Episode 181- A walk (and fly) down memory lane with Chrigel Maurer

Chrigel doing his thing

With the 2023 Red Bull X-Alps quickly approaching I thought it would be fun to sit down with Chrigel “The Eagle” Maurer to take a walk back through his 7 winning campaigns. No one in our sport has been and continues to be more dominant than Chrigel. He won his first X-Alps in 2009 and hasn’t lost since (2023 will be his 8th campaign). He’s won everything (many at least 3 times)- Bornes to Fly, X-Pyr, Dolomiti Superfly, EigerTour, Dolomitiman, VercoFly (which he won flying tandem too!), and of course dominated for several years on the world cup, is a test pilot for Advance, heads up the X-Alps Academy and is without rival as the best mountain pilot on Earth. This summer alone Chrigel won the Gruyere Fly, a nail-biter against Maxime Pinot in the X-Pyr, then a few days later won the EigerTour, then the Dolomiti Superfly (another nail-biter against Aaron Durogati) and the Dolomitiman. Enjoy this walk (and fly!) with us down memory lane as we dive into his seven wins. Can he do it again?

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Signing the board at the Titlis turnpoint in 2019. Chrigel was the only athlete to top land and this move sealed his win.

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Speaker 1 (0s): Hi there everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloudbase Mayhem. Got a big one for you today. I was thinking this last week, you know, I need to do A walk down memory lane with some of the ex Alps pilots who have done it many times. You know, these memories fade for the fans and for the athlete and their teams. And wanted to sit down with some of these folks and take us back through the races, kind of their best and worst moments, stuff that probably isn't on live tracking that many of you don't know about.

And me. So the first I sat down with is The Eagle, Chrigel mower. Not much needs to be said in the intro about Chrigel. He is won seven, he's never not won. His first was in 2009. He's preparing right now for his eighth, and he is always the man to be. So please enjoy this wonderful and make you smile, walk down memory lane with Mauer and his seven ex Alps campaigns.

Chrigel, good to see you and welcome back to the show. I had this idea for, for a show With, the X Ops coming up. You're eighth, you've won seven, and my wife said last night, Do you think someone could beat him? And I said, No, I don't think so yet, but I, I thought it'd be really fun to kind of take A walk down memory lane with you, you know, these, these things fade as we go by. You know, it made me think about my first in 2015, but I thought we could, we could go back with you and revisit, you know, maybe a high point and a low point from each of your races.

And if you could, if you could set it up for us a little bit. Cuz even the fans have probably lost some of the memories about what the route was back in 2009 and, and what the weather was like in general. Of course, all the races have, you know, but I know for example, in 2011 the weather was pretty, pretty tough and Toma walked a ton and, and did pretty well. But set it up for us a little bit. Hi again, It's good to see you. And let's just, let's take A walk down memory lane with you, with your ex ops as you head into your eight.

Speaker 2 (2m 26s): Yeah, thank you very much. It's a, it's a great idea. Thinking back, it's always nice because it's already a long time when I start at the adventures in 2009, we was really new in this adventure sport for me. The team sport was new and yeah, then, then we started the Alps for the first time. I remember it was not sure that we can even do one or two days because it was so big and, and I was so unsure how I can walk.

I was sure that they can fly well, but, but to fly well it needs, it's a, needs a good strategy to be on the right place. So it starts really hard and I really made a big mistake at the first day. I lost my mobile phone and all the life tracking was connected, With the mobile phone. So there was no life tracking on my part. And my support Thomas, he was not know exactly where I am. And finally we was really lucky that someone phoned my phone.

He called the number, he was on the top of the list and this was Thomas. So he got an information about my phone and then he was driving back to the phone and he, he catched and everything was good. When I was back With the, with Thomas, I was sending all the, all the live tracking data, so even not needed, the, the backup. So it was very lucky, but it showing us how an adventure works, how it's a difference between a competition and an adventure.

And I think it was the best, the best thing or the best mistake, what can happen to show me this. And it was the first day on 2009 x subs.

Speaker 1 (4m 19s): Yeah, that could be tough. I lost my phone on the second day, the 2017 race, and oh, it was a nightmare for about 30 minutes just wandering around in the bushes, telling my team, please call, just call my phone, call it over and over again.

Speaker 2 (4m 35s): I think finally it was, it was good to continue and to, to make day by day. And we had a good strategy already to, to make the day report and to learn from our mistakes. And finally this gave us always new ideas how we can manage ourself

Speaker 1 (4m 56s): And, and what were, what were you flying wing wise and harness wise then? Because the, we heard that you were really the first one that really pushed the lightweight, you know, before 2009, people were carrying really heavy kit and, and you showed up, I think I have this right, you showed up with, with quite light gear. I'd love to know how light was it and compared to now and and what were you flying?

Speaker 2 (5m 24s): That's right in, in 2003, Khe was the winner and he carried 16 kilo. And then some manufacturer starts to build light lighters when they used the light cloth, but they not have a light construction. So the GLIs come down from six kilo to four and a half maybe. And then in 2008 I was selected and I was test pilot with Advance.

So I was able to, to push the, the, the construction in lightweight and we build a new prototype, which was three and a half kilo, which was very light for this time. And finally the, the construction was light and, and also the clothes. And then in 2011 there was not a big advantage. 2013 there was the new rule to have certified gliders, certified harnesses and it makes the equipment a bit heavier again.

And then with 2015 With, the two liner that was quite heavy for, for this time and the three lineer was down to three kilo already. So in total it means in 2009 it was with eight kilo quite light compared With. The others they had nine and a half to 10 or even more. And in 2015 there was already less than eight kilo With. The With, the certified gliders and my lightest harness was 2013.

There was a special one which was certified but really light, not know so much comfort. But it was working just for the, for the adventure. It lighter was light. And, and I guess that we can come to this, wait, in this years the, there was several manufactured that built very light sliders. Now they have also light harnesses, rescues and good back protection system, which makes the equipment more and less six kilo.

The minimum equipment means the deflate equipment. Also the helmet is 400 gram already the backpack is 400 gram, but six kilowatts quite light.

Speaker 1 (7m 47s): Yeah, that's amazing. And obviously it ended in Monaco then, but did it start on the docks team in, in 2009 or was, were you back at the Mozart pla that Mozart

Speaker 2 (7m 56s): Plots then 2009 there was the first time they start at the motor plots in Southbrook City. Then we went up to GE and then direction south to Botsman this the high mountains in Bertus Garden. And from there it crosses all the Alps to the south, so to chrome plots. And, and this crossing was quite hard because it was still in the snow. So the border was in the snow and I spent half a day walking in the, in the snow.

