World Cup Competition pilot (in XC AND Acro) Johanna Hamne had a very big year. She had a daughter, and when she was 8 months pregnant she broke the Nordic FAI record. That’s not a mistype. She was 8 MONTHS pregnant when she flew the biggest triangle in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, or Iceland! You will love this story. But that’s just the start. Johanna is a regular on the World Cup circuit and brings an always-smiling face to our sport. We delve into how risk tolerance changes (or doesn’t) after you have a baby, competing after you’ve had a child, balancing flying with your partner (who also flies), how to process mistakes, flying flatlands and flying in a lot of wind, finding climbs around lakes, training and competing in Acro, jumping out of helicopters, getting currency, balancing life and flying, and a lot more. Johanna articulates about our invisible world incredibly well and we really had fun with this conversation. I hope you do too!
Speaker 1 (0s): Hi there everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem just got back from the Menorca down. Mexico fired up about flying and a great week racing down there as we always do. So that was blast. And I don't have any housekeeping. That's about it. 2022 is off to a good start and hope it is for all of you as well. And I'm really excited to bring you a bunch of great content this year. I've been recording like mad, as I've said on last couple. So at a whole bunch of shows laid out for you the next few months, then I hope you enjoy them.
Today's shows with Johanna Hamne from Sweden, currently living in Finland and she and her significant other both are big racers and they travel a lot and they're, they're both on the World Cup scene. And she had a really exciting year. This last year, she got pregnant and ended up breaking the Nordic FAI record when she was eight months pregnant. So as you can imagine that certainly brought some attention to her on, on the socials.
I both good and bad. And so we talk about that and talk about being in a relationship with somebody else who flies really hard. And Jason really hard. You talk about risk, how risk changes or not when you have a child. And that was pretty interesting to me. So I've just been going through that myself and a lot of other really cool things. I've run into Johanna and lot of places around the world, usually at world cups and stuff and the British, and she's always got a great big warm smile, and she's got a great attitude and I love how she approaches this sport.
And I think you will as well enjoy this talk, Johanna, it's really good to have you on the mayhem. See your smiling face here and talk all things flying and Finland babies, and you you've had a big year and it's been kind of a weird year for everybody, but you've, you've been stomping it so excited to have you on the show. Hi.
Speaker 2 (2m 21s): Hi, excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (2m 25s): Thanks for taking the time that we were. We were just chatting it up before we started recording. And you were telling me about where you are. I had to look it up on, on Google maps. You know, we've all got a little bit of a fascination with Finland after watching Juni. Just send it this year, a that huge record while the two record flights and topped it off with that 500 plus, but what, right. It was 500 plus wasn't at the second one.
Speaker 2 (2m 50s): Well, it's 500 plus. Yeah. And I think many pilots have gotten their eyes up for four Finland, but unfortunately my top piece of weather reliable is Brazil. If you're searching
Speaker 1 (3m 2s): Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So you're done in the Southwest and when I just pulled it up on Google maps, you know, one of the things that I've been impressed with when I've looked at his, when his flight is just the water. Tell me a little bit about feeling you guys are surrounded by water, but then the whole country is tons of lakes and there's a lot of water. I don't understand how
Speaker 2 (3m 22s): Well, I mean, it's pretty much Joelle. It's called the land of the thousand lakes, which is probably a bit of an understatement because there is plenty of them. And I would say that most, most of the flying is probably a good thanks to eat as well, because we have so much contrast. It may be very flat country, but since it's fields and forests and lakes and swamps, we get quite good thermal triggers and possibly that is why. And also of course it's quite, quite safe and nice when it's flat everywhere.
Speaker 1 (3m 55s): Yeah. You don't have turbulence to deal with. I guess
Speaker 2 (3m 59s): There is pretty much nothing. And of course, I mean, valley winds doesn't really exist on a very minor scale and whether it's predictable and since we mainly don't do towing, then it enables you to take off in quite strong wind and just drift with it. So of course that's the main reason why we have this big.
Speaker 1 (4m 24s): And so the it's all flat. How, how far above sea level is feminine? What's the average,
Speaker 2 (4m 30s): I would say the average, maybe around hundred meters above sea level. It is really fun for sure. And if you go way up north, then you have some Hills. Okay. But then you're bordering to Norway.
Speaker 1 (4m 44s): Okay. Okay. And his, it seems like the big ones are north to south, which is kind of the way the country's oriented. You were in the sky with him, but you chose a different launch on the, on the, the 400 day or the other one.
Speaker 2 (4m 58s): Yeah, it was a 400 days. So pretty much the, the north to south flights. Then we have this cold, dry air coming in from Russia, which is really good for thermals. And I had chosen a launch a bit closer to the sea and also a bit further south, but unfortunately it seemed like it had, it had drained quite a bit in that area, which we had not noticed. And we all flew very fast, 50 kilometers and a Yoni flew 400.
And I think pick out all those coast group was also flying 400 landing close to backwards. So definitely the wind speed was there, but the thermals were not really taking you anywhere.
Speaker 1 (5m 42s): What's the season there w when for those listening, who, you know, been watching these big flights go down, when should we show up and bother you guys take us flying.
Speaker 2 (5m 53s): You should, in that case, come visiting in end of may, beginning of June, the thermal season basically starts saying end of April, mid to end of April and around August. And of course it's possibilities every now and again, after that. And before that, but very, very rarely.
Speaker 1 (6m 11s): And how, how tall do you get? And you know, the pictures I've seen in the flying, there's usually pretty good cloud streets. Are you flying blue days too? Or is there just too much water and there's always clouds.
Speaker 2 (6m 21s): Yeah, actually, I mean, for example, my big flight, that was a blue day and a, the blue day. So actually I like them personally. I know plenty of people that does not like dry thermals, but for me, it's, that's a good thing. And I would say we are easily flying 2000, 2,500 meter base. And of course,
Speaker 1 (6m 46s): So you're, you're almost 10,000 feet off the ground. That's pretty good. I guess you sound to work.
Speaker 2 (6m 54s): It does. But then again, it's often you can fly as good cross-country being lower as well. I remember that I have had a flight where I never got more than 1,200 meters or something and I still flew a hundred K. Wow.
Speaker 1 (7m 11s): Wow. And you know, again, I'm just going off pictures. I've never flown there. That, that part of the world I've been to Norway. I was up there for the, the winter Olympics, whenever that was 94 was a dating. Yeah. A little Hummer and tomorrow's beautiful. Gosh, gorgeous up there and a little bit in Sweden, but I've never done any fine. Just, it looks awesome. But the, from the pictures, you know, it's like you said, it's flat so you can handle a lot of wind, but it also doesn't. I mean, is there plenty of places to land?
