Ferdinand (aka “Ferdy”) Van Shelven, “The Flying Dutchman” is returning for his 5th Red Bull X-Alps this June after taking a break from the 2019 race. Ferdy has been in the top 7 in all of his previous 4 campaigns from 2011 to 2017. How has a pilot from the flatlands of the Netherlands become so competitive in the toughest race on Earth? We explore his flying philosophy; his approach to risk; the dynamic with his wife Nicole supporting him in the race; the right head-space for something as huge as the X-Alps; how his approach will change in this edition; the good and bad side of ignorance; some of the sketchy situations he’s experienced in the race; how to follow your instincts; sitting out the 2019 race and a lot more. Enjoy this fun talk with a huge fan favorite of the race!
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Doing the race with your wife as supporter and a new baby on board!
The breakthrough of Ferdy’s 2017 race, and how he’s been so consistent
The crazy vertical the race requires on some days
Dealing with the risk of the X-Alps
Day 2 of the 2017 X-Alps when Benoit crashed and Antoine Girard got really hurt and had to retire from the race
How much psychological trauma can we handle?
Where and how Chrigel gains on the rest and the advantage of being out front early
Best/ worst experiences of the race
Mentioned in this episode: Red Bull X-Alps, Zooom, Tom De Dorlodot, Nick Neynens, Chrigel Maurer, Bruce Marks, Skywalk, Salewa, Toma Coconea, Aaron Durogati, Paul Guschlbauer, Simon Oberrauner, Rick Brezina, Michal Gierlach, Benoit Outters, Antoine Girard, Reavis Sutphin-Gray
Speaker 1 (22s): Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloudbase Mayhem I sat down with Ferdy Van Shelven to record this a couple of weeks ago, I'm now recording this opener a day before the U S election. So I have no idea what's going to transpire there, but hopefully we will all get through this chaos and life will go on, but a, this, this episode's all love and light. It has nothing to do with politics course, and I hope he enjoyed it. And the Ferdy Dan Shelven for Nim and Shelven this from the Netherlands is a UN until pretty recently lived in the flats and which is amazing to watch him compete.
And the X Aussies competed four times in his first wasn't in 2011, he's never done worse than seventh. A squeak me out, beat me. And it just got me into the final day of the 2015 race. And then he did not compete last time in the 2019 race. He was hanging out with Tom to Dora Lono and some of his other friends. And I wanted to just see what it was like to sit on the sidelines a bit decided he couldn't do that again.
And he's back for his fifth and this one in the 2021 race. So this episode is mostly about the X outs, but also about how he's been able to pull off such extraordinary moves and do so well, the, in, from the flats and you see this growing up in the Netherlands and now he lives in Sihon and make snow and in Verbier and the mountains of Switzerland's. So he's in a much better positioned to train and fly in the mountains.
And so I'm sure he'll be even a sharper weapon coming into this one. So, but always a fan favorite takes incredible minds as an awesome attitude, his supporters, his wife, and goal, and they just had a little baby. He's got a five month old at home now. And so we talked a lot about risk and how that's changed his approach and yeah, just how he, how he, how much he loves the X Alps. And as we dive into the 10th addition to the XL, so I thought it'd be fun to have him on a show.
So a lot of fun with this one is always great to sit down and chat with. Ferdy love this dude. We had a chance to train together quite a bit before the 2017 race and a awesome guy. So
Speaker 0 (2m 52s): In Jordan, Ferdy
Speaker 2 (3m 1s): So cool to have you on the show, man. I appreciate your patience and putting this all together. And I didn't, I didn't know that you lived in Sihon now, your you're a Swiss resident, what's it like being in the valets?
Speaker 0 (3m 14s): Yeah, it's, it's changing changed a lot compared to Belgium where I used to live before. Like that's great to be in the mountains and then be able to, to train and on a fly in and do all the things that you can do in the mountains. And it's a, it's a big change it's yeah, I like it.
Speaker 2 (3m 36s): I understand your, your working on the snow guns. So your snowmaking, was that something you you learned in Switzerland or is it something you brought over from, from Belgium Netherlands in that area?
Speaker 0 (3m 48s): Yeah, of course. It's not really into Belgium stands to try to make snow and everything, but there are a few like tiny ski slopes with a, when I was a kid, I was really fascinated by snow. And so when I was younger, I was trying to make all these snow guns in my garden, tried to make snow and in the garden. And then in the round, I don't know when I was 18 or something. I went to France and then worked there one season in a skiing area and really liked it.
But then I have to work well, I did that too, but my family, I had a business in Belgium and some people left and then they needed for the, he didn't need me, but I felt like it was needed. And then I decided to move back to Belgium and then worked for them a few years. And then when I came back to Switzerland yeah. And maybe it's a nice job. He always outside. And I thought, why not try this?
So how do you say The? How do you call this? The chef for the, the guy who runs the, the smoke and so the manager. Yep. So it's, it's nice in three years time. It's, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (5m 11s): No, that, you know, historically you've been at the sport of paragliding and Flying for 125 years or something, is that right? Or you'd been at the string, you'd been at it a long time, but it is right. You've got in to this when you're a really young, right?
Speaker 0 (5m 27s): Yeah. When I was around 10, I think 10 or 12, and my father was well starting to paragliding because he always dreamed of it. And then they had this outdoor sports company and then they did a beginner courses for a better line just to get a sense of what their gliding was. And then I was going to with, yeah.
And, and I would just fly on the, on the flip, on the flat part. And then my father would help me that I wouldn't fly off too far. And then, and then I was when I was 12 or so I think I already started flying from, in the Alps back in Belgium from some small Hills. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (6m 21s): Yeah. And how did you get the, how did you get the mountain experience that you brought into your first X Alps into 2011. Were you at that point, were you a pretty experienced mountain pilot or were you just kind of winging it?
Speaker 0 (6m 35s): Yeah, it's really weird actually, when you live in the mountains, now, you think how the hell did I, how did, how did I do is, you know, because all of these crazy winds, you get a phone and everything you don't where you have heard about it when your live in Belgium, but you don't really understand how it works and everything. And when you live here, like people are actually always talking about this and they're always busy with this. And then when I used to go to the Alps, I would just look on like some standard, a weather forecast, and then a look, if there was any wind or something and then looks fine.
And then I was just a Flying sometimes you make these crazy ideas about this phone, wind and everything. And then of course at a certain point, it can be quite a tricky and dangerous. But I remember once during one, there was quite a lot of notes in, but I flew like 50 Ks. It was a bit turbulent, but I was on the lease side of the, the, the, the mountain and then coming out of the Valley towards Lake Como.
