding. But yeah, if you're scared horses as I am then sure. Way more care by do as she's still, she's I get more fear around horses, because they're not predictable, but to her horses or more predictable than flying paraglider dynamic conditions interesting that super thing. Okay, let's just let's just tap on a few of these, they're, they're just terrific, and we're not committing to all of them. But one of the first things you learn was from a friend of ours who taught me as well Christina coachee words to never forget. Yeah, I don't even know if I so he said he said to me once, and it was kind of, I think, after I got my p two and maybe down there for maneuvers, course or something. It was kind of late in my first phase of learning how to paragliding but long before I was close in intermediate, but he said, never you know, always be stoked for us letter. Don't feel like you, you if you're not just fine off a mountain, and I don't remember ensure he said it much more intelligently, than I remember it in open not distorting, your words, Chris, but, you know, basically always be stoked for slaughter. You don't have to have some great flight, you know to, to Mark of a good flight and night, use that sort. Of as a way to check in with myself if I'm even if I'm totally amped for a long cross country day, and all my gears, ready, you know, takes effort to pack, the get every time we go paragliding check in with myself, if I was just going up there for a sweater, I was just gonna go up fly off ball eight landed. The Reverend parking lot and go home, would I be stoked about that today in there, some days where maybe I wouldn't? And I just that doesn't necessarily mean like I wouldn't go flying. But it's the way I, I it's, it's a metric, I used to just kinda check in with myself and where I'm at as far as if I'm bringing it or not, really. If you thought about that in relation to the race in relation to what's coming up because there's like the other day. You're like, yeah, I don't feel it and we all have those days and I believe I hope I've gotten a lot better at listening to that. There's, you know there are times now are just like I'm in the air mud into it. And I was gonna land nice spot. He you know we can't really do that in the race. Are you are you thought about I will that happen? You think or could it in the X peer that never happened? It's kinda like you know, I was just so stoked. I was so stop the whole time. And I did a lot of letters, I was stoked to just be doing the sledders knowing that it wasn't cross country visions, but, you know, I got to go up and fly. You know, it's kinda like all, you know training for a foot race or something, you're not always feeling great in training. But when you get to the race it's different condition. It's different you're not training. There's something different. And so I don't think that's gonna be problem at the exiles. What if anything if you had trouble with in the last nine months? And you and I are on the same, we have the same trainer ban. Brazil shout out to you, you occur for crushing us all the time. But yeah, it's been he's amazing. It's been terrific. And but you and I are very similar program, but what what's been what's been the hardest part of preparing for the x apps. The hardest part was gotten why such an awesome supporter shout to rob current. The hardest part was right. When I found out that I got in, I applied I was like I was one of the plot, if I didn't think there was a chance that they'd accept me, but, but I was shocked for sure. And it took me a little while to process, probably month or so, to process, like what, what have I signed up for knowing that, joy, it I'd be stoked for the training. I'd be stoked to show up and do my best. But I realized that what I was the hardest part for me was kind of grappling with attainment it was a lesson in non-payment, I was kind of orienting to, like, not only is it a thousand kilometers across the Alps? But also, I'm putting some sort of attainment pressure on me on myself so kind of sorting that out and figuring out like my own by teammate you mean results.