It looks pretty dense. A lot of water and a lot of forest.
Speaker 2 (7m 46s): Yeah. I mean, definitely these big flights at the Yoni and Peck has been doing in a bit more Eastern side of Finland, then you have more forest, like in this Western area, that's quite do you have to actually search to find a place where it's not lendable there's fields everywhere, which makes us very safe and lies to flow.
Speaker 1 (8m 9s): And you were showing me this, w what are the, what are the sticky parts? What's the, what are the tough parts about flying where you are, as it sounds just idyllic, you were sharing me, you were sharing with me this map that another pilot created called Ava maps. And those of you listening, I'll have this link on the, on the show notes, because this is terrific. It shows all the airspace and no Tams and everything.
Speaker 2 (8m 34s): Yes. It's actually a huge benefit as well, to have this real updated information about everything and not having to search from different sources to know what is not allowed to fly into and so on. And also can contains a lot of different information, like opening hours of the, of the towers and such. And I mean, in general, we are operating from, from air fields, which means that we are flying with deviation radio to be able to communicate with the other traffic.
Speaker 1 (9m 5s): So are you all ham operators? License? Okay. So you carry an Aerobahn radio with you when you fly. Yeah. Is that a, is that a requirement? Is that a regulation flying in Finland?
Speaker 2 (9m 17s): It's not a regulation, but I think it is recommended. And at least, I mean, if you're flying somewhere where there is not other traffic, then of course it's not needed, but if you're operating from an air field, then you have to be able to communicate with the others. Or if you have someone that you're flying with that does have one.
Speaker 1 (9m 34s): I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We should all have, anyway, we should all have our Hamne licenses and be flying with them anyway.
Speaker 2 (9m 40s): Yeah, that's true. But how is it at least in Sweden? I know there's some hiccups regarding it in the regulations that somehow the, how was it? The radio installation have to be approved somehow, which is of course not really possible on a, on a paraglider.
Speaker 1 (9m 56s): Right. And are you talking to the cockpits a lot? Is there a lot of air traffic in Finland? There's a lot of planes flying around and you're, you know, Hey, we're flying just heads up.
Speaker 2 (10m 8s): Yeah. There is quite a bit of a bit of traffic. This, you know, Hoby, aviation traffic, there's plenty of sail planes and gyros and other, just private, small planes. And of course we are communicating with them, but it's most often yard, you just approaching an airfield, informing them that you're in the area. See if someone is there continuing, but it also opens up the possibility to find a flight plan and fly through control airspace if they allow you in.
Speaker 1 (10m 39s): Okay. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, we don't fly with a lot of airspace here, so we're all kind of novices when it comes to that, whenever I'm in the exile. So that's one of my biggest fears and they're, you know, they used to not care unless it was the really serious ones, you know, the CTRs and stuff. And now it's the national parks and, you know, it's gotten really complicated, really complicated to just make a course, you know, a race course that avoids most of it. So I, I feel for the organizers as well as it's just, it's gotten really tricky and it always gets a few athletes.
It always gets a few, but it's good to, it's good that you can fly there and learn it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11m 17s): And of course, especially down on the continent, it's a, it's just so much titrating between the, the big airports as well. So no wonder here, it's a small country. We have quite many ports as well, but they are having quite limited amount of traffic, at least. So plenty of them are, for example, only open in the weeks and in the weekends.
Speaker 1 (11m 37s): So I, in, in our, you know, the previous years I've been doing comps a little longer than you have, but you know, we see each other at comps all the time. And I know you're planning on going down a road in Neo this year. For some reason, I just never connected that you were doing these big flights in the flats of Flint. Do you, do you consider yourself a flatland pilot or a mountain pilot or book?
Speaker 2 (11m 59s): Very good question. Maybe I'm more of a flatland pilot nowadays. Actually I do enjoy it a lot. At least it's very, it's very calm flying there.
Speaker 1 (12m 10s): Yeah. It's nice not to deal with turbulence and Lee and
Speaker 2 (12m 14s): Exactly. It's not that no one, maybe I've realized as well that I'm not as willing nowadays to just be very, very close to the rages and the mountains. So I haven't gotten a, maybe a healthy respect for, for it.
Speaker 1 (12m 31s): Is that because of an incident or is that because of the new little addition to,
Speaker 2 (12m 35s): I think that it's actually the addition to the family more than a, more than an incident.
Speaker 1 (12m 40s): Interesting. Okay. So this is a good segue. You just mentioned your record. You've you've was this the record you had when you were eight months pregnant?
Speaker 2 (12m 50s): Correct.
Speaker 1 (12m 51s): Wicked. Let's talk about that. And that's going to raise some eyebrows here.
Speaker 2 (12m 57s): Well, I was not expecting it either. I can assure you that. So The baby was pretty expected,
Speaker 1 (13m 6s): I guess. It's pretty obvious
Speaker 2 (13m 8s): I had a hunch. Yeah, well, pretty much it was gas. We might be, no, my partner is also a competition pilot, so he had the plan of declaring the Nordic record triangle that day. And I was going to have, I mean, I had pretty much settled that I will not be doing that big flights for the rest of the season because of, well, obviously what was coming and
Speaker 1 (13m 39s): This is your first,
Speaker 2 (13m 41s): First big triangle. Yes.
Speaker 1 (13m 42s): Your first baby.
Speaker 2 (13m 50s): It was a pretty much, well, I mean, flying triangle, it's a perfect day for it. And you're always in quite reachable distance to go back to the airfield anyway, so I can check along. I wanna most likely not, not manage it around, but it's nice to have a plan. So that was pretty much it. And I probably had one of the worst launches of my career. Actually, I, we had 90 degrees side wind because there was a lot of activity on the, on the airfield.
So quite terrible launch. I did lose my winter glove in the launch. So I only have summer gloves, which is a less than optimal in the Nordic spring. So I mean, well, and then let's see, first leg, I was quite slow. Like the first leg always is on a triangle and we ended up low after 30 K about, and it must be a new flying together and he landed and I somehow managed to drag myself up from a hundred meters.