I think it was all of a sudden in like this wind coming down from San Marino Valley, all of a sudden I was turning more to drive, crossing the Valley. All of a sudden he was flying backwards and I asked him what's going on in here? And then looking down and a sort of the cornfields, like going there were almost flat, you know, because there were so much wind on the bottom. So then I turn around and feel bad for a little bit from the Valley I was coming from, because at that, yeah, well, dad was fine.
So to be fine. And then at the end I landed Flying a bit backwards, but it was still manageable. And then some local pilots from Italy, they came in and said, Oh, you're crazy. Why are you flying with these conditions? There is 80 club as well. And it was just because I didn't, I didn't know actually, but I still feel 50 cases. So I landed
Speaker 2 (8m 55s): That's a good day.
Speaker 0 (8m 59s): And then there was funny because he was, Flying also, also from Belgium. He didn't really knew, but he was flying on the, on the other side, on the North side. And actually the day we flew quite a bit. And then were you in a bit later on, we find each other again, quite a few places that day, because like all the other guys didn't fly because it was a phone and you were not supposed to fly, but it actually, it was fine too.
And sometimes it can help you with sometimes it's nice also not to know everything and just feel or look at this guy and do whatever you think is good or something like this. I think.
Speaker 2 (9m 48s): Yeah. And this is, I mean, this is definitely some of the things I really want to talk to you about probably just a little bit later. Cause I, I, you seem to have a really good feel for following your instincts. Maybe a, I don't know if you'd frame it as a kind of flow kind of entering flow channel, but you've, you know, you clearly have a real gift per Flying, but for, for this race as well, you know, your, your first race was 2011. You've competed four times. This is, this will be your fifth, your you've been top seven.
And in every race you, you snuck me in the 2015 race, which I'll never forgive you for. You've put in a good move on to me that second to last day. And I was actually a, I don't know if you and I ever talked about that, but it was, and I was sitting under this chairlift basically contemplating that I'd just nearly died in the I'd gotten stuck in a really bad Valley winds and didn't really recognize it. I was in the Lee and, and, and I just, the last report I'd gotten was that you and Nick were, were grounded and you were way behind me and I didn't really have to worry about you.
And then my team didn't have internet and that whole VARs area, and whenever in that town, South of there, and, and you had crossed the Valley quite, it made a quite sexy move and crossed the Valley too, the better side on the West facing site and just flown right over my head. So I, I would, I didn't know any of that. I was just sitting on the ground and when I found out I was so furious, I just thought, Oh God, to catch him up, I've got to catch up. So I had a really nice flight that evening. And then I ran all night trying to catch you. And I, I just imagined that I could, but you're also very fast on the ground and I never even got close,
Speaker 0 (11m 37s): But the, yeah, but it's also, for me, I always wonder why I ended up so well, because of course I do train a bit on everything, but it's always about decisions, you know? And like that day I thought I flying on the same side as you and I was flying in this East faces. And in all of a sudden I thought, yeah, well, you know, and there's this wind coming from the source. And then there is the sail planes flying on the West, faces there.
And then I thought at a certain stage a, well, and it was a, I dunno, around one o'clock or something for us to the West. And also because of this Valley window and then I, the West face. So it was super windy. Also on this side, there was a lot, like I got stuck there and then like, I couldn't get around the corner on a mountain because the wind was going, yeah, not really the right direction.
And so then I walked just, I don't know, maybe 500 meters to, to get across a range. And then I was on the other side and I was like super windy. Like I thought if I was, I wasn't in the race, I wouldn't of took off. And then I thought everybody has seen this video of Gates off and then gets shot in the air. And then I thought, well, he probably is the same. And then afterwards I'll be fine. So then I tried and then, yeah, it was a bit the same. Like I took out there and then I got up, I think, 1500 meters without making one turn or not going backwards and forwards.
And just, I went up like this and then all of a sudden there was less wind on the top. And then I started flying again forward. So yeah, actually it was quite easy, but a bit scary at the same time. I've got the same thing. So the first year, if this Valley coming from Brioso and then afterwards is this other Valley from the river. And there are a guy the, exactly the same thing. Like I was Flying I was super high.
I don't know what the, the ceiling was that Dave and I think 4,000 meters or something in it. I got in the least side of this mountain in front of me, I was full, but pushing and I, I think I was only at one CAE to go and I had a, I dunno, maybe a thousand meters above this mountain and he just went down minus 10 meters a second. So just the stuff that maybe to 300 meters above it, that if I don't make it, I end up in one of those crazy valleys in the back there.
And I really didn't want to do is I was really pushing, pushing, pushing, and then the, the wind in front of them. And, and again, and then the same thing, I went up again, 1500 meters straight up, and then afterwards it was fine. Again, I was Flying everything in there. There was a bit better, but it was crazy flights. And then I remember at the end, like having all those winds, there was this Valley going towards the sea. And then I thought there's probably going to be as much window as is value.
So I don't want to land at the bottom.
Speaker 2 (14m 54s): And so all of the soul of Valley that, that is in training that night, when I landed Jason, you, it was very mellow, but Holy cow, in training down there, I had some days that were terrifying and in that Canyon just funnels all of that wind off of the Mediterranean. It's just really windy.
Speaker 0 (15m 12s): That's what I thought. Yeah. But then like my supporters were wait in the back because we feel so much, so I couldn't ask them if there was any win in the Valley. So I landed like really stupid in one of those side valleys instead of landing on top of the mountain or something. But I thought, okay, well, I'm pretty close to the two, the end. I'll just add somewhere on the side and then I'll be in Monaco tomorrow. But when I walked back, they're the main Valley.
There was like zero with that. I could have flown maybe 20 Ks further if I would have flown straight. But then I just landed in one of those side of that is to just to prevent myself. And I was already been so scared by all of this wind that I was just hiking. And then there were two following me all night. Yeah. It was pretty funny. And I remember like falling asleep while walking towards, at the beginning of the day, like when the, the light just came up, I was really falling asleep while walking.
And then Nicole was, my wife was telling me, I don't know how to do with the screen.
Speaker 2 (16m 32s): You know, that it is at some point that night, about five o'clock in the morning. I came up to you on this side of the road and I started talking to you. I was completely hallucinating. I just, I mean, you were still 12 K ahead of me or something, but I, I was completely asleep. I was walking just like the dead. And it was, it was like, I was a dead person and I kind of opened my eyes or maybe they were open. I don't, you know, but you were, you were sitting on this bridge and I walked up and I was like, Ferdy, do you want to come in?