So it was a hard entry in a competition and it was the last edition, which was without the night break. So we, we had to, to walk or we was able to walk all the night without sleeping. And for me it was sure that I have to sleep at minimum. We said four hours and most of the days it was more than four hours, but I slept every night compared to the others. There was some athletes that was not sleeping so much and that was really on the edge after some days.


Speaker 1 (9m 8s): Was that, was that rule change a suggestion that came from, from you and others after that race? Or was that something they were contemplating anyway that, you know, the go on, they didn't have the night pass back then you could just go for Yeah,

Speaker 2 (9m 21s): There was, in analyzing the, the organization saw that we was a leader after nine days, With the most of, of rest time. And then they realized that it's more fast when the athletes can rest or the team can rest and to have more safety. They, they bring this rule to, to stop to sleep. And in 2013 there was even more rest time up to five and a half hour. And 2015 there was the first edition With the Night pass.

Speaker 1 (9m 53s): Yeah, I got my, I got two night passes on that one With the prologue. And I learned, I learned that that ne not isn't necessarily a good thing.

Speaker 2 (10m 3s): It's a hard position to choose it and then to, to make the best with and not to push too much to be damaged.

Speaker 1 (10m 12s): Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we pushed too much in a rainstorm. The, the first night pass, it was, it, it slaughtered me. It was a terrible decision. But, okay, so you lost your phone. What about a really good memory from, from 2009 maybe that actually is a good memory, but do you have something that when you think back on 2009 your first win that was, you know, still, still something that makes you smile? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (10m 39s): For sure There was was good to have this shortcut direction. We, we was directly on the Monte Rosa south face or east face we climbed but 2000 meter up past the glacier. And on the glacier we made this start With the rope, this towing start. And the helicopter was with us filming this start. And for us it was always a good example to speak about teamwork. So I have a Martin guide bring me up to the glacier, pull me in the air because the glacier was flat and then I fly direction, mahorn and continue.

And he had to walk back, walk to down to the car driving all the way above the passes. And this shows really how in this race the teamwork is working. And when we had this experience, we always think about how we can make this or how we can create a situation like this to help each other with different skills. And then it helps us many times in different races.

Speaker 1 (11m 47s): I think you said this on a previous show maybe, or maybe I asked Thomas this actually when we were working together last year, but how did you and Thomas connect for that first time?

Speaker 2 (11m 56s): I met him just seven months before the race because I was looking for a mountain guide. He was in studio, so he was not so free to train and to make good preparation. But finally he was enough motivated to, to work with me to see what's working in the practice. With the athlete from his now how from the studio. And finally it was the best, what what can happen because we start to work quite constantly and seriously.

And then he learned how to, to support and finally he was the only one supporter i, I bring. And he was driving the car all day and he was really on the edge, like me too. But we was managing and for sure it was no social media work, it was not so much fans on the road. So it was so mon so many things less to do in this races compared to now. But we was really, really on the, on the, on the, on the border and, and it was a good experience and we was really learning from each other what we need, how we work, and for sure that we not communicate good enough because communication is always difficult when you are tired, when you're stressed.

And since then I start to learn how to communicate better in difficult situations. And, and he too,

Speaker 1 (13m 28s): I was gonna ask you some, somebody the other day asked me, Hey, does Chrigel ever get angry? Does he ever get upset? You know, you see, you see pilots in world cups and that kind of thing, get really pissed or kick their helmet. Do, do you get angry when you make a bad mistake or is it just part, you know, you let it roll off you pretty

Speaker 2 (13m 47s): Easily? No, I am, I'm really focused on, on on performance. My luck is that I, I do competition since a long time. So I start 2000 and I had really hard time when I was in, in PWC in 2002, 2003. I was really pissed off and, and then made a lot of noise outside. But finally there was a, a time of learning and to understand that para lining sport, it's working differently and that I have to accept things.

And when I start the adventure races, the hike and fly competitions in 2009, I was already old and that was managing me myself quite good. So that helps me to, to look seriously from outside.

Speaker 1 (14m 37s): You mentioned before we started talking that you're, you're right now Thomas is gonna support you again. He'll be I guess your main supporter, but you're, you're trying to find your new team. You've changed your team quite a bit over the years with, with ex peer and Dolomiti and I often see new people that I haven't seen before. Do you think that's important to, or is that more important than just keeping the same core team? Cause I imagine you could have the same, you know, people would love supporting you and would do it over and over again, kind of like Thomas has done, You guys had a big break there for a couple, couple races, but what's your philosophy on putting together your team?

Speaker 2 (15m 18s): Yeah, I, I really tried to keep the supporters, but in an example, Thomas, he's, he start working with his company. He, he was a father in 2015, two killed kids and the time is always the problem. So spending so much time for training and preparation and then for the race, it's not always easy. So, and then there was sometimes it was, or till 2014 or 15 we work together.

And then 2016 he was complaining because of the time then I was start working with Toim and then he grow up and he start to work differently. He was in India and, and traveling a lot. So I looking out for a new team and it was changing like this, but for my philosophy, it's to have people who are motivated to work with me to learn something in this way of adventure and paragliding sport.

And they really like to share them all my experience and they commit me to the competitions and try to do the best and having fun. And 2020 Thomas say, Okay, my family, it's working well, With the company, it's increasing so we can start training for the next Excels again. And so 2021 he was with me again. And for, for the next edition, we, we are looking forward and we need more people because they are so much things to do.

And With the team of three or maybe four With, the other car, it looks for us really working well. So we, we continue like this and now we look for people which is motivated and spending time because the preparation and the three, four weeks competition, it's quite a lot for trust for holiday.

Speaker 1 (17m 24s): Yeah, it's a, no, it's a, it's a huge commitment. Okay. 2011, I know the, the weather was bad, but maybe you can tell us briefly what the, what the route was. I was watching you guys from Scotland in this one. I was sailing up in, in Scotland that summer and that's when I got really interested in it. So I remember this race quite well, but Hansa and Toma, it seemed like it was, it was a lot of ground game in

Speaker 2 (17m 51s): 2011. Yeah, because the route starts heading to the east, first to dine and then back to the west. And it was a, it was a hard entry because there was a strong south wind. It was fun. And I remember there was Zaba With, the boomerang boom eight that was really performing well. And, and in the phone he had really big collapses, but he was managing well. He was first on this first day and then the second day we spent all day on the road together with Paul Gau.