And then I just thought to myself, oh dear God, it's so far to go take us on. It's like, plus 120 K that is written on the instrument, but alone not super motivated. Right
Speaker 1 (15m 19s): There must have been thoughts going through your head. Is this where I should be doing or not? Or,
Speaker 2 (15m 25s): Yeah, it was pretty much like, but it was supposed to be his flight, not mine. I was not supposed to set. This was not quite my plan, but it is a good day. So I wouldn't continue. Let's see. And I mean, the entire chorus line was along roads, super safe flying. I mean, I can land whenever it doesn't matter. So, so I slowly continuous, I reached the first turned point and then finally the conditions really started being like booming.
And unfortunately by then I was on a section of the track that has a roof. So it was flight level 65. So I couldn't top off the thermals either. So that's a bit of a Murphy's law and, and mental wise, it's, you know, every time K's a bit of a celebration and all of a sudden it's not 3d does anymore on the instrument then. Okay. That's a goal in itself. No, such to feel a bit more reachable and somehow it just slowly got myself around.
Yeah. Yeah. No single cloud,
Speaker 1 (16m 35s): Completely blue. There was no cloud. Wow. You like the blue days? Well, that's really interesting. So you said one 60 FAI and that's the Nordic record. Is that not knocking it? That's an awesome FAI, but is that, is it just hard to do triangles in the Nordic countries? Cause they're long and skinny.
Speaker 2 (16m 54s): Yeah, pretty much. And of course it's in Finland is flatland, which means a completely different story. You're not really getting any of the benefits of it. For example, mountain the mountain side to just be soaring of going like a highway or if it's, so it's not possible to fly them, like to fly them in down in the Alps, for example. And not quite sure why it hasn't been flown a big triangle in, in Norway, but they do have quite unstable weather when it's epic.
It's amazing. But quite often they have a lot of wind, so it might be why it's not so easy flying triangles there, at least my theory.
Speaker 1 (17m 35s): And where do you spend most of your time flying? Is it, are you mostly at home year round or are you spending a lot of time on the road and getting hours down the Alps?
Speaker 2 (17m 46s): No, we're plenty at home. And then just going for competitions, that's pretty much how it goes. So I would
Speaker 1 (17m 52s): Say when did you start flying
Speaker 2 (17m 57s): ECC or acro
Speaker 1 (17m 59s): Okay. Agro cops.
Speaker 2 (18m 3s): Yeah. I started, I did my first agro competition in 2014 and I did my first cross-country competition at 16.
Speaker 1 (18m 10s): Oh wow. Were you doing any aggro practice with the little one on board?
Speaker 2 (18m 15s): Not practice, but just, I have, I'm pretty much put the ACRA on the shelf. I'm just flying, you know, goofing around over the airfield, but I can do blindfolded. So, so yes, I did some but not, I don't think a re real acro pilots would call that acro nowadays, like doing soft and knowing overs and some loops and stuff. It's barely in regard to the sacral nowadays.
Speaker 1 (18m 38s): And how old is your little one now? Border girl.
Speaker 2 (18m 41s): It's a girl. She's now turning one and a half.
Speaker 1 (18m 45s): Okay. So if you had her, she'd been tandem flying with you,
Speaker 2 (18m 50s): Not only in the belly,
Speaker 1 (18m 52s): Only in the belly. I love it. We took Fallon on tandem and I, I wasn't the pilot. I was just flying around Todd Weiglan, who's a really good, accurate pilot and really good tandem pilot. And when she was 13 months and, and yeah, and he did a bunch of, and I said, Hey, you got to do with her, what you do with all your normal clients. So I want to see some helies. And so he did a bunch of Haley's and I was flying around her and I took video of the whole thing and I sent it to my mom. So her grandmother and my mom didn't talk to me for a week.
She was so pissed off. She couldn't believe it. And I said, no, it's safer than driving a car. It's fine.
Speaker 2 (19m 30s): Hey, it's nice to hear it. That someone is worse than me. At least
Speaker 1 (19m 35s): I applaud my decision-making, but let's talk about that though. Did you get some funny looks or was this all okay. And in Finnish culture, you know, in our flying community or where people kind of, what are you thinking?
Speaker 2 (19m 51s): I think that the, yes, there was some talk most of behind the back and in flying community-wise mostly, it was positive opinions, especially from, from the females around. I have gotten some I like interesting comments that has maybe been not so not so thought through before they have jumped out of the mouth from the person's delivering them. But, and of course, it's, I can, I can understand them because everyone is having their own background in terms of experience, but I would say they can and should not be doing in general.
And then on top of that, of course, you should not be doing something completely new when you're pregnant, that kind of assist self.
Speaker 1 (20m 40s): Do you feel like it affected anything, you know, from a positive side, you know, do you, do you feel like your little girl is maybe a little more, less risk averse than maybe some babies would be? I don't know. Can you tell any difference that, you know, she came out, it was just a little, you know, crazy person, you know, just loved Heights or whatever. I don't know something different.
Speaker 2 (21m 5s): I dunno. I think she's maybe a bit more like liking things that goes fast and a bit more action things than maybe other others. But I have no idea if it's a related to flying or genetics or whatever is related to your
Speaker 1 (21m 23s): Pilot, is he finished as well?
Speaker 2 (21m 26s): It's finished I'm Swedish by the way. So that's what I thought.
Speaker 1 (21m 29s): Okay. So you, you, you guys met on the comp scene or how did, how did you guys meet and how did how'd that all come together?
Speaker 2 (21m 38s): Well, actually we met, I was in Finland for a work trip and I brought my paragliding gear with me to see if it was possible to fly in Finland. And, and then after that, we kind of started dating after matching each other in Colombia after that.
Speaker 1 (21m 55s): Oh, wow. Okay. And what does he think? What, what does he think about you flying when you're pregnant? Is he supportive as you a little reticent? What, how is that all?
Speaker 2 (22m 5s): No, Dan has been very, very supportive, but then again, that's kind of the thing, because we were all already, you know, quite mature pilots by the time that we met. So I had the acro background hits CrossCountry background, and we have sort of been teaching each other, maybe a bit from the backgrounds that we have. So he started flying a bit of acro after that. And I went into cross country
Speaker 1 (22m 31s): More and more. Interesting. So your, your initial, your initial push was, was acro when you first got into flying.
Speaker 2 (22m 38s): Yeah, I started like I started, you know, like everyone more or less with an SIV and realized, Hey, super farm stolen the glider. I want to do this more. And I think the problematic for me that was that I never properly got the training time in because both combining flying hobby with a career and everything, and I was living in Norway at that point. And it just felt like the weather was not quite there. You got very few flying days in general, the ACRA training never got to a level of where it should be.