And I just, you, you didn't exist.
Speaker 0 (17m 9s): Right.
Speaker 2 (17m 9s): Completely hallucinating. At that point, I was out of my mind.
Speaker 0 (17m 14s): I actually, I saw him. I told you just get some rest, man.
Speaker 2 (17m 25s): Oh, that was, I actually had a really proper kind of break down the next, the next day we got some beta from a friend in Australia that said, Hey, somebody is flown in this little Hill. You know, that, that, you know, and maybe you could, you were, you were nearly in pay at that point, but in, you know, maybe you could climb up this and, and squeak it in there. And I was so wrecked and we We client in, and, you know, it was a, it was like a, a a hundred degrees that day. You know, it was torture. I hate Monaco.
And I, I climbed up this thing and it was like three hours for it. Wasn't a very big climb, but I was just smoked at that point. And my feet were mangled and I got up to this launch and it was kind of Wendy from the sea. Like the sea breeze was just starting to set in, but you could see it, all you had to do was, and that, you know, you got that in a really tight airspace there, but you can see, all you have to do is go back, like go away from PE and follow the terrain back. And it was kind of a U mountain and it went and bought a, brought me over onto the Ridge and PEI.
And then, you know, there was clouds and it was real obvious what you would do, but you, I would have had to fly away from pay to do it. And I couldn't force me. I couldn't, he couldn't do it. I was like, there's no way. So instead I did the dumb thing and I just pressed into the wind towards the ocean and flew, I think I flew like five kilometers, you know? So, so I climbed this big mountain for nothing, and then flew five kilometers. And I landed in this kind of like sewer river. It was really filthy and really dirty. And, and, and then realized, you know, when I brought it up on my phone, I still had, you know, buy the red bull tracking.
It was like three kilometers, but I had to walk like 14 kilometers, whatever it was, you know, cause it's up this windy road and tons of vertical game. And I had to go way up and I looked at that and I just, in my mind thought, I can't, it's not possible. I just can't do it. So Bruce pulled up and I said, Bruce, I can't make it. It, he said, all right. So what are you gonna fucking do? You're going to, you're going to quit the X ELPs when you're 14 kilometers away. And he's like, he basically kicked me out of the car. He said, get going, you have a wimp, but you just, it's, it's crazy.
The place that, that, that race puts you in mentally is really something else.
Speaker 0 (19m 44s): Yeah. And I know for sure, but it's true that this last bit, yeah, it's terrible. I call these windy roads and nothing goes to, nothing goes straight. And then there is this, all the sparkly bushes everywhere, which is pretty terrible.
Speaker 2 (20m 2s): Yeah. We got, we got shredded going through that. There's, there's a section where everybody else went to, but we, I don't know if we lost the trail or it's just like that, but Ben just got treaded. It was, it was just, he was kind of just grabbing these vines and yanking them out of the way. It's torture back there as well. What was it like to sit out 2019? You were, you were with Tom that first day. I got the chat with you a little bit. And the cars, it was raining and we were all walking at that point.
But you know, one of the reasons I signed back up this year was I just thought, God it'd be tortured a watch. Was it hard? Or was it was a kind of fun to take a break?
Speaker 0 (20m 44s): No, it was actually a quote. It was fun to see it from another point of view because when you, when you're in the, well, of course, I always see it as a big deal. Like it's a, it's a big thing to do this race, but when you're in it, like, it doesn't matter. Well, when your, when your alarm sets off at three o'clock in the morning or whatever, you're like, shit, there we go again. But then you wake up and then you start walking or you try to in the beginning, and then after a few steps, your muscles get loose a bit.
And then, and then all of a sudden you're walking again and then the day starts and then until 11 and then you go to sleep again and then you just keep doing it for two weeks. And then if you're lucky, you're in Monaco. But like when you see it from, from like, when you can take the rest, you know, when you're not in the race, like yeah, you hike up a mountain and then you fly a bit and then you think, well, it's fine for me today. You know, I've done enough.
But then he said, okay, just come with me. We'll hike up this mountain again. And then we'll fly from there. Okay. Fine. And then you do one more and then you see a lot at six o'clock already for me is fine now, you know? And then they still have to hide. This is just crazy. But to do so much in to the adrenaline of the race, that you don't really know the performance that you're achieving, like it's a, it's a crazy, when you see it from the outside, you really think it's crazy what the guys are doing.
And actually you don't, well, I don't know what to say when I'm in a race anyway. Yeah. Where he saw from, from, from the outside of like this there's something special. Of course. At some point I was doing some flights and in some times I did some stupid things, you know, even when I was following the rays, I thought, luckily I'm not in a race now, as far as I would have been the best or whatever, the dyad, of course I missed it, but it's different, you know, when you're not really in the race, you make other decisions and that's just not the same.
And of course, otherwise I wouldn't of done it again this year, but yeah. You know, the feeling like every time when you finish this race, you think on that, I'll never do it again after a year you're so yeah, it's quite nice. Let's do it again.
Speaker 2 (23m 28s): What's the hardest thing for you when it comes to the race, but if you take the whole thing, the, the, the training, the, from the very beginning to the very end with what's the hardest part
Speaker 0 (23m 40s): I'll take the week before the race
Speaker 2 (23m 43s): Disposition or the nerves,
Speaker 0 (23m 46s): Because it just takes so much stuff.
Speaker 2 (23m 48s): God, yeah, God, that's, it is awful. And it's crazy
Speaker 0 (23m 54s): On this side and everything. I don't know, but it's also kind of nice. Well, it's nice. You know, like all the guys from the Xcel is like almost all of them are competitive, but also really friendly with each other. So they, yeah. Yeah. Like we are chatting now. It's a, it's like that with every pilot and that's a nice thing about the race, but yeah, there isn't really a thing. I hate to all the only thing when I finished the race and I'm really well, my, my worst experience was in 2011 there I was really, we hiked so much during this race.
And then I think I was still a young and just pushing my buddy to do whatever my buddy could do. Like my mind would just keep saying, okay, just keep going, keep going. But then not really took me like half a year. I think to, to recuperate really took me like so much of this can be a good for you, you know? But I lost that.