00:30:05 - 00:35:01

But yet everything results just kind of. You know, focusing on. Yeah. The competitive aspect rather than the experience like trying to quantitative rather than quality, the X elps yet trying to of yet, basically making the importance of the race these center of the race rather than the experience. And so that was probably hard as part in the beginning figuring out like my own ethos around, like such a huge whatever, but that, you know, I've definitely settled into like mental state in preparatory state that I'm really happy about kind of more non attainment focused and. Honda. He said to me a couple times, like how the XL is just the biggest game in the world. But it's still just a game known. It's, it's so. Yeah. Kind of kind of figuring out what the excerpts actually is for me was was the hardest part heart in the training for sure. I've actually really I don't find it too hard to motivate for the training, the only time it's it's hard to put in. I mean it's so many hours. But the only thing that makes it hard is, is figuring out if I have the time in my schedule in a given week. It's not actually showing up to the to the task. Yeah. I had this interesting into in two thousand fifteen when I first started doing it, I would I would look at these workouts. You know what I very quickly realized like that, it's just like the eggs out, they all they end the you, you just gotta do start. And then it ends doesn't matter. How long the pavement pound goes is just like you know, if you can break it down to the, the just the step than than tell. Very manageable. Okay. So non attainment and what the race means to you. What is what did you come up? Where did you land? What does it mean to you and bring back you said? Said. Well, right from him robs done, some really cool adventures of his own. He was my support in the X Pierre. And he's just got the right attitude. That's a huge part of what he brings to team USA to is. I don't want, call it casual, but when it has to be casual casual I don't wanna call it like you, when, in the X peer is hard. It was hard for me to figure out when I had to go hard. And when I had to tuna back, he's gotten awesome perspective on that. He has a perspective on, like, telling me, yes, you're looking at this in the right way or. No. You're not. And. Yes, I don't know was just helpful. Chatting with him after hearing about getting accepted the excel in after he was so grateful. He was stoked to be up to the task supporter kind of figure out. You know what it means to compete excels, the exile is basically just like the biggest experiment of ever done with my life. It's a big experiment for me. What can I do? And the expend, many of the results are already end because I've been training for months, happier. More seven months. Whatever already, you know what can I do with my body, what can I so for me. It's different 'cause this will be the first time I ever I've ever flown in the else. So I have to keep that in perspective like what that's part of the experience for me like showing up to a totally new environment and seeing what I can do, and that's part of experiment and. Obviously, how much fun can I have how much meant it? It's an experiment mental toughness, which I'm which is again, like very type two fun. But something I'm excited to, to push the envelope on what can I do with my body? I'm in best shape, I've ever been in my life. So, you know, the experiments, working I'm really stoked about about everything that's happening. But yeah, it's just a it's an experiment that I feel Suber fortunate to be allowed to participate in DM any specific goals. Fly monaco. But also, I don't make it Monaco. That's you know, that's always an enormous goal in itself. You know, my, my goals are more like. Make this experiment work. You know, come out of learning something I really wanna learn from these amazing pilots. You know, I mean I how can I take advantage of Kriegel having to launch with me at least once? On the guys, you know, I mean, I'll be I've no doubt that I will be to the top of the guys Berg at the same time as, as Kriegel and some of the best pilots in the world in my opinion, they have to launch with me. What can I do? Michael to make the best out of that moment. You know. You know, see how far I can carry it on.