And it's all about being like fresh and acro. You need to get the train training time in. So I did the world to that grow most. I just, because it was, I wanted to get more females, so we could actually have a female category in the world's in 16, which we did. So we did. I think that was the only time there has been a female world champion. And I cried because both the other times it has been too few Great fun.
And, but after that, it actually opened this great acro spot in Norway, close to where I was living gondola up 2000 meters straight, you know, straight out over water, but I was the only one there. So I try to motivate myself to train. And I just, at some, like, if you're alone, your motivation runs out, I would say. So I think that's, what's happened with me, but now it's a booming community there.
Speaker 1 (24m 16s): And will you get back into acro or you S you said some, some parts of, let's talk about your risk tolerance now that now that you've had your little girl, what have you noticed that's shifted? If anything,
Speaker 2 (24m 32s): I would say in terms of like the first competition I did after getting her, it was in Slovenia this summer, and I noticed that I'm not as keen on flying very close to the ridges and the mountain sides, for example, but it's definitely possible to still keep up by just choosing slightly different lines, slightly more optimized lines and flying them a bit differently. So it, in the Andrew salt, it does make that big difference, at least in, you know, normal category of two competitions.
Of course, if you have to go to a PWC, then I would say, you're going to be left behind, but on this level is still okay. Otherwise I think I've been quite aware of the risks, my entire flying career, and I'm just not so keen on taking them. I had some injuries in the past and I think it's, it taught me a thing or two. So
Speaker 1 (25m 30s): Some of those are one of those are
Speaker 2 (25m 33s): Yeah. You know, young and stupid. Exactly. No, that was back in 2014. And I managed to spend a, my cross country glider when I was out flying really low. So I ended up doing a quite controlled crash and broke my ankle. But two months on crutches, it still is a lot of time to think and quite frustrating for a person that is normally quite active.
And then the year after in agro competition, then sometimes you're getting this, you know, whole Ted that damn this has gone so well that I feel a bit immutable. And I got that feeling for the, for the landing. And this was because we were supposed to do two rounds this day in the competition. So the run, the landing was on a raft on the ground. As Dale, I thought I would do a spin landing, which I'm not very good at doing.
So I came in about tall. That'd be high up it's fast. And I managed to break my ACL and meniscus on the left. No. Right. So I, so I had those two and it taught me that, you know what being injured, it's not that fun. Let's remember this step back, think about what we're doing.
And it was quite good timing because I was enough pilots to, to know what I was doing. I got actually properly injured enough to remember it. And I haven't gotten an injury,
Speaker 1 (27m 32s): Moderately inexpensive mistake. I would call that one, you know, you need, you need the mistakes to learn, but you pay, you paid enough of a price that it really set in. Okay. Don't do that again. Ding dong.
Speaker 2 (27m 44s): Exactly. So I think, yeah, it was a valuable lesson, definitely a lesson and maybe in the right timing as well. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27m 58s): Tell me about the, your, I don't mean personal side of it, but your relationship. How does that work with flying you both being pilots? Because you know, a lot of the people, I interview a really common theme on the show. And I think just in life with all of us is how to balance this, how to balance what we do with life. Cause it is quite a time suck, you know, chasing, it takes a lot of time and, and money sometime if you're doing a lot of traveling and, but it's, you know, it's, it's quite hard to find for a lot of people.
I think to find the balance certainly is for me, especially with family, how does that work? When you have a partner who flies, does that make it a lot easier? Maybe it makes it harder. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28m 46s): I would say it makes, it does make it a lot easier because you have the same priorities. So it's of course I can imagine. I don't know. Do you have a non-flying partner?
Speaker 1 (28m 57s): Oh, very much. So I've taken her for a tandem and three minutes into the flight. She's looking back at me talking about what are we going to do on Friday night, honey? You're not interested in this whatsoever. Are you? No, I'm not. It doesn't have any interest know. She thinks the red bull XL says, oh, that's kinda nice. You know, it must be interesting for you
Speaker 2 (29m 20s): Interestingly little walk in the park. Yes, no, I think it's making a priority-wise it's making it so much easier. I mean, for an example, we have a pretty much, whenever cross country season is on in Finland, we do not make any other plans. Perfect. Because if the conditions are allowing for flying cross country, then we want to do that. And of course we are sharing the days, but anyway,
Speaker 1 (29m 48s): Yeah. Do one of you fly now and the other one looks after your daughter or do you get a babysitter?
Speaker 2 (29m 54s): No, it's a, we are switching days. So we are just dividing and of course it's may be in the end, slightly less flying. But then again, we are also like committing to going, even the days that may be, is not looking so promising. And it has turned out that most of the times it's actually working better than predicted those days as well. And also trying to try and to help each other if, because we both have quite, quite free work.
So if one has possibility to go flying in the week, then either joining to assist towing, or at least being the caretaker of the kid for that day. Right. So like helping each other. So what would
Speaker 1 (30m 43s): You're cause you're doing the World Cup and the open, the British open, right. And enrolled in
Speaker 2 (30m 48s): At least the British open. I don't know if I'm getting selected for the, for the PWC.
Speaker 1 (30m 54s): Yeah. It's pretty high level this year. Isn't it? I mean, everybody's just dying to go to a comp you know, after this last year
Speaker 2 (30m 59s): And a half. Yes.
Speaker 1 (31m 2s): Very motivated. Well, so, but if, if you do both little one just comes with you guys. How are you going to handle that?
Speaker 2 (31m 10s): Oh no. Am I staying at home? No, he's staying at home. He went to Argentina for the worlds.
Speaker 1 (31m 17s): You guys get the trade off. Okay, cool. That makes sense. And if you, if you had a long break away from your daughter, you know, will this be the first big break you've had? Or was it if you done this before?
Speaker 2 (31m 34s): Well, I did go to Slovenia by myself. So that was about 10 days when she was around one. So that was a long, first long break. And that was like, okay. Both for her. And for me,
Speaker 1 (31m 48s): You're quite casual. Aren't you? I'm trying to MJ. Yeah. It was really dramatic and hard and brutal. I couldn't even talk to her on the phone. Yeah. That's okay. That's fine.
Speaker 2 (31m 58s): That's so bad. She's a pretty chilled out kid as well. So it's, it's kinda nice.