And then during this race, yeah. I was like, I didn't skate. Well, wasn't really prepared for everything, but it was crazy. Like, I think in the race, we had three days where we hiked one day more than a hundred kilometers. And in two days around 95 or something, I think I walked 150 kilometers. Is that it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (25m 31s): Do you have any of you historically? Do you have any foot problems? Yeah. Like blisters?
Speaker 0 (25m 37s): No, not really. No. Like the, the, the last race in 2017, 'cause it was so up in this to me, but there are some problems, I guess, like, Yeah. And then one of my Chili's was also really bad, but I think it was just because of the heat, but mainly I'm doing fine with only like during winter, when I started ski touring and always get some blisters on my heels once they are gone again.
And then I'm fine. But now usually I'm quite okay with the blisters.
Speaker 2 (26m 27s): How has your approach changed between 2011 and then going into the 20, 21 race? I mean, obviously you've got all of the experience, but did you have, do you have different goals now than you did and what were, what the goals?
Speaker 0 (26m 45s): So I remember in 2011, my goal was to finish it in the top 10 and to reach my goal. I don't know if it was a goal, like a hope that somehow it was possible because I was really thinking that I wasn't, you know, for this thing or, well, I will try, but I didn't really know what to expect. And then, so I remember I studied the course Chamonix. Like I told him if I reach so many, I would already be already happy.
And then I remember it, like, it was two days before the end of the race that was in Germany and shit, and I really didn't know where to go. So yeah. Then I was kind of asking to jump chambers where where's your, where are we going now? So we'll go up here. So I just stopped if I reach so many, I would be a pretty cool. And then I ended up at the corner, like the race finished over there because Monaco two days earlier, I think.
Speaker 2 (27m 57s): Yeah. I think only, only he and Toma got in that year. It was at the 2011 year called the glibc is a nice place to end. And it's beautiful.
Speaker 0 (28m 8s): Yeah. No, it was nice. Yeah. And so that was my first race. And then the next one I thought, okay, let's do a bit better. Like, especially for the nutrition at the end, I should have some, shouldn't lose so much weight during this race and then a more proteins to recover and more. Yeah. I think I only lost like three or four kilos during the 2013 one. So that was more acceptable.
Speaker 2 (28m 37s): And has Nicole supported you and all of them?
Speaker 0 (28m 41s): No, no. Like in 2013 she came, but towards her when I reached France or no, a little bit earlier in the thing she came, but then I think you were already Flying then in 2013 Now. So now that year, like 2013 in a few from the whole, what is actually, so a few from a different purpose all the way to come out.
And then how did the same thing going to this country to Chamonix?
Speaker 2 (29m 17s): I remember that really distinctly on, I was watching that race really closely at you made some wicked moves or there you were, you were a really fun to watch that year. That was an L I N 2011, but you you've had some really cool lines.
Speaker 0 (29m 33s): Yeah. Well this was a bit of luck as well. So I reached the, was there a mouth and then I saw to the Cloudbase was really high. And then I saw a manual Newbill I think, I don't know who is dead. He was catching up on me and then not, I think it wasn't that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29m 53s): Yeah, because his first year was art was, was my first year too is 2015.
Speaker 0 (29m 57s): Yeah. So the next time, so the first hour is with regard to your thing and then like we both kind of saw, there was a, B would be the, yeah. The best, the best way to go. And then yes. So we picked blood line and it was a really nice because the end it's a way shorter than the other one. And then I ended up in Chamonix that night and then I saw Nicole from, he, she followed us to the Monaco and then, and so the next 2015, he has also followed me a bit of a thing there.
Yep. And then in 2017, she was my supporter. Now she will do it again. Right.
Speaker 2 (30m 47s): You got to tell me about that. What's that like, I, I just can't, I, I love my wife to death, but I can't imagine doing a race with her.
Speaker 0 (30m 57s): Yeah. Nicole she really likes the whole race in everything. And she likes all the, all the, the other pilots that are in the race and all the social or the social network around it. And then she's like the first race is I was a bit scared to know too, because then our relationship was quite young. And, and I was also with a supporter, which I had a, quite a strong how to say character.
He didn't think there would match with Nicole's character. You know? Like it would be difficult during the race. Like she always told me I wanted to go with you and support you in everything. So like in 2017, I was still a bit before the race. I thought, I'm not sure if it's going to work, you know, because for me, like you're saying, it's not always easy when you're with your wife or, but then at the end it worked really well. Like a, yeah. Like everybody had his task and not the end of when we didn't really fight during the race or whatever.
So it was, no, it was pretty good. And then of course, it's, it's quite nice that yeah, the person who loves the most follows you during the race at the end, and it was a great experience. And so now we've got a good, this year is now a five months old. And so it's, yes, it's going to be more challenging this year too, to prepare for the race as well.
Speaker 2 (32m 43s): Time-consuming so, well, he come, we will he come with you guys? I guess so. Or do you have grandparents or something?
Speaker 0 (32m 49s): Yeah, the grandparents who will care of him.
Speaker 2 (32m 56s): And I think Tom's got one coming right before the race with his second.
Speaker 0 (33m 4s): Tell him, like, what was it there before we got the news that we were selected? I said, yeah, I don't know why he didn't select the, for the XL. And he was like, no, why? And then they wouldn't select me this year. There was someone else and whatever, and he was really sorry about you. It's really weird that he did. And then a Deanna said, no, no, it's a joke.
Speaker 2 (33m 38s): Yeah. There's, there's no, there's no way you're not getting there. And you've been, you've been incredibly consistent and, and fun to watch. And you're a big crowd. Favorite. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about 2017. Cause it, I mean, you, you know, you you've been on top seven every time. It's not like in a way you had a breakthrough, but it seemed from the outside. I didn't have very good race in 2017. I had made a really bad move early on. That really costs me. But the, it seemed like he kind of had a breakthrough in 2017. You had a really solid race all the way through, even at the end.
I mean, you know, again, it was one of those hard weather races, only two people got in, but you were right there and, and you had some wicked competition is some very fast people on the ground. And those kinda at the end, the end was a lot of walking and running and the weather was brutal.
Speaker 0 (34m 33s): Yeah. I don't know. I think like, I don't really, I don't mind, I don't, I don't mind walking really like in the like sometimes a bit worried, but I always say to my support is to try to convince me to fly because just sometimes I think, well, I'm just, I'm just typing now. And then I'm just cruising along and then I'm going forward. I don't take it from the risks at the end of the day.