I walked 95 K and on day three was completely destroyed. And then we had to, to cross the main ridge direction in Dolomiti. And then on day four I had to walk again all day. It was horrible weather. And then they five I spend in a small flight, but then I made the big mistake and from outside it looks like a big magic move.

But for me it was hard to realize that I made a mistake. I flew off Meran direction, Martel instead of the Stelvio pass. And I wanted to cross the Stelvio pass and then direction. And instead I was one rally too early in the south and Thomas told me when I was landed, the, I stay in the wrong rally, I had to walk back and say, No, it's not possible.

I want to continue here. So there was a big discussion and I was really frustrated because I realized that I was wrong. I was navigating by paper maps, so there was no gps and like this, we made mistakes and, and finally it was really frustrated. But then after a while we, we found new solution, we found this way to the kasti hu this was a small hu on 3000 meter.

The weather was horrible, it was snowing and foggy and we was able to, to catch the hut before the night because there was the new rest time at 11. And then we was really lucky that the next day was flyable from the hu from 3000. And that was really in a good position because the, the teams in the south was in stable air. The teams stelvio pass in the north was in fern in strong North wind. And that was really in the Midland.

I was able to fly more than 200 K in this day. And I flew all the way to Thema. But then on the way I hit the, the airspace in Digo by one meter, finally it was one meter with three different tracks in four different programs calculating. And the worst was more than 10 meter inside. And the best was one meter, but one meter is one meter too much. And, and that was spending one day there was 24 hour penalty in sema and there was, there was a hard lesson, but, but finally it's the rules and and my luck was that the flight in the day before was so good, so efficient that they could stay in front With the rest day.

And I was able to, to recover from all these hikes we had on the days before. I was really happy, I was really destroyed. And that was, I think it was in the first time in my life really on, on, on sitting down and I was sure I have to stop the race because my, my legs was damaged and with this rest time wow or this, this day off, I was able to, to recover.

I recovered good enough to continue walking on the, on the day in sema and then I was flyable a bit. So it was unbelievable experience to, to realize that even at the point you not see how to continue, somehow you can continue and it can make you to the end.

Speaker 1 (22m 8s): Is that the one where you wrote your name in the track log

Speaker 2 (22m 10s): Finally? Yes, because we was in elite in, in France we was south of the Bonne Pass and the weather was horrible this afternoon, it was my birthday and then we was calculating the chance to finish of the day or the next day and there was the forecast looks good to fly the day after. And, and so I, I decide to stop in the afternoon and we wait there for, for for hours.

We was sleeping in the afternoon there was raining and then we tried the life tracking because the life tracking, it's the the best thing With the Alps, what they do. And finally we was trying the new precision of the new life tracking and it was really good. So we, we walked on the ro on the, on the grass and, and hiked this hello. And you can clearly see at the life tracking that, hello, But it was my birthday and the day after it was flyable and I could finish the race first and it was so, so good experience.

Speaker 1 (23m 22s): We're, we're jumping ahead a little bit here, but I I need to ask, is there, of the seven wins, does does one of them stand out more? Did any of the seven mean more than the others?

Speaker 2 (23m 35s): No, I think the first was really the best because I really want to win and that was, was unsure how it works. The second was, was more in elite, so I was really in a comfortable situation. It was not really a race after. And the third one was, was even better. I I had the big, the biggest advantage ever, almost 300 k and yeah, for me always when I won a competition, the first it was the most importance and after I was, I was like an extra, so it was the same in pwc, the same in Swiss championship and, and so on.

And for me it was always the challenge to win first and then to the afterwards. I, I really enjoyed the competition, but, but the win was, was sometimes not as special as the first one.

Speaker 1 (24m 31s): And I think in 2011, that was when Toma was second.

Speaker 2 (24m 35s): Yeah, yeah, he was running all the rest and he was walking for 85 K in eight hours and more than thousand kilometer at thousand meter uphill. And he, he was arriving running and it was, I was so impressed about him, but the next morning I was together with him in the, in the hotel and he was not able to walk at, at, at the table. It was hard to see this.

Speaker 1 (25m 1s): Oh, is he glutton for punishment? He's back again. Okay. 2013. I also remember this one really well cuz I was starting to think about it at that point. And wow, the weather was amazing. You finished the race in a little over six days, right?

Speaker 2 (25m 18s): About the fast one. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25m 20s): So tell us about that. That was, I remember, I remember the, the first day you guys flying down the pins gal, you were you and Aaron and I think you made it all the way to, to the zoo spits of that day. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (25m 31s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. And finally I was really lucky because I was just crossing the mountains of carve and there was a thunderstorm coming and I was just passing and for Arron it was not able to pass. So I had a bit an advantage already in the, in the second day. And then it was flying really good all day quite far. And, and finally I flew from Soden to Greensville Pass.

That was for me, unbelievable. And then I was already at home, there was a turn point at home that was really emotional because I, I arrived just before the, at noon and there was lot of friends and my family and I really was happy to arrive at home. And then it was really hard to, to leave because everything was perfect. I had a good lead, but I realized the conditions are good and the next was mobile.

And I, I was really unsure how to, to fly there because it was so far now it was, and then mobile and, and then I, I start and I tried to, to fly along the mountains, which I know well, but that it wasn't a flight was so successful. I was not expecting in the evening I was in the south of, of mobile, I was on the wrong side of the, of the big mountain.

Everybody expected I made the big mistake and we had the plan to fly around and going north of the mobile when I was turning around. So finally it was a really good tactic and was a big surprise for, for some of the followers. And for us it was just nice to, to have this scene before and to try and to, to believe that it works. And finally the, the lead was really big.

Speaker 1 (27m 35s): That was where you, you went to Chi Vena and up the backside, I mean the south side and around. Oh, that was amazing to watch. So that was the plan.

Speaker 2 (27m 44s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the,

Speaker 1 (27m 46s): This is when you were really, really cold, right?

Speaker 2 (27m 48s): Yeah, it was, it was horrible. I was flying almost on 4,000, that was minus and I remember I landed on, on zero or 200 meters sea level, there was 36 degrees. So the, the difference between zero or minus one on 4,000 and plus 36 on the ground. It was, it was huge. And I flew all the way south from mobile in this height and I was really freezing all the time. But, but for me, it's normal to freeze because when I push on the ground, my body's recovering and I always having cold, I can wear all the jackets I have, it's not working.