00:35:02 - 00:40:08

So. Yeah. To learn to another goal for sure. Is just too. Yeah. It's very non attainment Centric for me. It's like my goal is to see if I can know myself better like us myself to the best of my own ability. But, but as far as like you know, placing like or number of kilometers down, the course line, it doesn't make sense to me to set those goals, and if it does make sense. I don't know how. Yeah, I don't I don't think it makes sense. Either is anything scary about it. Yeah. Like losing lift, and not being able to get back in the left when the rest of the people are in the lift. That's scary. Cattle. No. I mean, the hardest part of this whole never for me is related to like leaving work during the busiest time of the year. Which is, you know, obviously not accepts related. I think just being able to be over there, everything involved is going to be really awesome hard challenging, for sure. But. Yeah. Tell me about the three layer theory, paragliding? Okay. This about I'm kind of interested for some reason in figuring out what other sports or experiences in my life are like paragliding, obviously. No other sport is like paragliding sites. Maybe hang gliding. But so my so I've kind of come up with three layer notion of what we are doing up there. And if you kind of zoom all the way out like if you picture these layers like it's a funnel and the top biggest layer, I think, is most like a big game of chess because most of the time, what we're doing the most important things we're doing are making decisions. We're just taking step by step decision making and sometimes you wander into the middle of chess game, it's not like you're playing the game from the beginning. Sometimes you're playing chess game all the way from beginning condition. Stay the same and your. Insane terrain cetera. But really, what we're doing is just looking at a chessboard and making the best move to our ability. The second layer is for me. It's I grew up sailing. Racing dinghies like small boats lasers in four twenties. And I think it's very, very similar to a lot of the scale strategy in small boat racing. A lot of times races the last hour to three hours or so it depends on the conditions, very similar to Compain paragliding. You're making you're going through different conditions especially involving the wind in the Windsor changing your reading weather, and, and basically kinda breaking your those bigger decisions into actually, you know, physically being attached to them. You're, you're still actually moving that chess piece is part of the sport. You know, going into the thermal is an act of thing even after you've decided to do it. And then on the kind of smallest scale level, I think it's a lot like kinda like dynamic sort of flow sports like surfing or downhill skiing, boating, where every moment, we are at speed very fast speeds, obviously compared to other things that people race. But we're at speed. Actively handling are. Craft and you know, it's kind of like. I- surfing's interesting because you're. The wave itself that you're surfing down is also moving, and that's very similar paragliding paragliding. We're were climbing mountains of air. And then descending off the other side except the entire mountain is moving the entire time. You know, so it's, it's very, obviously very active thing. So, yeah, those are kind of that's kind of my mind tire sort of three layer way of wrapping my head around. What paragliding is as a sport compared to my other experiences in life. Why do you think you are drawn to it in twenty thirteen? Something you'd want to do. And how old are you? Are you late twenties? Yeah, I was like mid twenties. Also, I actually totally forgotten about this until like a year or so, independent guiding, but actually took a tandem flight when I was like nineteen or something traveling through South America, and I was blown just doing stuff. And I was in Ecuador and this guy was, you know, I saw signed for paragliding like that sounds cool signed up for it, did it was like God.

00:40:08 - 00:45:01

I've never gonna do that again. That was terrifying. I was just like motion sick, the whole time and like spinning around in circles and like G forces, my like frail, little body. There's like, no I'm good. Never again. I'd had totally forgotten about that, like until a few years into actually learning how to paragliding many years later, but to answer your question I, yeah, I do, remember the moment when I was like I should pair glide, and I was writing the lift on Baldy his coaching ski racing. And at the time that I looked up saw who knows. Maybe you maybe Carell somebody flying off Baldy, and as probably Speedwing guy. I don't even remember I wasn't able to recognize what was what then? And just thinking I could never do that. And then, by the end of the trail of fried, I was like I get to do that. And I and I think it was that day cold, Mike fowl who had I knew from other circumstances in and got the ball rolling. Thank you. You've got this really cool. Got this really cool little this not quote. But it's this entry called the bodies tied only about the body side. Oh, yeah, the body's tide is sort of my. Way of feeling good about the annoying way that particularly in physical training but also very relevant. I think to learning things with our mind the way that we. We accelerate the way that we plateau, the way that we regress the way that we overreach sometimes not as negative consequences. And also the way that we sort of have a inefficient ineffective learning progression. If we can find that rate curve, but the tide is, especially in training for the experts in the helps I've noticed, sometimes I feel like king of the world in I've never lifted more weight, or whatever or never just cruise Baldy twice in felt like king, that I could keep doing it all day, and then other times if you like I'm never even gonna be able to make it up, Baldi, you know, and that's just the nature of training. And that's kind when I just was trying to kind of check in becuase about how that works, because, of course, all of this I've, I've been athlete, I guess most of my life through ski racing some other things. But these this is the first this last couple of years. With the ex peer in running the x Alps is the first time I've really trained for real training. I was what I'd call him for, like, endurance sort of activities. So just kind of grappling, how our bodies react to stress, but it's also it's also I wanna say related to the mind, but that's to kind of distant like the body, the mind, I think, are, are more than just connected. It's popping same time. And we as I learn I noticed that, you know, impera gliding like I know when I especially when I'm learning new things in maybe earlier in my learning progress, I've realized times, I've overreached, and maybe that's caused an increase of fear or doubt, or, or like hyper, taint awareness, which is bad. And, and how that kind of sets you back in there is it, you gotta go slow to go fast. You have to kinda take it easy in, in just notice when you're progressing, and into with your body. Tied not and know that it happens rather than just, you know, just kind of falling prey to it. Do you have like? Mantras or things that you kinda come back to the you've identified either through the journal through flying that you're, you're trying to grapple with fixed before the race. Do you have do you have things like my mantra for the exile? Is it? For everything else to achieve anything. That's that's difficult. It takes baby steps, but for achieving the XL takes baby. Step ups. That's my that's my motto further race. But I don't know about in real life. Yeah. Going deep impersonal here. But my personal mantra which is kinda why titled my partly why titled my, my blog the higher yet, but with an empty mind, the higher, you get because I think particularly paragliding like we tend to just fill our brains with so much information is overwhelming. And most of the time, we have too much in there to concentrate on, you know, I mean, any anybody's paragliders for awhile, just sit down and talk about paragliding for days on end you know, like there's so much in our brains.