I can do, I can do that for 80 kilometers. And then, well, I've done 80 kilometers, but I don't mind the walking part. So if it, if it gets difficult than I, I don't really care. What I do mind is flying into a really shitty conditions. So when I, when I get dust around and whatever, like flying in the LLI all the time and I can manage that for, for a while, but then after a while to think is really worth it.
And then I'd rather be safe than sorry. You know what I mean? So, yeah. It's not really the answer to your question, I guess, but yeah. I don't know. I always wonder why I'm so consistent. Like I really hope that this year has gone. We're going to do fine again, you know, because it's also a bit of luck. I mean, sometimes you, yeah, you have to be well positioned in the beginning.
Don't miss any good Flying days. And if you do one big mistake on the good day, especially now that the level is quite hi. Yeah. You're, you're all the way on the bed as soon as you make a mistake. So I don't know how to do it, but if keeps the, I keep amazing myself in 2017 towards the end, everybody, all of a sudden, like I remember one day I was really, I was going from a to B was the turning point.
Yeah. And then that day they expected, I think Westwind, I dunno, 40 kilometers an hour. And I was really thinking no way, I'm gonna, you know, and no way of going to fly him out. I don't wanna die in a, I don't want to risk it. Flying every time into the li of these. Yeah. You're a true riches and everything. So I thought, okay, well I was not ascribing, actually the beginning of the day I was going to do this. It was like four times.
Yeah. 1500 to 2000 meters, essentially. Like, and then the same going down 'cause it's like all of these valleys, you have to cross uhh, hiking. And then I thought, how the hell do a thousand meters or a physical climate one day its impossible at the end, the, just the first, the Cynthia and I have to fly in the first one because I wasn't there. And then the next one and he was starting to get windier.
So I hiked back up at the end of the day, 5,000, 6,000 meters, but I just walked and then all of the other guys, they were flying and I thought, okay, now all gonna disappear. You know? And at the end, like money or a new role, he was really tired. He got sick in a state, somebody on the mountain and I don't know what happened there, but yeah, they, they they're made some mistakes or whatever with the other guys in front of them.
And then some guys through, into the airspace because he was quite complicated they're so the oldest seven, like two or three guys kind of disappeared, disappeared in front of me. And then, and then the one day before the last day I decided to try to fly because I thought, yeah, I don't want to hike in this 40 degrees flats there in Italy.
So, and then, and there was Flying quite well. And then I still, I still did this stupid mistake because the one time was flying in the lead or like in the East face in the afternoon. And I was growing up, not so much. So at the end of our land, it, and then the last two hours hiking over this mountain. And if I just waited a bit more, I think I could of made it a bit more of a bit more a, I was just tired you.
So I just landed in high Becca, but otherwise I think I could have reached the B at the same level at one more mountain to grass. And then I will be at this level. I don't know where to go and funny because then there would've been another race against him, but yeah. And then I flew out in the flats in, and I hit this aerospace in a start to walk from there.
And I was just a few places in front of a seaman over on it and it, and then I called them, you know, the last day I said, okay, see him on your, I dunno, I was 10 K's behind me. I think, what should we do where I can wait for you? And I would just bring to bear here. We call it a recall of the day and then Free finished the race. Like, and for me, it's fine. Yeah. And then he said, he didn't really answer to me.
Like he says, I don't know. We hung up on the phone. I was like, shit, you got to run. So we're watching the livestream all the time. And it all, at a certain point he started running and I thought he was just going to run one day in and it will stop. And then he kept running and he reached like five days. He was five days behind me and I thought, Oh shit, I have to start running.
So then we ran out for, for two or three hours at the end of the race, just to keep that for me, it was like, I was joking. You know, I was, when I saw him, I was trying to kill him. But just in a friendly way,
Speaker 2 (41m 43s): It makes, it makes me feel even more ridiculous for, I had the exact same situation. I was way behind you guys at that point. But I was Michael Gerlach and, and The Rick Brazina from Canada and myself were coming into bell and zona and I pulled up, live tracking. I was, we were, he, Michael was on the other side and he was behind us at that point. But Rick had flown, he had made a better move on me and he was like two K in front of me. So I knew if I landed in front of him, I had them.
And I did, I landed like two K in front of him. And I packed up and I call, this was the night before, you know? So he still had quite a bit of race left. It was that night. And then the next day until 11 something, whatever it ended up and I called him and I said, Hey, please, can we just be gentlemen? And you know, either finish this together or, you know, can we just walk and I'll just stay in front of you, but we'll just walk. We don't have to make this a race. I mean, I'm in 14 or 15 and then it doesn't matter, you know? And he said, no, you don't have had fundraising.
Let's just race. And so I had ran a marathon that night to stay in front of him. I just stayed in two K in front of him the whole time. And then the next morning, you know, we both were lined up at 5:00 AM, you know, cause we'd already used our night pass. And so luckily we didn't have to do that, but then I ran another marathon the next morning and it was just like, ah, dude, please just stop. Just stop running.
Speaker 0 (43m 10s): Stupid,
Speaker 2 (43m 12s): Crazy, crazy race. Well, that was it. But that was a great result. And we'll get back to the goals thing. How do you know from these four races you've had and this kind of,
Speaker 0 (43m 23s): And I really thought, okay, let's train a bit more on an, as needed some serious Flying in the spring. And, and, and being in the outs really helped me also to get a bit more ready. Like every time I was going from Belgium, I always get it to the apps. And I thought, Whoa, I was a bit impressed. You know, the first few days, bits of oppressed by the mountains and the rock face in everything. And actually living here in Switzerland.
I mean, where we live. Yeah. There are quite some high mountains and it's quite a breakfast some time. So when I, this time when I went to Austria, I was thinking, Oh, it's almost flatlands all the other way around. You know, it's a nice green grass in the Hills and it's not so impressive. So that really helped him psychologically.
It was a much nicer it this way. And also physically I managed to drain a bit more. So that was pretty good, I think in 2017. And so at least before the race, I thought I might've lost my chances. And so there was good and this year of course tried to do my best again. But as you know, with a small kid takes a lot of time and I'll try to drain this as well, but I don't want to overdo it as well.
So yeah. So I'll just do my best and then see and see what happens as much as I can and train as much as I can, but it will be a bit less, I think, than in 2017.
Speaker 2 (45m 22s): One of the things that I've had a really hard time with in, in all the races and I, I recognized this after the 2015 race, you and I made pretty similar moves that day eight, you know, going into the matter horn and really jumped. But a lot of people, I went from eighth to seventh and I know you made a big jump that day, too, which really kind of saved. I mean, I, it wasn't looking like I was even gonna get to Monica, but the way that that's been a while, that was a good day for me. But I've, I've had a lot of days where I really struggle with Flying what I know is the right way to do it because it's way off course line.