My fingers are cold and so I know how it works. But by moving and shaking hands normally it works well

Speaker 1 (28m 39s): The, the, now I might have my years wrong here, but in 2013, was that, wasn't that also when you took off from the feca and had a really scary flight basically to your house?

Speaker 2 (28m 53s): Yeah, I, I, I had a, a short, a short stop at Feca, but then I, I flew just until Grims passed there is normally strong north wind, the grims wind and then I rest on the pass for two or three hours until the wind it's degrees to fly to the north. And then, and the next day I flew home to interlock. So it was, it was a long flight from Soden to Grimsley pass With the small stop, but for, Huh?

Speaker 1 (29m 28s): And was it, was, was that the one that was really scary? Didn't you have a really scary flight that you, when you landed you were pretty shaken up, you told me. Yeah. Was that 2013?

Speaker 2 (29m 37s): It was this, yes, because at the overall pass before the wind was really strong, Thomas told me, With the message, it's more than 70 on the pass, I was 1000 meter above. So there was not so windy, but I was with strong back wind. And then at full cup pass it was not so much wind, but I saw the wind at Greensville. That's why I landed on the for to, to breeze and to think about what I do and to be sure what I do because I was really pushing all the day.

I was cold. I was, I had not too much to eat, to drink and after, if you see these problems in front, it's stressful for sure. And to land and to think about it's always a good option

Speaker 1 (30m 25s): Is you, as you tick off these X Alps, you're, you're, you're certainly not old, but you're getting older and you're, you know, got kids in the whole thing. Does your, does your approach to risk, is it changing as the years go by? I, I found that after I had my daughter, this, this last one, I don't know that it affected how I flew or my approach, but it was definitely something that was on my mind was just that, you know, this, this last one, we had a lot of fern, we had a lot of wind like we did in 2015.

But also the bad weather, there was, there was a lot of times where I felt like it was, it was just pushing it. Yeah. You know, I, I felt fine in the time of doing it, you know, but after the race I thought, geez, that's, that was quite a bit of risk.

Speaker 2 (31m 13s): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I realized that I, I think my best years was 2012 to 1415 and because I was really focused on flying and pushing always in cross country in testing. And then I start to fly less because I spend more time With the family while flying or while competing. I, I really focus on flying and not thinking too much on family, but, but in training I, I think more and more about serious training and risks in training.

So to, to risk less in the training makes sense. But then my experience, my feelings are less in the competition. And then it's very important to not trying new things in the competition, keeping all the experience from the trainings and, and this is a hard border and I know for example, for next year I have to really to train a lot to push my, the limits. But because of co becoming older and smarter, it's really hard.

Speaker 1 (32m 27s): Okay. 2015, this, this would've been your 9 11 30, this your fourth 1, 20 15.

Speaker 2 (32m 35s): Yeah, finally, I, I switched back to Advance. Advance had the first certified competition glider and I was really motivated with this XA one and I was together with Thomas and we made the special move to bring an electric car as a supporter car. So to to to to have the challenge to support by full electric car, this nice race, which I had to walk or to fly.

So we say the strategy is that I go by muscle power, wind power, and Thomas the supporter starts With the electric power. And for us, it was a good challenge or, but also good motivation in the preparation to learn how to manage all these tactic things to, to bring not too much things so that we had lot of compromises, With the small car and finally it was a good focus and motivation to, to see how it works or can it work.

And for sure everybody was smiling. Also, the organization was smiling when we bring the electric car. And four years later we had an electric car too from Audi, the e-tron. So it was an, an official car from the, from the organizer sponsors. And I think we was, we was really fresh in this, in this electric power. But it was a good motivation for, for us and also for our partners and sponsors.

And yeah, finally we start the race with a lot of unknown, with a lot of challenges also on the ground. But we was really lucky that the day starts, or the first day starts really good fly wise. We flew more than 150 K in the first day and was already at the second term point in the evening. Nobody expect. And it was a hard, a good motivation to start a race with this flight.

Speaker 1 (34m 45s): Yeah, that was an amazing day. That was, I, I landed that day down in the, on the river, just this side of the kimsey. I, I think I was in fourth and I was so excited that I dropped my gloves and my earpiece and I ran towards the river cuz I thought, oh, I gotta get to the top and get off with those guys. And I was so excited in a rookie that I, I left a trail of stuff behind me, like your phone ex your phone thing, With, the 2009 race. I learned a lot that day about, okay, wait a minute, slow down, check your stuff.

It's a long race. It doesn't, doesn't all happen today.

Speaker 2 (35m 20s): Yeah, yeah. And finally I was walking with Powell and yeah, it was, it was really nice. There was the first one, he, he went quite north in, in Germany in the flat. And, and there was, for me, there was an unknown area and at this day I made the second day on this race, I made the mistake was pushing too much flying alone. And, and then Paul catched me and or he overpassed me. So it was a good learning. And then I was focusing on my own and, and keeping my own pace and moving more smart.

And, and then it, it continues like this. And, and With the electric car, it was working and finally it was, was was nice. Then crossing from Germany all the way to Italy and to Meran and, and further on to Brenta, it was, was really nice. I was together with Sebastian, whoever a German, he was new in the, he was also rookie this time and he was really pushing hard on the ground. I thought already it's maybe his turn, but finally flying afterwards to Monaco make the change.

He was really face to face until Sie. And on the, on the, on the last day I was making a little difference in the air. But that was, it was a hard race with him. And, and I realized that that new faces coming in.

Speaker 1 (36m 53s): Yeah, it's, I wish we could still see him in the race. He kind of came in and did his thing and that was it. But yeah, that he was strong that year. And then that was also the year late as you and Sebastian were heading to Monaco. Paul made quite a nice move. It looked like it was gonna be a really nice move. He kinda stayed west to the Grano side and had a nice flight. But in the, in the end you guys got him

Speaker 2 (37m 17s): And, and not really remember the last last things, but there was the night pass. The night pass was new, so, and Paul, he, I I use it at the beginning so I not had it anymore. And, and Paul bring it in and he made the good work in the night he could chop catch up the, the first group and, and then he was really in the, on the good position. Then he insert and Sebastian second. So Ed was, it was a really, in the end, it was a really hard race for me.

It was different to 2013 when I was really in elite and I was really happy that I made it. And there was the year, which was I think the most people or most athletes in gold. There was more than, or I think 18.

Speaker 1 (38m 8s): 18 or something. Yeah, it was a lot.

Speaker 2 (38m 10s): Yeah, that was cool.