00:45:01 - 00:50:09

The big task for me is just kind of stepping that back scaling back and trying to have an empty mind. Just kinda check in with the relevant things when when they're relevant and, and that lets you go higher. What mental training have you done in the last seven months? Will more meditation than I've ever done in my life, which I think is really important. I can't really get too into that explain. Why? Because I don't know why. But it's a cool path end. And I think really good for training. I've noticed I've noticed that, like, just general mindfulness is very helpful for like the long the hardest parts of the physical training, you know, like the long excruciatingly boring road, walks. It's, it's makes it easier to figure out what is excruciating. Why isn't it happening? But yeah, I guess that kind of pertains mostly to the, to the physical training rather than the flight will also the flying. That's pretty Mendel long hikes on the roller does middle's get. Yeah. You know, it's also just general mindfulness. It's so helpful for me because, like I realized for instance going back to that Nevada flight, high believe I could have kept flying. I, I know that when I landed I didn't wanna be on the ground I was obviously super stoked about that flight, but you always wanna keep going further. But also somewhere deep down below what you're aware of at times. At least for me. I think that there's a switch. That's like I don't want to be in the more and being aware of that is the only way to flip that switch back on. You know what I mean? I think that like the mental endurance we have in the air for me. It's like when I hit five or six hours, I have to be very aware of like. What I truly what my nervous system is telling me and power through that. Sometimes ideally, if you found any tricks for that be are or any, you know, like from for me, a big part of it was just food honor. You know, like I feel so okay that you forget, the eat than I'd land and realize I was just out of my head. I was starving four hours ago and just was kept alive by adrenaline. Yeah. Forcing myself to eat just, you know in the air. Also just in life is important. In the air. Well, I don't know. Yes, there's the food and the nutrition part that definitely makes it harder for your nervous system to keep going there to other things that I've tried kind of. Touching in on in, in my own mind. When I'm flying one of those is making fewer decisions I think that we get tired, if we make too many decisions if we're like climbing. Awesome. Thermal on its as going going going in, we're thinking about the next moves. I've actually tried experimenting with, like, not making those decisions just observing because I think we, I think every time we make a decision where using energy and I don't think that we're using energy when we're just observing, there's looking at the sky, every time you go around take a look at the cloud go around again, and take another look at the cloud, and let your mind rest in just, you know, don't exert yourself. Everything's good. You're going up. It's a great thermal. And then when we get to the top, and we have all the data the observations that I need is when I try and make my decision, obviously, in some situations, you have to think more than just the last turn to decide where you're going other times, you hit the thermal in, you know what you're gonna do when you get to the top of thermal, so. Don't think about it. All don't make that decision. Twenty five times in your head just like manically making that decision. I think it makes us tired throughout the day. I mean, the brain burns burns, the most overheat, totally. So I have this problem that my best biggest flights. Obviously many of my best flights have nothing to do with this since like all of ours. You know, we I mean, I had a evening soaring session, that day after we bombed out the other day it was just as magical as any fled I've ever personal Besson personal longest. Right. But my you know my. My memorable big ones. Like the big flight, I didn't twenty fifteen that move me up from, you know, I jumped a lot of people that day, I was totally alone to completely completely my own line. You know my record here all those years ago. Nobody with me. In. I recognize in comps like you just cannot leave the gaggle it. So risky to go do stuff on your own. You got you, you know, it's, but that's a different ballgame. How if you how do you wrestle with that? Because to me, it's, it's almost kind of like wrestling, what the demon is just like when I'm when I'm up there on my on my own.

