Episode 117- Thomas Theurillat and Transformation

Thomas and Chrigel win for the 4th time

In 2008 Chrigel was heading into his first Red Bull X-Alps Campaign, and mountain guide and base jumper Thomas Theurillat was completing a degree in psychology. Thomas was passionate about figuring out how to help people not just change for the better in sport, business, or life; but transform into something better and stay that way. Chrigel wanted to win, but he didn’t really have a plan to make it happen. The two met, Thomas put his wizardry into motion and Chrigel became the best hike and fly competitor and mountain pilot the world has ever seen. Thomas and Chrigel won four consecutive X-Alps campaigns between 2009 and 2015 and several X-Pyr campaigns, a record that will likely stand forever. Thomas is now the head of OneDay coaching, where he and his team combine a full day in nature and a unique coaching system for business leaders, athletes, and industry professionals to hone in on their best possible selves. In this podcast we find out how Thomas and Chrigel found the magic; the different types of goals you should set and what types bear the most fruit; getting into Flow and the dangers that lurk for those who chase it too hard; life in the time of Corona; the power of visualization; using a “time jump”; coming “down” from the X-Alps, focusing on strengths instead of weaknesses; making dreams specific; and a lot more. This was a mindblowing experience for me, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.


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Show Notes:

  • Meeting Chrigel and taking on the first X-Alps
  • What is OneDay and how does it work?
  • The post X-Alps blues and leaving Flow
  • Goals- which ones bear the most fruit
  • If you can dream it, you can do it, but the dream has to be specific
  • Analyze success- look for patterns
  • Coronavirus and the world as it stands
  • Don’t talk about what you don’t do, talk about what you do
  • Asking questions instead of giving advice
  • Becoming empowered so coaching isn’t needed
  • Ranking goals are crap
  • Performance goals and process goals
  • Big vs small teams
  • Coming down from Flow- exiting the Flow Channel
  • Reality vs expectations
  • The pursuit of happiness
  • You don’t get happy chasing numbers
  • Pursuing mastery
  • How do we deal with weaknesses?
  • The big picture. Take a look at it.
  • Adding fun to your goals

Mentioned in this episode:

Jeff Shapiro, Cross Country Magazine, Hugh Miller, Red Bull X-Alps, Chrigel Maurer, Paul Gushlbauer, Tom De Dorlodot, Yael Margelisch


Chrigel and Thomas giving a TedX Talk

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0 [00:00:23] Hi there everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase ma'am wanting a long strange trip. This is Ben. I hope you all are safe and healthy and I hope we get back to the sky and what we love soon. But in the meantime, I'm glad that the show seems to be a source of good education and entertainment.

0 [00:00:44] I really thought that we were going to see a big drawback and support for the show, and if anything, it's been the other way around. There's seems to be more people listening and more people supporting us. And that comes at a very good time. For me personally is my, my business, but her side of my life, my kite surfing business in both businesses, obviously on hold indefinitely here.

0 [00:01:10] And so that has kind of created not a very good sector right now adventure travels. So I really, really appreciate it and as always, always better ever asked for as a buck a show. And as always, I've always said that I don't want that any support for the show to impinge on your health or wellbeing or financial soundness at any level.

0 [00:01:33] And I want this dude and pinch John your morning latte. So, uh, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much there. Obviously we put a lot of effort and time into the show and uh, and I realized many of you can't support us but you can thank you for doing so. And at the same time I want to make sure that you all are getting the bonus content.

0 [00:01:55] We put out these bonus episodes, we just dropped another one last week with Jeff Shapiro on whether we're doing this, whether series forecasting and how to identify good days to go flying. And we don't see a lot of downloads on those. And I'm assuming that's just because you have to go through a couple more steps to get that subscriber content.

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0 [00:02:37] So you get it on your whatever app you use to listen to podcasts, whether that's podcasts or iTunes, Stitcher, whatever. It's pretty easy to do. So it only takes a couple seconds. If you don't have an account, just send me an email. I'll set you up. One, uh, most easy way to get an account is just subscribe to our newsletter. We don't give that information out to.

0 [00:02:59] You can also do that when you're on websites right there on the homepage, subscribed to the newsletter and we'll get an account. And so those show up, obviously you can listen to the bonus content online. You just go to the website, but I realize it's much easier to get it on your phone so you can listen to it when you're hiking around or on the way to launch maybe here shortly or if you're in the car.

0 [00:03:20] So check those out. There's some great material there. As always, we never put anything behind a paywall. These are available to anybody. It's just a different kind of feed and we just have to get on the program to get it. This show with Thomas theurillat Thomas. You all know him? Of course. He was chrigel supporter in his first four campaigns, which of course one, he's also the head of one day coaching is actually coached.