Speaker 1 (32m 5s): So she's happy with that and that's all fine. That's great. Yeah. That's great. Boy, if you had given me Fallon for 10 days when she was, I would have lost my shit. That was, yeah. I mean, I think in total now she's four and a half. She I've maybe had her just me maybe six days total. She needs more.
Speaker 2 (32m 35s): She seems to be quite easygoing kid. So
Speaker 1 (32m 38s): That's great. This is way too personal. But was, was this a planned pregnancy? You, you had this on the map. You guys talked about this or was this whoa. Oh, here we go.
Speaker 2 (32m 50s): It was quite planned. We didn't really have any like big comps coming up that we wanted to go the year after. So
Speaker 1 (33m 0s): Even around the cops, I love it. You guys are awesome. That's fantastic. Okay. We've got a pretty open schedule. Yeah. Okay. Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (33m 10s): Yeah. Then of course, like COVID kind of happened, but that was not really part of the plan. Right. So that's kind of holding things anyways
Speaker 1 (33m 21s): Again, way too personable question, but will you have more kids?
Speaker 2 (33m 24s): Well, let's see. I don't know nothing planned at least.
Speaker 1 (33m 28s): Yeah. Okay. If you don't mind, I'd love to talk about, you said that, you know, some of the kind of comments that came out of people's mouths that maybe weren't really well thought out in advance, you said it seemed the look on your face. Was the troubling more troubling ones came from other females that what was
Speaker 2 (33m 49s): No, no, no. It was, it was not from other females. Okay. We've maybe it did get some comments, but then it was from a normal flying, flying related ones in that case. Yeah. That had some pretty strong opinions regarding it and
Speaker 1 (34m 5s): Oh, because their perception of the danger and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (34m 9s): Exactly. And no, otherwise it just cut some, some minor comments from, from guys actually like, oh, but how can you be flying? And so while being pregnant, like, well, to be honest, I did not get, it ended up being a worst pilot just because being pregnant. But I mean, I did actually, I did step down as well, but that was early in the pregnancy, so.
Speaker 1 (34m 33s): Hm. Hm. Yeah. I mean, you've got more ballast flies, a better.
Speaker 2 (34m 40s): Yeah. But I, yeah, because I had, when I got pregnant, I had pretty much three different competition, gliders and sold one of them. So I stepped down actually to the CNO, which also had like half a size, a higher weight span, which just meant that, I mean, I just had to take less and less ballast along the pregnancy. And then
Speaker 1 (35m 3s): I, you just get on the scale each time when you go quite as much water today, did flying ever did it, you know, when you did the FAI re you know, one 60 that took some hours, was it? Yeah. Wow. Did, did it take any, did you notice any difference, any kind of weird alien world stuff when you, we call that alien? You know, I always think of, you know, really long flights you get on the crown and you feel really strange.
You know, man, I feel like an alien in this, on the, on ground now, was there any, was any different, did you notice any difference between how you normally felt and when you're pregnant?
Speaker 2 (35m 44s): Not really. No. I was actually surprised I had to expect that I would do feel a bit different, but no, it was, it was more of a mental struggle that I wasn't alone. And it was especially the last leg was super, super slow, but because I had gotten like this last leg, I'd gotten a slight, slight tailwind, but it was very late already. So I made the thermals work crazy. So, so the progress was like next to nail.
And when you have already been in the air for about six hours, you're just, you're struggling with the motivation. Right. And still is like, but it's just so reachable by now.
Speaker 1 (36m 28s): It's so
Speaker 2 (36m 29s): Close, but it's just like try to stay in it. And, but I mean, the Thermo's were like, you know, 0.5, one meter per second. So the progress is slow.
Speaker 1 (36m 42s): Hmm. Yeah. Slow going. Where you getting encouraging, you know, where you in radio radio contact with your partner on the ground, was he kind of get it, you know, or were you just where you started?
Speaker 2 (36m 54s): I think he was actually sending me some messages on the phone. Like you're doing great. Just keep on fighting and stuff like that. So it was actually, it was really nice and it was needed as well. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37m 6s): Yeah. Do, do you both help each other out quite a bit with, with fly? I'm wondering, you know, there's always that coaching dynamic between a couple that can be really tough, you know? So if there was a day back in the day when I was kayaking, when I would teach, you know, a girlfriend, how to kayak, it just, it very rarely went very well. It was often better to put them in a school. And, you know, because there's the personal side of things. Do you guys battle with that at all? Or is that something, or do you even do it at all?
Do you coach each other?
Speaker 2 (37m 38s): We do coaching each other. And I think I have the problem like strategically in competitions that I'm the hotel. And I take very, we used to describe my flying style as high risk, low reward, because I tend to be the one getting all the, the, you know, the competition horns growing out. And then I'm just full barring it from the starts way too low. And, you know, in general doing really stupid things in competitions where I have no next sector, whereas I have a partner who is very calm and composed and thinks things through a lot, a lot more so,
Speaker 1 (38m 19s): So he's good. So he, so he, he gives you tips about that and, and it, where it doesn't, you don't take that in. Oh, you know, I don't know. Cause people can eat them. It's not in a bad way. That's good.
Speaker 2 (38m 33s): Yeah. But I know myself well enough that I, I, that I'm doing quite the quite stupid things in competitions that I should not be doing.
Speaker 1 (38m 42s): What do you think if, you know, obviously this hasn't happened, it's hard to imagine something that may never happen, but what if one of you stopped flying for whatever reason you get an accident or you, you get scared or just whatever, it just doesn't have the zing that it once did and you, you don't get, you're not as interested in it. And the other person really is what do you, w w how would that play out, do you think? Or how would you,
Speaker 2 (39m 9s): I think it would still be a, like, quite, it was still work out. I mean, that's pretty much how we are moving, you know, in the, in winter time, for example, when the season, when the season I saw pretty much exactly, we're prayed a bunch, not flying at all from October to, if we're going to Columbia or some winter competition, but in general, we have a quite active lifestyle. So I think that we'll still be the same.
Speaker 1 (39m 40s): How do you tune yourself up for, for something like Rolando when you've had a long break?
Speaker 2 (39m 47s): That's a very good question, because there's always that you are a bit rusty when you're getting there. I mean, it's, it's, Sub-Zero and full of snow here. You have no way to sort of warm up, but it's this mental preparation instead of maybe watching some, or watching some movies and frack logs and that type of thing center trimming the glider. And then having a few days before the camp to kind of get the rest of
Speaker 1 (40m 13s): Arrive a few days before the practice day and get some, get some hours.