00:50:09 - 00:55:08

It's so much easier to make less decisions. It's easier to just go just to do it. Get in the flow. But, you know, even when you are flying day, I'm second guessing everything. I'm doing he's on a better line. I'm not climbing as well. I'm here. Why did I go here? He went over there. I wanna I should be over there. You know, it's it you start just like it's harder to go with your own intuition. You have thoughts about intrusion. I guess dancer question there are kinda two things that come to mind, one, I consider myself a complete comp newbie. So I don't know the best way to Bali. Balance? You know, just staying right on the guy. That's next to you in the, you know, the ten other pilots, next to in the gaggle or taking your own line, taking those risks obviously some sport of risk is, is necessary to. Achieve that feeling of personal best nece accomplishment, but t answer question the way, I wrestle with that is I try and take the middle way. Just like be aware of. Yes. Part of me is telling me to go. On this line. And obviously, the conservative move is to stay with these ten other pilots who are on this line. I don't have an answer though as far as making that decision. I think. When I'm in that situation, I try and think about task relevance, like, what are things, what is the data that I have is relevant to the task at hand and the task at hand in the situation, you're describing is be further ahead than other people in an hour. And, you know, intuitions tricky, because it's so tach to emotion on a lotta times of motion is not a task relevant piece of data fear. For instance, ambition eagerness like attainment, particularly, I think those are attached to intuition, but in a bad way, and we have to be aware of at least for me, I have to be aware of when those task irrelevant pieces of data are two prominent my decision making compared to things like observing the day like pattern recall from, like previously in that flight as well as previous experience in the air over course my life. Celebrate complicated. Now it's. We you were saying again before we started recording. Like if you have you wrote about this in your journal that what's the quote the crutches of Azam? Jasim. Can you pull that one up? I don't have. I'm not it's not right in front of me, but I do remember it. I just I feel like I just feel like in this extremely complicated sport with so many amazing grandmasters. I'm just kinda hobbling along on the crushes of enthusiasm. That's, that's all I can do. That's great. You had this great experience invite this year. We were down there at the sky, raised together. And you weren't on accomplishing, we're on a. C. C glider. I saw, you know, in your writings, you did you did a ride up every day? There was a lot of this crutches of enthusiasm. You don't like you're riding on on, you know, like, wait a minute. This is awesome. And yet man and my even learning anything, and you're bouncing around TI that's weird the whole like. Anytime you go into paragliding competition. At least for me, it's like there's so much frustration and confusion involved. But that's how we learn through that distance. And I was just really stoked by I don't know. That's all. Just having a good time and flying alone, it would be great if I could have actually slowed down and flown with people who were flying at the end of the day in gaggle much further than I was. But I was also I dunno is weird. I the sky race was a nice environment to just be. Flying solo when I wanted to I was able, one thing really happy about was, I was I used the XY sky race as an environment to test what we were just talking about about going with intuition, you know, just going where, where I felt was right. And just end being totally punished. When that was wrong. As by we'll do to me. Area, but to wreck the, you know, it's, although it wasn't on CCC wing. I that's not my progression right now. I'm not I consider myself. Barely near immediate really in this sport in being on the cassisi wing will at some point I see myself stepping up to two fast two liner. But I was stoked to be on the I d wing of ever flown on and to be happy about it in to figure it out and have a great glide rate.