Speaker 1 (38m 12s): Yeah, that was the first year I think they changed the 48 hour rule. Yeah. The, it used to be 48 hours. And so I remember that being our goal is that I, I have to get in within and we did, we got, and so in the old rules, I think our team would've been the last ones in, but then that year was the, when they changed it to 12 days. And so a lot more got in. That was fun. That's

Speaker 2 (38m 34s): Through it.

Speaker 1 (38m 35s): That was the year I decided I didn't like Monaco very much.

Speaker 2 (38m 40s): Not friendly at all with Monaco emotional. It was nice to arrive at the sea to swim, but, but after it was always a bit hard to, to have this cut from the adventure into the city and it was, yeah, it was was crazy to, to come back in the reality.

Speaker 1 (39m 3s): Yeah, that was very anti-climatic I found just being in the, in the, in the concrete jungle and hot. Oh, so hot

Speaker 2 (39m 10s): Really out there.

Speaker 1 (39m 12s): There were a lot of accidents that year. I don't know if you remember, but Toma had a bad one and Tom de Lado had a bad one. There was quite a few withdrawals. Did you have any, any really borderline situations, any scary situations? With the wind

Speaker 2 (39m 30s): In 15, the problem was the windy days. So there was a lot of windy days. With the phone. I remember when I crossed from the south of Switzerland towards Engadine, there was the, the kova was turn point and there was, the forecast was clearly that it comes fun. There was the day when DOMA landed and he was blowing away with his slider and he crutched his face.

Vichi was With the collapse and the rescue landed in the lake. So he was blowing above the lake after the throwing the reserve and the lake was really cold and there was no boat to rescue him. So he was really, I have lucky to swim myself to, to save himself. And finally I think it was just because of many windy days. But also there was rough conditions. Arron told me with, he had heart collapses cause it was so rough.

And myself, I, I was talked in the, in the wind, in the, in the phone myself, in, in Dino, when I flew from, from the Een Valley crossing by foot to to Chino Valley, I launched with, with easy wind. But when I crossed to the main valley from Qar to Dino, I spent 2000 meter straight away, down without any meters in front.

So it, it was just too windy. It was more than 50 in gust 60 and, and it was not efficient anymore. I spend after all the all evening work walking and was lucky to have no wind that the next day, next day to, to fly, continue to walez. I think there was always hard days because when it's too windy, it's easy. When it's raining, it's easy. When it's flyable, well it's easy.

But the days which are at the border, when it's windy, when it's foggy, when it's raining a little bit, then it's always difficult to have the good decisions. And I think 15 was one of the most difficult years because of this unsure days.

Speaker 1 (41m 58s): Yeah. Do you, are you surprised there's not more accidents?

Speaker 2 (42m 4s): I think With the selection of the athletes, the organization bring a lot of safety in and they are, the athletes are really trained. They also train more hard than for other competitions. Then we bring GLIs, which are a bit easier than the comp wings. The most of the athletes, they fly high aspect of the wing. And in the, in the adventure they've, they fly easier wings. So it helps.

And for sure we are pushing, but we also, yeah know the, the limit from the, from the trainings. So if there is an accident, if there is a problem, pilots normally react even better than others. You can see this clearly in the acro scene. So when they train the tumbles and they fall into the canopy, the most of the cross country pilots, they give up and they, they crash without the rescue and the autopilots, they fall into the canopy and they go out and through reserve.

So they really focused on, on this accidents and they can solve, solve the, the problems often good. And I think it's the same With, the With, the adventure athletes that they, that they know quite good what to do in strange situations. And that's why the, the accidents are not so often or if there is an accident that's, it's more or less good.

Speaker 1 (43m 35s): Okay. 2017, number five. Another breathly. Pretty terrible year for weather. I think just you and Ben wa got in that year, if I'm right and Paul was, Paul was close. Let's hear about 2017.

Speaker 2 (43m 51s): Yeah, for me it was the first addition without Thomas. So top topia steam and Bruno Petroni was with me. So it was a new challenge to learn from each other, how it works. We was, the year before in 16 we was together in Thep race, it was working already well. And I switched to skywalk With, the new glider, which was working very good for this time. I was really happy. Finally the route was, was new, it was even more long as every addition think I was more and more long.

And I, I understood to finish in these 12 days it could be difficult, especially the turn points really in the south. Aldo, we, we heard that it's really stable often and it's windy and not easy to, to cross. And yeah, it makes it really interesting. I was a bit frustrated that it was not more in Switzerland. So we, we managed ma from the south and finally it was heading directly from Mahan to the, to the goal.

So there was no, no normal route over France and it makes a lot of, of new thinkings. Finally, we, we was managing well, there was, there was a, or I was able to fly until Aldo With the nice flight and then back to direction Switzerland crossing the Chino. It was really nice. And then for sure the, the decision on the, the last part to fly direction France or stay in Italy direction to Reno and the flat, it was really difficult.

I expected always to fly to the west following the good mountains. But exactly when I was there, there was a thunderstorm and I was really not efficient on this day. And I had heading back to, to ire Torin and I realized that it could be really difficult With the flat, but it was a new challenge and I made it as always. I, I was taking this decision looking forward makes next step I remember was walking on one day, 113 kilometers was unbelievable.

And I had to walk 75 in this flat until then the next mountain, which was Comme Pass. And yeah, it was, it was completely like a new challenge and like a new adventure and, and for me it makes, makes it even more motivate than, than maybe 2015. And finally we was, was really close and I was able to fly to the, to the beach again. And for me it was so nice feeling to, to fly from far arriving at the evening at the beach, have a swim.

It was, it was so emotional, it was so nice. And I was really an elite. I could see that beys, it's close, but took close to to catch me and I was really starting relaxing and enjoying even before I was in the call and we was inviting directly there in the house. Someone was inviting us and, and we all With the team. My, my mother was arriving father and, and we stayed there in the evening, spent the night in the house and it was so, so nice.

And then the next day was just walking a little bit. But for me it was the, the year which I had the most problem with my niece because the first day at this race we had to walk from Salsburg over the berg all the way to Rin. And this was, for me it was more than 80 k. I remember Tomago was running more than 110 K because the first day was just from 10, 12 to 10.

So it was a short day and he was more than 100 K running. And for me this 85 was already too much and the, the knee was starting hurting and it never recovers well. So I was all race with pain, 10 days painful. And this was for sure for me the, the hardest race ever.

Speaker 1 (48m 29s): Has that been any kind of a problem since your knee? Any, is there any kind of recurring thing or is that just from that overuse of the first day?