Speaker 2 (40m 18s): But I think I, it's kind of inevitable you can't can't really solve it any other way. Fortunately, roll dice. I mean, it's not the strongest place on earth, and you can always escape to the flats and sort of calm down for awhile. So that's, that's, I mean, that's one of the beauties for the place
Speaker 1 (40m 37s): Is very
Speaker 2 (40m 38s): Special. It has everything.
Speaker 1 (40m 40s): Yeah, it is. It is very special. What are your goals this next season?
Speaker 2 (40m 46s): I have my eyes set on the declared European record cross country, but let's see, because that was the one that I was trying to do that, that very fast 50 K day that did not happen. So I would say that that is maybe the, the aim for this year and may be trying to get one more Nordic record would be fun as well, Or the Nordics next year.
It's not, the it's not determined yet will be determined in the next step few weeks, I think.
Speaker 1 (41m 30s): Yeah. I had a blast Macedonia with you guys. So it was, I'd love to keep coming to those.
Speaker 2 (41m 37s): You are welcome to join again. It funny, we had a great, we had a great Nordics in pedal Bernard now is in a, in
Speaker 1 (41m 44s): September. That's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (41m 48s): We have super tasks and like strong conditions high. There was fundraising.
Speaker 1 (41m 55s): I want to dive back in just briefly into the risk side of things. Now that you're, you've got, you've got the little one, the two accidents you mentioned. I wouldn't think either of those had any kind of fear involved with them. They, well, maybe the spin, but I'm wondering if they, if either of those or other ones you've had have ever if ever left to go got a bit of a fear scar. Yeah. And just kind of a may made you fly differently after that.
Speaker 2 (42m 28s): Not really the only one that like sort of event in the air that I've had that has left any permanent. I would say I had a proper cascade where the acro glider in Ella, Denise in 2015. And I think that took some time to recover from cascading. I did not go in though, but I was, there was plenty of the falling involved and the slack lines and shooting here and there, and not being right timed with a glider at any point.
So I think that took some time to recover, but I learned so much from it as well.
Speaker 1 (43m 8s): So it wasn't, I wasn't totally ahead of you. You were, you, you understood, you saw it all, you people talk about that when they're, you know, when it's kind of above their level. I don't know. I don't know what happened, you know, it sounds like, it sounds like you really did.
Speaker 2 (43m 22s): Yeah. I mean, it was still on, it was just, you know, slightly above my level for not handling it correctly, but I understood what was going on, which for that, I mean, in that sense, it was a very good learning experience. I did not enjoy it even a bit at that point, but I mean, afterwards you learn, you learn from it for sure. But with a cross country glider, apart from a port for my crash, I haven't really had any M and a big events, I can't say.
But then again, the acrobatic background is still giving some, I have, of course still gotten, you know, collapses and proper blowouts with a, with a comp later, but it has still been manageable.
Speaker 1 (44m 12s): You're I wonder what would you say advice wise for SIV, for, you know, budding XC pilots, you know, with your acro background, how much is enough? How much should we shoot for what's what's the goal there?
Speaker 2 (44m 31s): That's a very good question. I've been thinking of myself as well. I'm like this going to an SIV with a comp guy, for example, because that's something I have never done. I have done SIV like early in my career. And then after that, well, you get a bit of a free training through various Akron maneuvers. You're trying, trying to learn. So I can't really say, I think it's very valuable and it can also, if you are inexperienced, it can also be scaring people, which is not good either.
So of course it, it depends on at what point you're planning on taking it. And I'm kind of in a world purpose as well. Have you done a SIV on a complied
Speaker 1 (45m 17s): I've I've done. I, I did a lot of stalls on my XRS glider this year. I did a bunch of training in the spring, over the water and, you know, it's a proper two liner, you know, so it's similar, but it's pretty high aspect. I think the, the, the, a climber too is seven. Oh, you know, so it'd be kind of similar to the old ice peak six kind of thing, but I've never done any purposeful SIB on my X one, or that the, my gliders before my CCC gliders, previous to that, I w I was with, I watched Cody do a ton of 'em on his Enzo to just a bunch of acro stalls.
And they're just, they were just gorgeous. And, you know, you're losing 15 feet tops. There's nothing and re really nice. And so, you know, I think it's a good, you know, for me, it's always just been, oh, I don't want to stretch this thing out. I just, you know, this, this is my
Speaker 2 (46m 23s): Life. I
Speaker 1 (46m 25s): Feel very confident that I, you know, I could do, I've done a lot of stall, so I feel very confident that I could handle it, but it's when it comes time to it. I just think, ah, yeah, I, I know that it's important, you know, they used to really say, oh yeah, you just go out on your sea glider and do it and, you know, save that for something else. But it's very different. I think it's important that we all do.
Speaker 2 (46m 45s): Yeah. Yeah. It for sure. It's, I mean, I let's see, I have got a one full frontal that went to kissing tips on the answer in Mexico, and that has been the only event where I have, you know, stole the glider out and just to back fly, releasing out. And it was just the cleanest you have ever can ever imagine. And that was the only, you know, full on thermic conditions in Mexico and still like, oh, okay.
No problems whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (47m 17s): Yeah. I mean, I think, I think having a really good back flies is probably the key in that, you know, just really just resell for just a second and then you're good. You know, I think that was really nice to just have that confidence. That's what I learned in only Danny's, you know, when I went out there for some accurate training a bunch of years ago, and I was trying to be really aggressive because I was over the water and I just really wanted to utilize this 10 days. And, and I had, I can't remember, it was a friend of jockeys on the radio with me and he one day.
Yes. And I had, I had the one day where I, I was, I had done something too aggressively and I was kind of in a, getting ready to go into a really bad cascade. And just as he was saying, backlight, you know, right before that, boom, I did it, you know, I was in back fly and I was ahead of, and, and then, then I re I really, for me, it was just a massive confidence boost was just, okay. I recognized it. And I went to where I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (48m 22s): Yeah. Actually he was the one solving this big ass cascade that I had really. Yes. Because I was supposed to do a course with him starting the next day, but I was already on the radio and I went as I was plummeting through the air and it was kind of giving up because I had tried to stole it so many times and I had like, kind of, you know, not released in the right timing or something. And then I then like, I Ana I don't know if you're on the radio, but do it again this time just slightly slower and it'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (48m 56s): You know, what I'm amazed with is the, the SIV instructors, they see everything. I think it's really good training to go through what they do. I, you know, seeing the guys that were driving the boats, you know, and just doing the towing. And I did a course with, with Dylan this spring, out here in California. And he, you know, I could see that those guys, you know, they were kind of apprenticing basically that they were really starting to get it because I can stand on the shore and look up and I can identify what's going on, but I can't be ahead of the pilot in terms of telling them what to do.