0 [00:03:46] Many of the people we've had on the show said his spina Patrick on Cannell. I'll Butial Bower on the door. Ludo a Yale Margulis who we haven't dropped yet, but I recorded a show with her last week. She of course broke the world record last fall and we'll be in the 2021 X out serving that goes well for her, but he also coaches just people in life and business, all kinds of things, so it's not just the sport ruled, but he has an incredible program and incredible philosophy and pretty heavily into flow.

0 [00:04:22] Now he's a former base jumper and I just think of him as a wizard. We reached out to him basically to have a kind of a mini mini session with him using me as the subject for the book. But I haven't talked about the book and many, many months. But we are getting very close to being done with the Cloudbase mayhem book. This is kind of based on the first a hundred and some odd shows.

0 [00:04:46] And the first half of the book is dedicated to kind of deep dives with 20 of the people I've interviewed and gosh I guess going on six years now and Thomas we thought we definitely needed to do one with Thomas. So this is basically a little mini session that we had with him. Kind of open the flood Gates on my mind with, with Thomas.

0 [00:05:07] And this was just fascinating to see how he works and to see how he gets people to their best performing self. Think you're gonna really enjoy it. This was a blast and it was a fun one to work on for the book. So keep an eye out for that. We're getting close.

0 [00:05:28] I have something for you to read here, hopefully. But hopefully by the time we get it out, we'll all be back in the sky and this is something we can read at night. Joy Thomas

2 [00:05:44] thank you so much for coming on the show. This is a real treat for me. Of course. I followed your campaigns with, with chrigel back before I started doing the race. And you, you've always been kind of one of these wizards. I've, I've very much enjoyed your writing and talking to quite, we've had quite a few pilots on the show.

2 [00:06:05] Uh, SAB a spina and Paul Gushi Bower and chrigel. Of course a lot of people who have been through your program or have gone to you for, for help with whatever they're trying to accomplish. So it's it, I can't wait to learn about your techniques and one day and then maybe we'll, we'll take me through a little, uh, adjunct of what you do.

3 [00:06:26] Great. Uh, for me it's an honor to, to, to be in this show and the, let's try what we can explain what, what we do in this invisible, this invisible a being of, of coaching and psychology.

2 [00:06:42] Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a cool thing that it's, it's invisible and what we, and we're flying in the invisible, so the two go hand in hand in a sense, don't they? I thought it'd be fun to just start with one day what was its inception because it's not just athletes you train, it's, it's people in all kinds of different walks of life.

2 [00:07:04] What exactly is one day?

3 [00:07:07] Yeah. We have to start when it comes to changes I think, um, in nature or human being, there are two ways of changes. For example, if you do sports, you can learn something like some pull-ups and then if you stop draining, they go away. Or you can learn language and if you stop speaking the land, which you lose the birds and we call this a change.

3 [00:07:33] But in life there are also changes which we call transformation. For example, if you learn swimming or if you become a father and you have a family or uh, something like that, the world cup digital, this is a transformation we call it also a change on the second level.

3 [00:07:54] And for example, if you look about the fly butterfly never becomes, goes to a flying school. There is a transformation and then he's about to fly. If you're do popcorn, you have the core. Suddenly this popcorn and it's interesting the popcorn won't become corn anymore. Transformation are changes which don't go back and our company is specialized in transformation and because of that we need the whole day.

3 [00:08:21] We think it's much more powerful to spend a whole day and try to make a transformation instead of spending 10 hours or 10 times one hour just to try to make a change because I S I or we, our whole team from one day coaches, if we can help someone, if it's about leadership, it's about resilience, it's about peak performance to find the best version or the next level.

3 [00:08:49] Then we have a transformation. There is a new approach, a new mindset and this will change and that's why we need a whole day time in a row and that's also the name of our company. Also the name of our program.

2 [00:09:05] What does one day with one day look like?

3 [00:09:08] The one day, which is a whole day of of a hike or an NA nature experience. And during this day we do solution focused coaching talks and there is a pre-call often three or four weeks before an invitation with homework for both sides. And then there was a post call like a month or two later where we try, how good was this transformation Alrighty, that's our product.

3 [00:09:35] And so when we go to the desert with clients from business or when we go to the mountains, they are all very, very well prepared for this day because they had the pre-call and we know the goal of them, we know what they want, what they don't want, what they know, what their strengths are. And then during this day we try to find a new version for them.

3 [00:09:56] Or then you will behavior they search for.