00:55:10 - 01:00:01

Never exclude continuations that were wrong before a condition changed this Ribe that okay. Yeah, I think about that one lot because I think a mistake I make often is a launch Baldy all or wherever a fly for an hour or two. And then often I feel like after a couple of hours of across country flight, which hopefully is is kinda towards the beginning still along day, things usually change. Like, rarely will conditions day, the same for more than a couple of hours in, you know, just kind of vaguely speaking, or usually after a couple of hours, you have entered into an area, unless you're doing a triangle, that is working differently than where you started in. I tend to at made the mistake in past of collecting all this data in my mind observations in, in learning from the day patterns of the day. And, and there's like velcro into it, and that ending up like using that, as you know, the first hour of the flight as the source for answers of what I need to do in the next part of the flight. So, I guess with that, quote means to me, is things are going to change in almost any cross country paragliding flight don't make the mistake of only using, what you what is work so far in that flight. You have to be nimble nimble that how does someone who has not flown in the Alps. You did the expert last year many hadn't flown in appearance either. So you that must be that, that had had her now. Yeah. But it also had been confidence building. 'cause you did really well there. But how do you how do you prepare when I rewind? And I go back to twenty fifteen that was one of the things I wasn't very stressed about because I'd flown a lot in the Alps, nothing like the European but tell me about that side of the preparation the logistical side. A lot of listeners are, obviously not going to the AXA apps, but a lot of people wanna know what you need to know to go to the Alps in half on. I don't really know. I mean what I've what I'm doing is, you know, essentially. Essentially, to bolster my absolute inexperience in the Alps. I'm just memorizing maps in my own way. And but kind of in zoomed outweigh, you know, looking at regions, rather than like specific areas too much. I know that a huge disadvantage for me will be not knowing the complex winds of the valleys of the apps. That's just there's no way I can take on that task of learning that well enough to make it work, even close. I've given up on that mice strategy is different. It's a little bit more. It's a little bit more zoomed out in just trusting that Robin will be able to figure out and enjoy the process of figuring out what to do when we come to each kind of different complex, areo as far as the flying is concerned. Do you have any asked you about what scares you the most? But I want to go back there. Maybe in a different from a different viewpoint. Maybe maybe this isn't the same because you did the ex Pierce, he kinda no but when I win twenty fifteen like my biggest fear was, I was able to kinda show the physical side, because I had been and he was like, if you do the work, you're gonna be okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna have you prepared for this 'cause I was really worried about that beforehand with my knees in my history, skiing stuff. So my knees were trashed but. I just had no idea like am I going to be eliminated? I or am I gonna be? Yeah. I had no idea does that scare. You. Yes, but not in the not in the form of like I'm getting eliminated Dunton races. Over the fear for me is that I will have missed out on the experience of getting to go further into the Alps in the race environment. You know, that's easy to fix you. Dave her just keep going. Don't stop. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I don't know. Yes. I mean doing poorly is a fear, but not a not a big one. I, I don't have a lot of fears about the X helps I have mostly excitement. You know it's weird. Most of my fears are about leaving. Flake. My business is way.