Speaker 2 (48m 37s): Yeah, it's because of overload of the first day, because of this 85 k running and, and hiking. The muscle was in With, the strong tension and then it makes the tension on the knee makes it worser the days after and then it starts to, to to be painful. I dunno the name exactly in English, it's

Speaker 1 (49m 1s): Tenitis or

Speaker 2 (49m 2s): Something. Yeah, it's a run knee they say. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (49m 6s): That was the one too. I remember watching you on live tracking, getting blown out of the mountains in that thunderstorm down south. I can't remember the name of that town, south of Brea. And you were going like a hundred and something k an hour and there was airspace right in front of you. We talked about this on another show. But you even going, even flying that fast in what a must have been, pretty scary air. You, you went around the airspace. Yeah, I think I would've just flown right through it.

Speaker 2 (49m 36s): Yeah, this was, this was really strange because I was hiking up, flying down this day, all this all the day. And then at once there was a thunderstorm coming, I was resting for 30 minutes under Iraq afterwards it clears up and it looks quite flyable and I wanted to fly more west into the mountains to, to finish on the, on the good flying mountains. And I took off in, in in nice conditions.

But from the west, the next storm came and when I flew I realized that it starts to be really windy. Then I wanted to go down to have less head wind. I spiraled down for 600 meters and after the 600 I realized that it's even more wind down there. And then it was really good to have this plan B to rest to rescue in the, in the flat. I realized With the airspace it will not be easy or for sure not efficient because I had to fly crossing the direction line or the direct line to the goal.

And, and this was, in this case it was not important anymore. I, I was sure to rescue, to save my life. And then I flew away With the wind and I remember I made a screenshot on my phone, With the speed of 113. And it was not turbulent, it was just windy. And I, I flew away for 17 k in, in in the short time and I landed in the flat, very safe in the sun, no problem.

The storm was not reaching the landing even. But I had to walk for 75 k after. It was very expensive, but for me it was

Speaker 1 (51m 34s): Flight.

Speaker 2 (51m 34s): Yeah. But for me it was the only way to stay safe

Speaker 1 (51m 37s): 2019 yet again longer, but in a lot of ways nice weather. We had no firm that year. I don't remember ever having to even think about a launch. They were all, you just went up and you could launch. They, we had the, we had the kind of tough days in the middle of the race and then we had that crazy sandstorm that came from Africa that, you know, it was over a hundred degrees in shaman. When I went through shaman it was so hot and so stable, which I found very challenging.

But yeah. What, what was, what are your, what are your best and worst memories from 2019?

Speaker 2 (52m 14s): It, it was the year they, they top landed on mobile 60 pilots top landed at 4,800 meter. And they remember Tomako, he flew up to 6,000 meters. It was so hot and the, the terminals was so good. It was unbelievable myself, I was at this good day, I was in the goal, I was in Monaco, it was all also 40 degrees. It was horrible. But I, I watch on the life tracking and I was really interest or impressed to see the heights they, they gave, yeah, For us the race was, was, was good because I was With the new team on the Showin and West who gave me good support.

And we was again, in Switzerland there was the turn point in, in Switzerland was Teethless 3000 meter peak. I was really wondering how I can reach the, the peak. Finally I had a good flight from doubles from turn point in the good route direction, Teethless. And I know the place a little bit, not not that good, but I was able to top land and, and for me it was like Christmas.

It was so nice because the peak is so hard to climb by foot. It's so high. And I, I top landed in the evening I signed, there was a storm coming so I really could stay for more than an hour at, at the top. And there was some friends there and I really spent enjoy and I, I was really relaxed at this time because I, I made it, it was the middle of the race, but I felt like I, I got it and yeah,

Speaker 1 (54m 5s): That was the, that was the winner, that was the game winner for sure. That year at top landing there. Cause that's, that's a big one to climb. And everybody else had to climb and it's a, it's a long way up. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54m 15s): Yeah. This was unbelievable. And, and in the evening I flew down many friends was, was destroying me in the evening and the next morning and then I was really at home crossing by foot, all the, the rallies. It was hard next day because I made 5,400 meter in vertical, just gliding down. It was my, I think it was the, the most I did in Uhub day, but it was at my home place and I know it well, but, but it was not working in Turling cause I had to hike.

It was a really hike and fly day.

Speaker 1 (54m 54s): The now that you're, you're reminding me of something that was pretty remarkable that day you took off from Davos, really low. You just signed the board, walked across, came up a little bit and maybe you and I talked about this, I can't remember, but I thought you had, you kind of knew, okay, if I can make titla, I gotta do it in this amount of time so that you worked it back and tell me if I'm, if I've got this wrong, but you worked it back and decided I have to take, I can't take any more time to get higher or was it just, you just felt like you could get out of there?

Cause it, you took off really low. Yeah, right. You just benched up from low.

Speaker 2 (55m 36s): Yeah, it was, it was really hard decision. The locals says it's not working. I had to go more up. But I know that if I want to do this 100 kilometers to the tip list, With the average speed of 25, it's four hour flying. I have to start now because otherwise it's not working. And it's lot of things working like this in an adventure race that you have to take a bit of a risk.

It's like a poker and then I say, okay, I can try, if it's not working, I have to walk anyway. I spend 15 minutes for trying packing, but if it works I can do tip list. And then I really gain a lot and, and finally it works. And I think it's, it's something which helped me a lot in the, in the past that I really think like this. So trying to, to gain a lot.

And finally I was in a lead of 30 minutes compared to Maxim. And in the evening I was one day ahead and yeah. And this because of this risk and for sure it was a risk. But I also, when I walking up, I got the feeling from the, from the terminals, from the wind. I saw clouds, I saw birds and finally gives me a good feeling. And with this good feeling, I, I tried with With the really bad feeling or if there for example is no wind, I not try and say, okay, let's try now or never.

Yeah. And it needs the experience. It needs a good feeling. And, and then also it needs to try because With the good feeling and to say normally it works like this, but I hike higher, then you not win.

Speaker 1 (57m 27s): Right, right. You gotta gamble when when the gambling's good.

Speaker 2 (57m 30s): Yeah. It needs this consolation of, of a good feeling. But also to, to try and to have the game

Speaker 1 (57m 37s): Before we go to 21. Cuz I know you got a hard out here in about six minutes, so we're trying to move through it. But before you go to 21, any, any real memorable mistakes in 2019 or problems or issues that still stick with you?