2 [00:09:59] And did, did one day lead you to chrigel or chrigel to you or was it the other way around? Did your work with chrigel I understand you started working together in 2008 for his first X Alps campaign in 2009 is that correct?

3 [00:10:16] Yes, that's correct. And in this day we were in the start because I wasn't so sure how it is, how, uh, very, um, modern and useful, uh, coaching service should look like. And during these excerpts we found a lot about sports here in Switzerland. There is a lot about um, leading, cause I think we are all, all companies are on a very high level.

3 [00:10:44] If you want to make a difference at the company, you really need to have a very sporty mindset, well as a businessman, as an entrepreneur. And um, so it was really good to have such a challenge in, in sport. And it's interesting cause I think if I'm really honest, I think we didn't brought something, we didn't do something new in 2008.

3 [00:11:08] The only thing was we brought something which was, for example, I didn't know in golf or in other sports into the paragliding road. In other sports, it's totally normal that you work with a mental coach. And I think in 2008, it was new to come with this approach, um, to except some paragliding.

2 [00:11:30] He has said many times over the years that a huge portion of his success he, he puts on you and the mental coaching he got from you. Can you give us a condensed version of kind of that some of the things you, you worked on together?

3 [00:11:48] Yeah, and I think this is totally overrated. I think, uh, this is not the thing is I think he had on his level, not the right, uh, challenges in the mental side before everyone was saying, you're doing good. And we were saying, Hey, uh, for example, how does chrigel Milo look if he performs a 200%, we know from every tree how he, this free can look when he Fluor is 100%.

3 [00:12:18] But if you ask athlete, how does it look when you're 100%? And when you, when an athlete has to pay this, uh, answer this question, then he'd say, Oh, I will do more of this. Or I will do less of that. And then I say, I don't accept more or less, I want to hear a number. For example, how is this a perfect, except they looking when you perform 100% in a given the situation and then you, you have a picture.

3 [00:12:47] And I'm very, very convinced that if you can dream it you can do it. But first of all the trim has to be very specific. So I think the um, the work we did, it's very funny cause then not long time ago we were thinking about this because I will book project now the first paper he had to ride me is what he wants to tell when he's in Monaco of this first race.

3 [00:13:14] And we call this time champ. So I, I ask Emery every client for example also, yeah, okay, who flew 500 kilometers in price and last year she had to explain us, what do you want to tell after the record flight? And I think if you really challenge people to explain their dreams, then it's very interesting how they will imagine what they can do with their strengths.

3 [00:13:42] So this was, for example, the first thing, we still have this book and it was interesting that he says, okay, I use 80% of the time, which is possibly to fly during the day and always 15 minutes before term starts on the East slope. Changing my closes, I will have always it the right food.

3 [00:14:02] I changed my socks off all two hours. If you ask someone direct question, he can imagine the perfect day. And then if you know the perfect day, then you can start preparing. What do you have to do that this happens? How many campaigns did you do together? It was three. There was four, four in in the last one we talked a lot about before the race and also during the race and maybe, but I really think is interesting is um, this was for me, 2000 lemon Atherton next to trimming.

3 [00:14:39] I also think it's very important, maybe specific important in Switzerland to analyze success. I think in the U S if someone is very good, he knows that he's very good. And if someone is good in Switzerland, he's too shy to think about why he's winning. So I asked a lot of athletes or also businessmen to make a list about the top 10 success.

3 [00:15:06] And when you look at the list of maybe you can do also one's a list or everyone who is listening. So to take one evening and make the homework, it can be Xcel sheet, my 20 best flights on my Tempest flights. And then if you analyze this a little bit deeper, you can look, okay.

3 [00:15:26] Is there a pattern behind it? I know for example, from pilots, they often fly best if they are not at home because then they have a holiday or they are far away from work. It can be that it was in week condition or in strong condition or that it was during a competition. And when you look through this list, it was very clear during this flight, he's often alone.

3 [00:15:52] Yep.

2 [00:15:52] W what did you make of that? That he was often alone.

3 [00:15:55] Yeah. That's why we took the knife passed the first night when we talk to that house. Uh, uh, 11, the night pass in this day, it was only to be intubated position when he's first cause when he's in front it it, it if you go for a race, 4,000 kilometers, it doesn't make sense to go full on the first day.

3 [00:16:15] This is stupid. But when you know you're a good pamphlet, if you're alone, that's the reason why 2013 when he did the resin, the six days, we took a night pass the first night just to be in a good position to next day. Cause when he's alone he flies better. Then if you have other people around him, I think to understand really success and to understand, okay, if I have these circumstances or this mindset or this equipment, then there's a high probability that I perform my best.