01:00:01 - 01:05:08

More stressful going to go into the phlegm paraglider for three weeks. Right. In the meat of the solution of the, you know, which is my livelihood is, is far more stressful than anything in the excels. Maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe there are things that I'm not that I'm overlooking about the XL that I should be more concerned about, but I think about it all. I'm going to ask you. We're gonna finish on these I've been doing this, the last couple shows they're called, they're like, well Sam Harris cut. They're not mine, but have tweet him for pilots. They're kinda like rapid fire questions. And but that doesn't mean you have to answering fast were short. You can give story if you want. But I think these are just like to ask you, these fun, the at one piece of advice for someone to succeed, as a pilot, what would it be? Oh, god. That's broad question. I'm assuming you're talking about someone who's just learning. No just General Sead. And of course, successes, do you have independently, but probably focusing on for me based on my experience way that question is focusing on, like knowing how to use your own your own tools, like knowing yourself, figuring out what year weapon is, you know, by weapon I don't mean like just what you're really good at also like you know what makes you enjoy flying because that's you can't absolutely cannot succeed in the sport unless you're joining the progression. So if there's something that's like blocking that, like, fear that you might not even know about, you know, you might just be kind of totally blocking out. It's still inhibiting. You. Looking inside looking inside yourself. That's my answer. This is on my card. Your visit question. But how do you view fear? Oh, I have a very complicated complex wave viewing fear, just because I don't know what it is. Exactly. And so I have a lot of theories about it. But. Particularly related to paragliding I think that there are a number of layers of fear. I think that we so first of all, before you launched there is relevant fear, like we have relevant fear when we look at the forecast and the conditions, and we decide to launch or not to launch that's, that's a helpful fear, like okay if I launch in these conditions I might die, good fear. Almost all of the fear that we experience after that point in the air. I think is pretty irrelevant. And it makes sense that we have it because we're human beings and were strapping our souls, into ultralight, climbing harnesses, tying it with point. Eight millimeter lines to nylon and going to eighteen thousand feet fear that it's just ridiculous. I mean it makes sense, we'd have fear. And so, yes, I. I think I think we have kind of like for me, I've experienced like a umbrella diffused umbrella of a Gora phobia, just like fear of helplessness, and like complete removal, which is also something I enjoy about paragliding, but also there's fear involved there. And I think probably a lot of people experience that like basic human fear of being out on the prairie with the lines. You know, we have the same thing in the air were exposed to conditions that our nervous system for hundreds of thousands of years. If you believe in that kind of thing like science is saying. You're gonna die, you know, you're gonna get eaten by a lion. If you don't find a tree, so we have to deal with that. And I think we're super exposed to it when we're flying. Even though we don't know it. I have kind of tried to be aware of that in my mind that I can set it, aside, like usually usually championing fear is just about for me like recognizing it and being like oh, that's what it out. Let's fear instead of just like experiencing the byproducts of it. The other kind of aspects of fear from me in the air because paragliding can't get quite intense two times and. You know, it's very active like we're being. You know, if you if you go to kid and you start shaking them, they're gonna experience for your. That's basically what we're doing. There is getting tossed around by invisible. Air. It also that physically. Comes into contact with our nervous system. So just being aware of that, like getting rocked around can result in fear, and that's okay. Like. I Don I have never felt like own feeling. I'm feeling fear. I should not be feeling that, you know, you have to just be aware that like, okay. That's what's happening in. It's irrelevant to the decision. I need to make the top of this thermal. And then I also think that there are some kind of like unexplained fears that we have that we hold inside of our body for me, like I notice in my lower back, and my breath is the place where we I hold a lot of fear.

01:05:08 - 01:10:04

And as soon as I can be aware of that, and just like breeze and just like relaxed my lower back. I'm able to release a lot of it. Yes. That's basically my thoughts about fear that I try to think about in the air release just be aware of so that I can put it aside and not having, like take up a bunch of my energy or make the experience unpleasant. Because once you once you're wear of, like, what it is. You're experiencing, usually it's not a problem anymore. It's just the problems like experiencing it not. Being aware of it or experiencing it being aware of it being like no, this isn't happening. I'm not scared. That doesn't help either somebody needs to do a study on your line analogy. You know that we can wander around aimlessly most of the time and not be pounced upon by some critter that forever and ever and ever until pretty recent history would have killed us. That's what kept us alive as our flight or fight fight response. Maybe that's the answer that we're all trying to figure out. Maybe that's why we do this is we don't have anybody trying to kill us all the time. You know, power processes where you're talking a logical. Yeah. Yeah. Needing needing something to, to give us a sense of power. Normally. That would be just staying alive in a hostile environment. We don't have that right now. So we make up these ridiculous things like going two thousand feet than than coming down. You know, and like that does, I think I think that's part of the kind of psychological health part than we started with. Yeah, I agree with you. You talked about meditation. We've talked about your journal, but the, the Mona tap into this a little bit more. What is the most important flying thing? You can do to become a better pilot. Most port nonflying thing, I think is just physical health like eating well and having an trying your hardest to increase your aerobic fitness. It's I've noticed it just, you know, I would never have like thought about that before training for the X peer in exile. But it's so much easier to, to do everything in life. If you just put a little bit of effort into being a little healthier in having and just being able to I mean your brain uses so much energy. If you can just make your body a little bit more efficient. You're gonna have save save that interview for other things, so yeah. Just being healthy. I think it's also under appreciated that being really fit. Makes you a lot more resilient, if you're really fit, and you hit hard that might be, you know, the difference between being paralyzed. Let's take ban as an example, a year ago. He hit the ground really hard and as I was running up to them. I was like, the this might be a corpse and he broke his back pretty badly. But the surgeon said, if he hadn't been so fit he being wheelchair for her. Like, you know, so I think that, that's a big part of it. You know, we're playing a pretty dicey game at times and that you might be you can bounce. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I think we should not get fit to plan on known like being able to survive something that has gone terribly wrong. But I do think that. Yeah. Just being more physically resilient in general. Yeah. Translates over to having more energy, being better having more brain space to make decisions. The beliefs metaphysical impact can affect you. This question's kinda tricky, so take some time you need it. What negative experience in your life? One that you would not want to repeat has most profoundly changed for the better. What negative thing has to be negative. Yeah. What, what bad negative? What something what's an experience that you wouldn't wanna wouldn't want to repeat? But when you look back has had the most good been going kind of deep personal on this whole thing. So I'll just keep that up to an answer. It completely honestly probably my parents getting divorced. When I was, like fifteen allowed me to have a somehow open the door to like enormous amount of autonomy for me would want that to happen, again, mostly for their sake. But yeah. The worst personal to too much of a bummer guy. Sorry. Unfortunately, a lot of people have been through divorce. Okay. Final question this is not related to paragliding if you could solve one thing, what would it be, okay if I could solve one thing in the world, it would be too many problems with the world right now.