Speaker 2 (57m 53s): I think I make many small mistakes or in the beginning I realized, okay, there is, every day I realized that there is many small mistakes I can do better here. I, I can eat better there. But then in analyzing essay, every team do a lot of mistakes every day. So it's typical for an adventure race because of the unknown, because of the stress, because of the team.

Every team have problems and, and do mistakes. And then I think about what I can improve for 21 and together with Thomas, we start to say, let's try to do less mistakes. And this was a really good motivation to say we do something which is not possible to do zero mistakes. We not can do a race without risks. So you have to handle the risks and the mistakes. And finally it gives us a good, good strategy to think about what can be a mistake at the next move, What can be mistakes in the next days?

And to think about reduced mistakes, it help us to, to be more serious with us myself and to reduce the, the mistakes which makes us faster. And in, in general, when I watch back, I'm really proud about, about myself or about the teams I had that we not really make big mistakes. And I also think because of this we was always fast because the others are also fast in running.

The others are fast in flying and with this mistakes they do, maybe they got or they lost a bit the self confidence. And without this they make even more mistakes. And for us we always was able to, to be realistic and to say, okay, we made a mistake, but it's done. Focus on the next step. And with this thinkings we was always able to to be quite good in the end compared to the others.

Speaker 1 (1h 0m 8s): And speaking of compared to the others, we had a tight race much tighter than ever before. Really In 20, in 2021. The same length as 2019, but totally different route. First year we didn't go to Monaco and, and out and back with Mo Blanc, which I know you were thrilled about as I was, that was pretty exciting and really tight until the big move. It's gotta be a famous big move.

Now these days, I think that was day eight, but for me the weather in 2021 was, was pretty terrifying. It had all the wind of 2015, but also just, there were so many times where I would land and within seconds it would just be a day lose. Just incredible downpours and, and really strong fun and some really violent weather for, for much of the race.

Maybe not the first three days, but yeah. Tell me about 2021. Cause from the, from the live tracking, it was, you know, the, the top 10 were pretty tight for a while.

Speaker 2 (1h 1m 24s): Yeah, it already starts at the beginning. At the first day we was really in a windy place. So Maxim and some others there was climbing and I not want to go as close as them and I was not climbing. And finally I lost a bit of a distance. So I was in the back already after some hours. But in, in the evening I manage quite well. So I was quite good in the position for the second day. And the second day I, I dunno why, but I was not able to, to climb.

There was Peno and, and Marcos, they went the erection kids bureau. I really had a delay compare also to Gu power, but also Maxim Pino made a big mistake on this second day. So he had a lot disadvantage. I could shop, flew in a good group and we made themes in, in the evening. I had a nice flight direction west. I had a good advantage.

And then in the next morning, I dunno why, but it was not climbing at my place. I spent one hour on the same hill trying to climb and, and Patrick catch me. Even after, now we're flying. So we was, we was close together at Lemos, but in this evening, this strong wind brings us quite far direction, Alberg. And then the weather changed and I really was impressed how good the conditions was for flying because the forecast was always very bad.

Yeah. And, and they treat, weather was really bad in the morning, but in the evening it was quite good fly week flying and, and we could do this Swiss turn point scientists crossing direction fi and, and finally that was the day, which starts to be really difficult. With the wind, With the rain and clouds and, and I think all the teams was on the limit in these conditions.

I hear a lot of feedbacks about the days when, when pilots was on the limit. But yeah, for sure to just to walk. It's not an option because if the others are fly and, and they do well, then they are much faster. So you always have to think about solutions to fly, but also to, to have enough safety, to have always a good plan B. And for me, I was really not in the flow on this day.

I was always thinking With the forecast, okay, let's do this. And then the rain came earlier or there was bad wind there. I not understood what I do wrong, but, but it's sometimes like this, sometimes it's, it's everything works. And for me it was, the race 2013 was unbelievable because every plan we had was perfect, all the six days. And in 21, the first two days was okay, but then day three, four, and five, it was, was not working as we expect.

And to, to say, okay, it's like this continue focusing, it's really important, but, but we not, or I not understood what I do wrong. And then when I do the, the big flight of day eight, everybody say told me, Wow, you did the magic move how you can, can imagine this weather and, and how you can fly like this and where you got the good information for this.

And I was surprised because for me it was nothing else than the days before. I just focused on the next solutions. I, I chose an option and I tried to do my best and it was nothing else. But on this day it was really working well. So it was, it was for us, it was nice. And finally I analyzed a bit and I was more confident to stay in the north because I know the ieaa a bit better and I expect to start earlier than in the south.

I expect to have more options because I can stay in the north or I can fly to the south if there is better conditions. And I hear it also that, that the French maximum Maxim and Ben where they had forecast that it's good flyable in the south too because of the wind. Maybe it's better in the south. And for the others, for Patrick and Simon, they continue in the south so they not even came to valleys to the north. So for them it makes more sense to stay south.

And this was my luck that that on this Sunday, the, the condition in the south was, was cloudy. It was stable and it was not really flyable. And on my side in the north there was, was a bit windy but, but it was crosswind, it was was good thermals, it was high Cloudbase and With, the strong terminal and the high base. I was able to fly in the end against the wind because the wind, the south wind was kind of fun but there was not a typically fe there was not above 3000.

And I flew above 3000. And in this layer a I was able to fly well against the wind. And yeah, it was a mixed in between choosing a good option but also believe on myself and this option. And then to try and then to be a bit lucky With the weather and that I can manage more than 200 K on this day, which was I think one of my most difficult flight. More than 200 in life.

Yeah. On, on this day. And it makes different, in total this was unbelievable. And we was sitting in the eria in the evening, all the team together and it was a, a really nice and enjoyful evening

Speaker 1 (1h 7m 40s): Does, does anything Was it, was it uncomfortable for you to not be in kind of a commanding position? Cause this was the first race where you'd had other races, like you said, where you were jockeying early, but for the most part you've been out in front and this was really until day eight. Things were pretty tight. Was that different in terms of the, the, the fun that you had with your team or was it, was that, was that challenge quite nice?

Was that, was that something you quite enjoyed?

Speaker 2 (1h 8m 13s): If you just analyze the iops? It was new. If you analyze my, my races, I do since 25 years, it means pwc, it means cross country flights. We always fly like this and, and stay together all the time. So for me it was not new, it was just normal. And sure it was was after seven days, nothing was working well or the other did also really well.