And these instructors that just do so much SIV, it must be really good for their own flying. Cause they're, they're always, you know, they're a second of H ahead of, of the pilots all the time. It's really amazing. They see it as in real time. And I think, whereas the pilots always reacting, you know, they can anticipate it and it must be a great way to learn.
Speaker 2 (49m 57s): Yeah. I can imagine the same
Speaker 1 (49m 59s): Flatlands. I want to talk to you about flatland training. Cause you were in the epitome of the flat lands. I didn't realize Finland was so totally flat. I was just looking at the map here.
Speaker 2 (50m 10s): So you hit the terrain button on, there was no change.
Speaker 1 (50m 14s): Exactly. It looks the same, but just tilt it up. But what can you tell us about, are there some secrets? Are there some things that, you know, you're, you're, you, you take, you fly differently when you're in the flats than in the mountains. Are you thinking about things differently?
Speaker 2 (50m 32s): Well, I mean then again, the elevation difference it exists, which means that the thermal will still be triggering off something. So that's maybe the thing that you have to start paying a lot more attention to the surrounding area, like, okay. On 10 are normally placed on a small height. So on tennis should be trigger points. For example, then you checking the contrasts a lot, imagining this cold, hot constructs.
Like if you have a swamp, for example, that is in front of them, a thermal trigger, for example, and these types of things, you're still you're checking in. And of course you have to, it helps if you are well known with the area, of course, but you can still fly great without, without knowing the area. I would say, of course it is the, it is easier when you have clouds like in any place. I mean, that is telling you exactly where to go, but also maybe think a bit further that if you have a small little river than most of the surrounding area will be slightly more moist and most likely not be working as well.
Even though if it is this cold, hot contrast. So these types of small things,
Speaker 1 (51m 54s): So you won't, you won't follow a river, but you might, you might hit it if it's perpendicular. Is that what you it's
Speaker 2 (52m 1s): Pretty much you like the river valleys. I mean, it's not per se a valley here in Finland, but, but still, yeah. It's of course it can still trigger, but there is often a huge risk that is slightly lower and moist and not working. Okay.
Speaker 1 (52m 18s): Tell me about when you said, when you said contrast something that's, I've always been slightly confused or maybe more than slightly confused with, but when it comes to bodies of water, I've, I've found climbs on the Windward side and on the side. And I, and I never really know what to punch for, you know, if you're, because the contrast is of course happening, as soon as you get to the Windward side, but it, does it take awhile or where are you trying to kind of cover?
Speaker 2 (52m 51s): I would always go for some like kind of obvious, you know, geometrical shape kind of a bowl shape goes on to the, to the lake and go off of there. But then of course, if you have a bit of wind, it will be drifting. So it may be the Windward side of the lake, but you're already, you know, quite on the opposite side of it by then. No, at least in my, my experience it's we are normally leaving quite quite a bit distance, like on the Lee side of the, because that's normally not re yeah, the end of the lake is normally not really working.
So we're trying to avoid that area.
Speaker 1 (53m 34s): Interesting. Okay. Cause in the, in the SureTel I had quite a few down in Brazil, I had quite a few saves, just, you know, it's windy, right. It's windy on the ground. And I quite a few saves there, just parking myself at the end of a lake. So then I, you know, if I didn't get something I could just ditch and, you know, because I always found it kind of scary to do it at the Windward side. Cause if you don't get something, you might not make it across the lake, but
Speaker 2 (53m 59s): If you're having quite a big lakes as well.
Speaker 1 (54m 2s): Yes, yes. Good point. Okay.
Speaker 2 (54m 9s): Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54m 10s): It's are hard for me to visualize that in terms of how it works. It's hard to understand. I see what you're saying. I mean, if you're at the lower side of the end of the lake, all that air is just coming across all that cold. It doesn't have much to kick off and yeah. Okay. That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (54m 25s): But I guess it depends on depends on like, and place and all the other parameters that goes into.
Speaker 1 (54m 32s): Sure, sure. What's your process Gianna for planning, you talked about your record. That was more your partner's thing. It sounded like you just, you know, he bombed out, we may have happened, but yeah, but what, what do you take me through the process of planning, you know, a big flight in Finland or anywhere, but you know, when you, when you were in the air to try to break the record the day that, that he did take me through the process and go, not just that day, but go back to, you know, what weather resources, forecasting, mental side of things, how are you preparing?
Speaker 2 (55m 11s): Well, it's pretty straight forward, really checking windy, checking the wind on the ground. If it's launchable preferably if you're supposed to go one way quite rapidly increasing, but land double wind. And then of course you're checking the, the thermal prognosis and that's that's of course, one of the benefits with Finland, I think it seems to be prognosis wise, quite predictable as most of the times they are accurate, which is of course, very nice.
So you're checking that and then checking the airspace where it's possible to go. And if you're planning a route, we are normally using the, is it fly? It's called notice. Yep. Excellent.
Speaker 1 (55m 58s): Yeah. So you're, you're putting your task into that
Speaker 2 (56m 3s): Or
Speaker 1 (56m 3s): Are you, are you able to pick up using sky side or other forecasting models or are you getting much convergence and Finland?
Speaker 2 (56m 12s): Actually, there is sometimes convergence lines quite close to the coast that we're getting.
Speaker 1 (56m 22s): So you're getting some company only.
Speaker 2 (56m 25s): Yeah. And I've only, I, it once and I didn't realize that was it. So I got scared and landed the stupid and I will never hear the end of it. Either
Speaker 1 (56m 39s): Convergences and the elusive beast though. Isn't it?
Speaker 2 (56m 46s): Am I flying something that I should not be flying, but am I not seeing why is it going up? Is it overdeveloping concierge?
Speaker 1 (56m 54s): Yeah. And one of the things that I don't know why this hit me was such a surprise, but it did is, you know, often conversions can be quite rowdy. And I, at least here in the, in the desert, you know, when we get, get into a convergence line, it's pretty hands-on. And in my mind, I just don't see it like that. You know, you have these two forces of air and they're coming together and I see, I see it. That would be kind of rough, but as it goes up, it should be just shipping.