And I start thinking about, well, what if I, what if I don't do it? What if I, you know, I was going to add 20 K of walking and that kind of thing, you don't seem very straight. I mean, again, I, I can't watch you and the race, I, I don't know a bit, I, I'm more judging from the 2011 and 2013 races when I, when I got to watch you, but you seem to be able to maybe not take it so seriously, you, you, you you're able to make moves that in the air that, that really work and not get bogged down into that.
It's not, it's not fear of death, but fear of blowing it, you, you seem to be very confident when you need to be confident.
Speaker 0 (46m 44s): I just take the route, whichever I think for me as best, you know, like I'm not a hater or a certain stage, so it'd be a game where did all the race, like everybody was just following what is beautiful, but it really depends, you know, each day is different than everybody depends on like, when I'm in the air of this looking, well, this looks better now because there was more of a sudden, or it looks a bit, yeah, I don't know.
Like I'm just judging whatever, whatever looks best, you know, and I'm not really thinking about what if, because I just think this is the best option for me or whatever. It's my judgment that I think on that day is best in. And I'll just stick to looking forward and try to get to the next race and to the next mountain, whatever, and to keep going forward. That's actually, what I really like about this is that you do some, I did some other, I can fly races, which are really quick.
And then you have to go to one point in an hike and then do this and, and go to another point. And then maybe you can get some more points if you learn in between somewhere. And it gets already complicated sometimes. And then in the Excel, which is just basically you going from Salzburg to Monaco for the, have to go through this several points, but yeah, that's going from one to the next, and then I'll just decide whatever is best to not always made these judgements myself.
Like I didn't trust on my supporters or of course I always ask them about the weather that day or whatever they think was best. But once I'm in here, I'm just judging whatever. I think this is the best thing that day. So I say to my supporters, what the hell did you send me? There was a really shitty or whatever. I just make my own judgment. And that seems to work fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48m 51s): How much are you in contact with them when your Flying
Speaker 0 (48m 56s): Not just when I have my doubts on Valley winds or whatever, then I give them a call. And if I like during the end, or yeah, I've got some, quite some surprises, some races where its done in the Valley. So just for us to ask if it's safe to land or whatever, but during the flight really doubt or whatever, just make my decisions during the yeah.
Speaker 2 (49m 28s): And how do you think about the risks side of it for a year? I remember when we were all hanging out in Monaco after the 2015 race. So, you know, everybody kind of had a pretty special story. We, we were dealing with a lot of wind in 2015. That is a funny thing to me about the races, how different each of them have been in, in 2019, there was no one. And I never went anywhere that I couldn't launch, which was very, for me as unusual, it was a very different race, but so it didn't feel very risky at all, but I mean, we had the, the bad weather and the middle of the race, but it was a, you know, it was very, everything was real obvious.
It wasn't, he wasn't like you were, Flying a lot of firsts or, and, and, but as you've gotten older, now you have the five month old. I mean, this is the question I get on the podcast all the time. And how does your, how you approach that side of it,
Speaker 0 (50m 27s): For sure. Huh? Because the five months old, but also because of a year when you're a young and people are telling you, you will see when you get older, more scared about things. Yeah. Whatever you don't think it's going to happen, but for sure you, yeah. I started thinking about all kinds of things when I'm flying in a, not really when I'm in this, when I'm in the racing road a bit less than a flight for myself, but 'cause, you have this adrenaline after the race and everything, the thing.
So you, you, you have to push a bit more, but for sure, sure. I'm weighing up that relaxes Kriegel is for example, which he doesn't seem to care. I know for sure. It, this is changing like a, sometimes we're flying along each of these big rock face, and I think what the hell would happen if I get a collapser and then pull my reserve and then I would be on these rocks and it would have a difference in any way.
Then I start thinking about this, but the other day I was flying in the Swiss, well, I didn't do the race, but I was flying along with the Swiss opened. And then we were just racing, you know, from one to another. And then I was just ready. I wasn't even looking at the rock faces, you know, we were Flying but four or 5,000 meters, it was really amazing weather and yeah. And everything. And you were just, yeah, Oh, this is not a guy who's in front of the Drudge to catch up.
So it's a bit of a, there was a race helps you to eliminate a bit of those fears, but of course you get the more and more, you start to think more about life and everything. And, but maybe it will help. I mean, in 2017, I thought, okay, I'm going to do this race, but I'm never gonna take risks for myself. So whenever I thought it wouldn't be good for Flying wouldn't fly. Like after the deal was to rainy days at the start and everybody was flying in this phone, went and seen some really bad things happening.
And I thought terroir was whatever happens. I mean, if I lose them places today, it's better to, to break my leg or whatever. So that was fine. I was hiking down the Valley. And so all of these guys Flying over and I was adding a belly X just by watching them. So I thought it's a good decision. And those are the same as when I was working there. I thought, okay, I have to do with this 6,000 meters up for it to go to climb.
But whatever, at least I'm a whole stay this way and not feel uncomfortable in a year. So yeah,
Speaker 2 (53m 29s): Yeah. That, that second day of the, you know, I, I walked all night. That was a pull my night pass off right off the start, which ended up being a big mistake. But there was a, so I was down in that Canyon when everybody started flying through and I don't think I've ever seen anything that scary in paragliding. That was a terrifying God. I mean, I even called, I forgot to say. Yeah. Yeah. And not, not, not Kristoff, but the Juergen, the safety director and just said, Hey, you better get the helicopter in here.
This isn't gonna end well. And you know, Ben walked, crashed what? He didn't get hurt. And, but God, that was ugly. And it was just really scary.
Speaker 0 (54m 13s): Yeah. A while.
Speaker 2 (54m 17s): Yeah. That was the end of his race. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, crazy. I'm interested. Does Nicole get nervous about that kind of stuff. Does she see in the sheet? I don't know. Cause I have this kind of agreement with my team that Revis, she does all my, whether it was Bruce in your days. Yeah. And he's no longer with us, unfortunately, but you know, he, he, he, they both know kind of what my limits are really well. So if they, you know, they, they figure it safe.
They'll, they'll put me they'll, you know, okay, here's your next launch, but they don't really give me a lot of details because they know I don't want them, you know, I'll just be thinking about it all the way up to a launch. So they kinda know what to give me. And what the whole back are you kind of calling all of those shots or is it, do you guys have an agreement along those kinds of lines?