I was thinking about a hard final and then I was, was really happy and relaxed after the day eight. But, but in the end I think it comes closer and closer. Each addition you could see this year in E pier it was close in the Dolomiti Superfly it was really close. So the others, they are really good coming stronger and stronger. With, the teams With the, and so in the past it, it was, it was comfortable, but in the future it will be really hard.

And this, this is one part, I, i stay motivated I think.

Speaker 1 (1h 9m 20s): How old are you now, Chrigel?

Speaker 2 (1h 9m 22s): I'm 40.

Speaker 1 (1h 9m 23s): 40. Okay. Hey, before we sign off, last question, cuz I know a lot of people wanna know this and maybe you've, you've covered this in your presentations, but live tracking kind of went glitchy on us in the xpe and you and Maxine are together the night before RTO made this incredible move. I have that right not rto.

Speaker 2 (1h 9m 44s): Yeah. Remi,

Speaker 1 (1h 9m 46s): Remy. Remy got quite ways ahead of you guys and it looked like you maybe kind had it and then you caught him the next day and you and Maxine were flying together. And then what did you do? How, how did I I we, I heard you top landed there and gained some more height and then you flew over his head. But tell it from your perspective, because live tracking kind of went down and, and was hard to tell what happened there except that suddenly you were in goal and Maxine was walking.

Speaker 2 (1h 10m 14s): Yeah, it was, it was really a interesting race. In the end, the day when Pierre flew passing us, we was too much into the mountains. That was too windy or I not flew because it was, it was too, too much energy and too windy. And then next morning it was really beautiful because we, we also was in the front of the, in, in good windy conditions and at eight already we were soaring up to 3000 and it was, was so nice together with Maxim and then we catch up Pierre.

And together with, with days two, we flew quite efficient because they are the best pilots also in cross country. And we was pushing really good, it was good fun. But then when it got really difficult, the, the lines went tricky and we went, or Maxim, he, he went from us because he was in a better position myself. I was in the middle and Pierre was really low. He was really lucky to not bomb out, but in the end, Maxim was in the, in the wrong way.

So he, he got stuck and we was continue quite good and then we, we came into the inflammation of the sea breeze. So there was stable air and I arrive on a last hill or a last mountain is Congo and I was stuck in inversion and Pierre came to me together, we was trying, and I flew there for one hour and was not climbing at, at the good position. And but above there was clouds.

So I, I expected that it works, but I was not able to land at the west phase because it was too rocky and too to forest and it was not able. So when Maxim arrived one hour later he, he arrived maybe 100 meter higher and it was just enough to climb. And yeah, I was a bit shocked and frustrated and I thought, okay, this, this is over. But then I flew around the mountain and I could land there in a small place and I climbed for 500 meters by food because I, I saw a place where I can launch above.

So I, I reached a place, yeah, it was, it was hard, a hard hour because I realized I, I'm, I'm not in a good position, I have to walk, I have to push. But then I thought when I can fly until the beach, maybe I can pass Maxim and Pierre and I expected less sea breeze as later I arrive and I can can fly more further.

And this was my, my, yeah, my thoughts in this moment and, and this helps me really to focus my own and to go step by step. And it was still more than 60 K when I launched for the last flight. It was very windy conditions. It started to be cloudy, but somehow it works also, Pierre, he landed but he landed more north so he was not in a good position to come into the wind, into the good conditions.

Makes him slower at this time. And yeah, it was, it was really funny because I never checked the live tracking during flying in the races because I focus on my own. But on this time I was really wondering what Maxim do and because everybody watching the live tracking that was killed and it was not working and I, I, I contact my supporter, they don't know at all because they was driving and they not see Maxim and so it was flying in unknown.

But then it was really nice because I was quite close to the ground in the flatland and at once it was climbing and I try to climb with 0 5 0 2 0 8 for 300 meters and then it was finished and they say, okay, at least 300 meters I can save another three kilometers. And then in after two kilometers there was that thermal of two meters and it was climbing so nice in the evening and it was so smooth and it was, it, it already, the first turn felt really good and then I was sure I made it, I can make it.

Wow. And, and there was, there was a really good one that brought me up 1000 meter in the flat and the glide ratio to the goal came down to 13 and I almost made it to, to the goal or to the finish. And, and it was really a nice, a nice experience because, because of the pressure, because of the, of the tactic move I made on the end and because also because and and, and not see on the life tracking what maxim do, I was really unsure.

Whereas they, what and when I landed, I was still three K before the goal and I expected that Pierre came maybe flyaways so he can catch me. And that was really watching to the sky to, to try to see him. I packed my glider, I start walking fast and I say, Okay, let's finish quickly. And when I realized that I in front that I can win, it was, it was so, so a good feeling.

Speaker 1 (1h 16m 2s): It was a cool route this year. Yeah. Okay. I, I lied. One final, final question. Do you have right now in preparing for the X Alps, do you, are any of the other competitors part of your strategy? And what I mean is that, are you marking anyone in particular in terms of how to prepare to beat them, you know, whether that be Ben Wa or Maxim, those that you feel are the biggest threats. Do you change anything because of them, you know, and I know in a World Cup you might have certain pilots that you definitely wanna keep an eye on in terms of where they are and what they're doing.

But is that the same in adventure racing or are you just focused on you?

Speaker 2 (1h 16m 45s): Yeah, what I can see clearly it's that they really have good skills in hiking for sure in flying as well in the team. But I realized that following the leader, it's very much easier than, than staying the lead because leading means you have to think about options, you have to have the decision for a good option and then you have to try and to always to think about it'll work and this needs a lot of energy and power and as soon i, I go in the back, I can just follow the, the leaders because the line is the best and, and this, these are two games I think and, and to, yeah, we analyzed the races when I was in the back and I, I start to to think differently and I realize that leading it's much more work than, than following.

But for sure they, they can, they can With the good follow, they can come close to the end and With the bit of luck they can win for sure because leading is one part and controlling is the other part. And for me, in a World Cup for example, it's the best to control close to the goal and then to, to push or to make a tactic at risk to win the, the, the day. And as closer we come in the adventure race as more and more it goes to this tactic to control until the end and then to risk more to win.

Speaker 1 (1h 18m 24s): Chrigel, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. It's great to have you back on the show and it was wonderful to relive so many of those special moments. Good luck in your preparation, say hi to Thomas. I hope you, you put together a great team and I know we'll all be super excited to watch you this June, but thanks Chrigel,

Speaker 2 (1h 18m 44s): Appreciate it. Cool. Thank you Kevin. Thank you everybody and see you soon at the next race.

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