You don't like the convergence and Baez. Spirit's a little hands-on, but it's, it tends to be pretty nice. But other convergences I've been, especially in the Alps, I've been in convergences where you're just, whoa, oh my God, this is routing.
Speaker 2 (57m 38s): Yeah. I have to admit that I don't have enough experience to say anything about the coverages here, but at least, but I did experience that one time. It was actually pretty nice and smooth.
Speaker 1 (57m 52s): Yeah. I think a sea breeze conversions can be pretty nice. You know, when it's going, it's coming off the ocean. It it's, it's something I need to also work on quite a bit more. I think sky site, you know, because it's built by soaring pilots, sailplane pilots it's I think they're, they're really tapping into that and I understand it can be pretty reliably forecasted. So I'd be worth looking into up there and Finland be,
Speaker 2 (58m 17s): That'd be a good way to go. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58m 20s): Tell me about Joni's record. How much more is on the table there? You know, how extraordinary was that? Is that is, is he just way more to go? Is that
Speaker 2 (58m 35s): I would say if you get that one magical day, because there's 500 K it was prefrontal, it was south to north, which is kind of unique. It's not happening often at all, but actually he did launch rather late. So there's at least like one, one and a half more hour of day to be spent for such a flight. So the question is of course, okay. Face the world record possible.
Well, I mean, no one thought it would be possible to do flat 500.
Speaker 1 (59m 8s): Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (59m 9s): And that was possible. So yeah, I'm kind of the same because at first it's like the dream level limit was 400 that got broken and then like what one and a half, two weeks after 500 is like, unheard of is that even possible
Speaker 1 (59m 28s): Records are meant to be broken aren't they?
Speaker 2 (59m 31s): But of course you have the benefit of a very, very long day when you're flying south to north. Because I mean, you have the polar circle up there, so there's plenty of sun at least.
Speaker 1 (59m 43s): And does your, does your thermal window, you know, and around the solstice, how long is the day or what, when does it, when does it possible to get going and survive? And when is it, when would, are you almost certainly going to be on the ground? Cause you said you launched late.
Speaker 2 (1h 0m 1s): Yeah, he did launch slightly on the light side. I, of course these are different days, but we have been launching maybe at earliest half past nine, something like that, like nine plus nine and then have been flying until almost like nine in the evening. But I would say it's still theoretically possible 12 hours a day. Of course, it's not like Russell that this will happen like every day for one week in.
Speaker 1 (1h 0m 36s): It's really interesting because the, when I did the Alaska thing, I really expected the thermal day to be longer than it was. It was late. We could often fly quite late into the evening. It just didn't get dark until midnight one o'clock 1:00 AM, but it wouldn't start for a long time. And I just
Speaker 2 (1h 0m 56s): Slightly higher pressure
Speaker 1 (1h 0m 59s): How, you know, we just didn't have, I didn't have any access to anything the whole time I was up there. So who knows? I don't know. But it was, it was really often, we weren't really flying XC until, you know, two, which is solar wind up there, you know, just the time change stuff. But yeah, it was that kind of caught me off guard. I wasn't expecting that, but that might've just, you know, who knows that could be all kinds of reasons, snow water, you know, high pressure, tons of stuff.
Speaker 2 (1h 1m 28s): Yeah. Because I've noticed that like, one of the things that they are complaining about in Sweden is that it does not work at all flying high pressure and stable days is just, it's just not working for us here in Finland. And it was kind of the same in Norway. It was not really working there either, but here it's working, but it's just starting late. So you can still get a like five-hour flight starting at three o'clock in the afternoon. Wow. Like to strong knives, thermals as well.
Speaker 1 (1h 1m 57s): Ah, I can't wait to get up there and fly with you again. Sounds, sounds amazing. Yes, we've done a lot of, we don't do a lot of towing down here. Got it, got a little taste of it in Texas. And some of it was terrifying is windy,
Speaker 2 (1h 2m 15s): But that's of course one thing as well, because I mean it's dry and hot and a bit down in Texas. I mean, here, that's one of the nice things that it's not like it would be scary to land in the middle of the day here. It's completely fine. We're not having these super rowdy thermals that it would ever be a scary thing to do. I guess you just
Speaker 1 (1h 2m 36s): Have to
Speaker 2 (1h 2m 39s): Pretty much, they are actually quite lethal here. They're big and
Speaker 1 (1h 2m 48s): They're just no fun, but you're not going to die.
Speaker 2 (1h 2m 50s): No, exactly. It's, it's going to be a cloud of mosquitoes, but mean it's not like a grizzly we'll take you or something. I've seen worse.
Speaker 1 (1h 3m 3s): Johanna, I want to be mindful of your time. I know it's getting really late there and you have, you have a little one, but one more question and then we'll, we'll wrap it up. What skill this is. I put on all these questions online and I can have fun. Just dishing them out at all the guests. What skill or thing have you learned from life or any other sport that's helped you become a better pilot?
Speaker 2 (1h 3m 27s): Oh, well that's a tricky one scaling in life. It might be actually a computation computational fluid dynamics simulations, Because that's going both ways. It's something that I have learned a bit of as a profession, but which is of course a corresponding to everything we are doing in, in paragliding. Sure. So it's kind of helping each other that, okay.
And paragliding is a it's on a big scale. And most of the times they send a bit smaller scale on my computer, but mainly working with the same
Speaker 1 (1h 4m 11s): For some reason. I just, I don't know why I have to say this and just going with the flow. Joanna, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and congratulations on the little one and can't wait to see you enrolled the Neal. That'll be a blast.
Speaker 2 (1h 4m 27s): Likewise. Thank you very much.
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We put a new show out every two weeks. So for example, if you did a buck, a show and every two, it'd be about $25 a year. So way cheaper than a magazine subscription. And it makes all of this possible. I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors. We get asked about that pretty frequently, but I we're a whole bunch of different reasons, which I've said many times on the show. I don't want to do that. I don't like to having that stuff at the front of the show. And I also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people, and these are just our opinions, but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars and think that's a pretty toxic business model.
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And I'll set you up with an account. Of course there'll be lifetime. And hopefully in your being in a position someday to be able to support us, but you'll find all that on the website. All of you who have supported us or even joined our newsletter or bought Cloudbase, Mayhem, merchandise t-shirts, or hats or anything, you should be all set up. You should have an account and you should be able to access all that bonus material. Now, thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate your support and we'll see on the next show. Thank you.