Speaker 0 (55m 8s): Yeah, that's the thing I was telling you before. Like a, like all my support is I got the, the grade in supporting me, but they're not the best pilots or whatever. So they don't really know the best or like all of these things. I basically, well, sometimes they see on a map, maybe you could go there or whatever, but then I say, yeah, maybe I prefer to go there. So I make all these judgements myself.
So the Nicole doesn't really have to worry about that. And Nicole, hasn't really worried about me either, because I don't know, somehow I think she trusts the decisions I'm taking and to be the good decisions. And then now she's really cool with that. I mean, she doesn't go like, Oh, you're not going to die today or whatever. She is always really
Speaker 2 (56m 6s): Cool. And it's encouraging for me to hear. And as I think I've got about 12 years on you, I'll be 49 in the second and 48 now, but it's, it's good for me to hear that. Cause you've been, Flying longer than I have and that you, you know, you have all of the same reserve. What have I collapsed? Because I get a lot of the, of that in a way. And more and more, I used to be much more able to handle risk and you know, thought I was more invincible of, of course, than I do now.
But it is strange what the race does to your mind. As I I've, I've often felt, I usually try to go over and do a little bit of training before. And pretty much every year there's been some days that are just really pretty sketchy Flying and, and they scare me to death as they should. You know, and they're not really recreational Flying days, but that's same. If I had that same day in the race, it wouldn't be scary at all. It's weird. You get in this strange. And I also don't think they're actually even that risky either.
Cause your, your you're just really dialed in. And I I've I've I've had this theory lately that I F I'm. I wonder if our brains can only really handle so much psychological trauma and I think Flying is often pretty traumatic and, you know, to put, if you can get your mind to that next level, it really is just an attitude. Is it isn't it, it's just a different approach that for me, at least the three races I've been in, you get in that your brain goes to that point, the start of the race, and it kind of stays there for 12 days.
It just kind of stays locked in where you just, you kind of have it.
Speaker 0 (57m 52s): No, I know for sure. Yeah. Like, Oh, this is the difference in 2017 towards the other races, like the other race, I always felt like the last three or four days I would really be into it and do my element just so comfortable. Flying like a good pilot would do. Yeah. Like Griego fliers all the time or whatever, or, I mean, he does guys on Flying so much that this is just second nature of this in 2017, flew quite a lot to do in spring.
And then I was really already the first days of the race I was already, you know, and then I wasn't scared or felt okay, let's fly. And I wasn't worrying at all about any dangers or whatever. So that, that makes a quite a big difference, I think, to be mentally strong.
Speaker 2 (58m 54s): Mm. Yeah. So Ferdy, you know, and I did some training together before the sun was a 20 cent before the 2017 race. We had a really cool flight from Slovenia, from a tree glove of the back-end to Austria. And, but the, I think you, as you probably know, you know, Kriegel, doesn't do any of that. He doesn't, he doesn't go scout course beforehand. I mean, I think he Scouts it with Google earth and of course each Kriegel, I mean, he's flown all over the Alps.
This is probably not that many areas that he doesn't know, but I was, I was pretty curious to find out in 2015 that he doesn't, you know, before the race, he pretty much just stays at home, keeps training at home and doesn't go scout areas. What's your viewpoint on that now after doing it for times and what will you do
Speaker 0 (59m 46s): This year? I understand because you know, you, you like for, like, for example, we did this, Flying worked out this way on that day. But if your they're on another day with a bit different weather, you might take that same decision because he thought how that works, but it might not be the best decision for that day. What's important for him, his, that he takes a good decision on a good day.
So a few actually don't really know where you're going. You just make your decisions on what is your judged by the surroundings, by the goods. You see the clouds, the thermal is whatever. And I think it's a, it's always good to me. It's almost always bad when locals come and tell you how you should fly, because they always say, no, you cannot go there because it never works or whatever.
And then, and then when you listen to them, you end up listening to them and then you think, okay, I'm not going there because it's not working at the end. It might work. It just never tried it or whatever. And if you think that they might be the best decision, then that's what makes the difference between him and a lot of other pilots and things that he really analyze is everything for himself. And then it doesn't matter for him if he is flying in the lead, or if he's flying behind the other pilots, we, if he flies and all the privacy will, the other part is he sees in front of him to make the best decision from whatever he thinks to whatever the other pilots are doing, but he will stay and make his own decision, which will bring him in the lead again.
Speaker 2 (1h 1m 43s): Yeah. Luckily he hasn't have to deal with following too much
Speaker 0 (1h 1m 49s): And now this race, but I mean, in the normal world, whatever, you will see one of the always be in front of it. It's like a thing he said it is in one of the interviews. Like even if one of those young guys get in front of him, then you still need to be able to fly in France and make all those decisions yourself. Because I remember flying with some guys, like he was Flying exactly.
Every single line the Krieger was doing. They were putting him in on his GPS exactly the same, which is in the right way, because the day he flew there, it worked. But you might be one or two hours later and not the best line anymore. I think it's really important. I mean, your support is a really important to this race, but also it's the, the pilots at the end who, who needs to make this, the right decisions and he's in the air and you can't blame it on your support as well.
At least you can blame it either on your support. I mean, it's your decision. So you got to say, what else did you send me up there with a really shitty or whatever. So I think this, this is a strong point from Griego, which makes him so good pilot.
Speaker 2 (1h 3m 15s): Yeah, yeah. And reading it on the fly. And obviously he's the best at that. 30 of us to ask you what is maybe an impossible question, but I hope he can answer it. When you think back to your four campaigns, do you have a best in a worst experience? I know there's so many of both, but do you have one that really pops out?
Speaker 0 (1h 3m 43s): Yeah, I think the best, the best was 2013. There was a, I was in Grenoble made is a really crazy line going South. And then later on crossing back to the main,
Speaker 2 (1h 4m 11s): Like, like down, through, down through gap or something like that, you kind of stay with the st Hilaire side for a while.
Speaker 0 (1h 4m 19s): Okay. So a few days, and then flew over the, the flat four for a little bit to go back to the search. And then from there, there was a tour of Francis at the same time, the, a certain point I landed on a mountain. I called my support. I said, yeah, I don't know, man. It was really hard. It wasn't working at the beginning. I really have to fight to get up.