01:10:05 - 01:13:43

One thing isn't going to affect anything, so I would just choose to completely accelerate the inevitable downfall of planet earth, and mankind to a point where it can start over again. If you gave me like team if you like two hundred things that I could do. Then maybe I'd start like trying to fix things like, oh, like, stop litter and like you know, like take away the big plastic floating island, but they're just too many. So just yak celebrate the inevitable. Dark, but it ties into our Nevada trims. Willie. That was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Of course, I can't wait to race with you and having adventure in the apps can be so fun. It's just always so fun trailing in flying with you and, and getting your very unique perspectives. Your blogs, terrific. I know that's private. Maybe I can talk into making that public for a little while, while the people, but or. Yeah. But thank you for sharing that with me that was really special and precious. And it makes me wanna turnovers plank you gave him. Appreciate it. If you find the cloud base may have valuable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. You can give us a rating on itunes or Stitcher. Whoever you get your podcast, that goes a long ways to help spread the word you can blog about it on your own website or shared on social media can talk about it on the way to launch with your pilot, friends. I know a lot of interesting conversations happen that way. And of course you can support us financially. This show does take a lot of time lot of editing lot of storage, and music and all kinds of behind the scenes cost. So if you can support financially all ask, for is a buck show. And you can do that through a one time donation through pay pal, or you can set up a subscription service that charges you freak show that comes out and put a new show out every two weeks. So, for example, if you did a buck show and every two weeks, it'd be about twenty five dollars a year so way cheaper than a magazine subscription. And it makes all this possible, I do not wanna fund this show with advertising sponsors. We could asked about that pretty frequently, but a whole bunch of different reasons, which I've said. Many times on the show. I don't wanna do that like to have that stuff at the front of the show an awesome want you to know that these are often conversations with real people, and these are just our opinions, but our opinions or not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars. It's pretty toxic business model. So I hope you dig that you can support us if you go to cloud base, may dot com, you can find the places to support you can do it through patriot dot com for slash cloud-based mayhem, if you wanna recurring subscription, you can also do that directly through the website, tried to make it really easy, and that will give you access to all the bonus material video cast, we do and extra little nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show. But we feel like you should hear you don't put any of that behind paywall you can't afford to support us than just let me know. And I'll set you up with an account. Of course, that'll be lifetime. And hopefully you're being in a position some day to be able to support us. But now find all that on the website all of you who have. Supported us or even joined our newsletter or but cloud-based mayhem merchandise t shirts, hats or anything you should be all set up account should be able to access all that bonus material now. Thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate your support. We'll see on the next show. Thank you.