And then in all of a sudden, before crossing these floods, so I got like a thermal, which I don't know somehow when the box, the Cloudbase and there was another Cloudbase higher up. And then I could cross this flats and then a race. It was really hard and the whole book and still cover some ground from there on, but it was already six o'clock or something. And then managed to fly over to a scent, even Ferdinand on that.
But there was already like in two hours or something, I was flying like super fast. There was a huge amount of back wind. And in every West face that I will stumble on or almost not face I would be, get to go to. Like, it was really the 80 kilometers from Monaco. There was a really great flight. I think I overtook, I don't know, seven or eight pilots during the flight. So that was really great. Like a really nice flight then overtook all the pilots
Speaker 2 (1h 6m 3s): You took the wide line and yeah, I remember that. And I remember watching that then it was a lot,
Speaker 0 (1h 6m 8s): It was a bit of luck as well because I asked pilot's incentive there. What could I do? And then in spring, and as I said, yeah, well, sometimes we go with this line and then sometimes we cross and then we go deeper, like your saying. And then I said, Oh, okay, just try this line. And then it works. Usually it doesn't really work in summer because it's too stable. And so, you know, it was a bit of like, as well as just talk about this line too, some local guys in spring when I was there.
And then yeah, it was pretty a pretty hard. And I really did some low safes, like worth a shit. It could have been good to have gone really bad as well. You know, I could have finished fifteens or whatever, but yeah, it worked out fine. So that was cool. And then my worst planning, some crazy when somewhere like my worst also was when Therma, I think was in 2015, when it was all of these winds, this eastward or East wind
Speaker 2 (1h 7m 39s): was the strong West. That's when he landed in the coal up there going backwards and a million miles an hour.
Speaker 0 (1h 7m 48s): And then I was already like, fuck, why are we doing this? And we have to fight so much and is it really worth it? And then, and then we took out from this place with your mind. And I was looking back with West of my, my eyes on open. I don't know, I couldn't find him anymore. And then something happens, you know, and he be there. And then, and then I left and then I called my support, what is happening with the lab?
Because he was just behind me and I couldn't. And then he crashed crying as well. Like, what the hell are we doing this? I thought he was dead because he took off from a small ledge, like had 10 meters of grass. And then there was this big rock site. And then if he did something wrong of the steak coffee, I don't know what could happen, but then it can be good to know him.
Maybe he fell down this rock face and is actually what happened. So he, he tried to take off. And then when he threw the, had a short to pull up your glass of water and then turn around and then kind of jumped off this cliff that he just jumped off a cliff with the glider to much in the bag. And then sort of glide is still the ones he wasn't in the air. It wasn't actually flying it. And then the light stumbled down is this clear fan and luckily landed on.
So he didn't fell down all the way, but, but yeah, he was lucky there in that he didn't, he hurt himself more than I think he just had a small injury on his wrist or something, but then he finished the race there, but I was really thinking, why the hell are we doing this?
Speaker 2 (1h 9m 50s): And then in 2015, I made me that was a different year. He was in 2015 was when he pretty much got his face torn off. And he, he, he had to, he had to quit the race. So that was the same day that Michael Vichie threw is reserved. Right.
Speaker 0 (1h 10m 6s): But I was talking about the door.
Speaker 2 (1h 10m 9s): I'm sorry. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. You have those moments where you're like, Whoa, kind of a reset. What are we doing
Speaker 0 (1h 10m 22s): The next day? I had this great slide from dad, from the bus all the way to, to Chamonix. Yeah. And then I was happy.
Speaker 2 (1h 10m 32s): Yeah. Yeah. You have your ups and downs just like wine. Ferdy what a, what a joy for me. And I appreciate it. And so psyched to see your name on the, on the list. Again, I need to be coming back, but that was, it was great to see your name on the list. Again, we got a lot of young whippersnappers. Are you going to be chomping at the heels around out, or we're going to be jumping at their heels or I guess more likely, but a it's a, it looks like a really well, probably the strongest field yet and exciting to see what, what they give us for a course, but I'm really excited to, to fly with you again and spend some time with you again,
Speaker 0 (1h 11m 14s): And then raise with you again. So,
Speaker 1 (1h 11m 16s): But thanks for sharing your stories.
Speaker 0 (1h 11m 19s): They will be interesting again. Yeah. We'll see. You will see. And always is. It always
Speaker 1 (1h 11m 25s): Is. Well talk again
Speaker 0 (1h 11m 27s): Soon. Good luck with your training and COVID,
Speaker 1 (1h 11m 31s): I mean, obviously it's not
Speaker 0 (1h 11m 33s): Looking that good right now for coming over, even doing it,
Speaker 1 (1h 11m 36s): The race, but a COVID dependent will be seeing you and mayor
Speaker 0 (1h 11m 39s): For June. So you're saying soon. All right, bye. Talk soon. Thanks. Ferdy bye. Bye.
Speaker 1 (1h 11m 53s): If you find the Cloudbase may have a valuable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. You can give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher, or however you get your podcasts that goes a long ways and help spread the word you can blog about it on your own website or shared on social media. You can talk about it on the way up to launch with your pilot friends. I know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way. And of course you can support us financially. This show does take a lot of time, a lot of editing, a lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind the scenes costs. So if you can support us financially, all we've ever asked for is about to show.
And you can do that through a one-time donation through PayPal, or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out. We put a new show out every two weeks. So for example, if he did a book, a show, and every two weeks, it'd be about $25 a year. So a way cheaper than a magazine subscription. And it makes all of this possible. I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors. We get asked about that a pretty frequently, but I were a whole bunch of different reasons, which I've said many times on the show. I don't want to do that. I don't like to have that stuff in the front on the show.
And I also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people, and these are just our opinions, but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars. I think that's a pretty toxic business model. So I hope you dig that you can support us. If you go to Cloudbase mayhem.com, you can find the places to have support. You can do it through patrion.com/cloudbase Mayhem. If you want to recurring subscription, you can also do that directly to the website. We tried to make it really easy, and that will give you access to all of the bonus material, a little video cast that we do and extra little nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show, but we feel like you should here.
We don't put any of that behind a paywall. If you can't afford to support us, then just let me know. And I'll set you up with an account. Of course, there'll be lifetime. And hopefully in your being in a position some day to be able to support us, but you'll find all that on the website. All of you who have supported us or even joined our newsletter or bought Cloudbase may have merchandise t-shirts or hats or anything, you should be all set up. You should have an account and he should be able to access all that bonus material. Now, thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next show.