3 [00:16:48] If you know this, then you success gets to something like a recipe. If you have several ingredients and you do it in a separate procedure, you will get a nice cake. And if you look at why people often win over several years only because they understand how would they uh huh, success pattern or this success recipe.

3 [00:17:12] And sometimes with athletes or business or companies, we really tried to write a book or write a document about what is my success recipe, because if you, nowadays you can repeat. If you don't know it, you have to be nervous for every competition.

2 [00:17:30] Walk me through the, the PDF that you sent me that has the various stages. It was just a one page and it's kind of how you've broken that all down. Is that something we could explain through audio?

3 [00:17:44] Yeah. I think this spring when we have the in the world, I think it challenges us. It challenges us all to be our best version and the last two weeks or the last week we put together a little bit toolbox. What can be good tools that a family or a company or a sports club can handle the given situation as positive as possible.

3 [00:18:15] For example, one tool is, it's called the helicopter view is just to imagine you're sitting in a helicopter or in a satellite satellite, very high over your house and Gavin. If you sit now in a helicopter and you're, let's say 3000 meter over your house, what would you recommend yourself

2 [00:18:41] jump to tell? It'd be really fun.

3 [00:18:44] Good jump. And if you look down to you making the podcast and having the family, but do you recommend for example, to do during April?

2 [00:18:53] Oh, that, you know, this is something I've been thinking about a lot is it's been such a treat to have so much time to dedicate to my family too. Just being real consciously with them instead of dreaming or thinking about something else or planning something else. Spending hours in the kitchen is, I love cooking.

2 [00:19:14] I got that from my, my father and my mother. So it's actually been a treat. It's actually been really healthy, I think for our family. And certainly for me is, um, I tend to be kind of a driven person and it's hard for me to slow down. So from the helicopter view, I see calm.

3 [00:19:33] Wow. Wow. And this is very interesting. You're, you're in a very challenging time of, of the world until with a helicopter view. You, you are, you start talking very thankful about your life and you see that column or calmness can be a good tidy for the month of April.

3 [00:19:53] And on the other side of the, if you go down, you see the rocket, which we call the time chomp on this for example, it could be, if you continue thinking like this, you can say, okay, when we call again end of September, what would you like to tell me? Then about spring 2020

2 [00:20:13] I'd like to tell you what I think I'd always liked to tell you is that I took advantage of that time that I was present. And that's, I think being present is one of the hardest things we have in our lives. And so I think if that's what I, over the scope of my life, that's what I think I've, the times where I've looked back without regret have been the times that I've been present that I've just, that I've just noticed it, that I've been there for that time.

2 [00:20:48] I wasn't thinking back, I wasn't thinking forward. Wow. So being in the moment, yes. And I think that's all we have, isn't it? Maybe. Maybe this is maybe, but I think this is very interesting. After one minute you're very clear what you want. Yeah. Well what I want and what I get or do everything sometimes, but that's what I would like.

2 [00:21:10] That's what I would like to see, you know, and in at the end of September, I guess when I've chased being present, things work better. Okay. On a scale from one to 10, 10 you have all the skills and the mindset and you're totally present. And Guam is the opposite. You're flipping around.

2 [00:21:31] Um, where are you right now? Okay. Nine. I'm high right now. Aye. Aye. Aye. This time, the last two, three weeks has been really quite extraordinary. Uh wow. Yeah. Not, but that would not normally be where I'd be on the, why you sit nine, I'm not one.

2 [00:21:53] Why is it all right? The soul group, I spent a lot of time, this answers, it sounds a little complicated, but I spent many, many years sailing around the world a couple of times. And so I guess I'm used to external forces that you can't control very much. And you know, I'm used to things like storms and attitude to me is learned and is kind of everything.

2 [00:22:23] And so I guess I'm not, you know, I'm scared like everybody is in these times. But in a, in a sense I know that there's very little that we can do and we might as well enjoy what we can now. So I am a nine instead of a one because I'm just more there than I typically am for my family and for just being here.

2 [00:22:54] It's nice because there's nowhere else we can really be. Wow. And what can you do that you don't slide down? Don't get back to the old pattern. What can you do that you stay on a nine maybe for the rest of the year or the rest of your life? Gosh, what could you do?

2 [00:23:15] I have thought about that. A lot of the answers. I don't, I don't have a great answer to be honest because I have, I've tried meditating, you know, mindfulness practice for years now and I really enjoy that. That definitely helps. Being in nature helps me a lot.

2 [00:23:36] It just, I must spend time outside that is very good for slowing me down. My business has been an enormous distraction the last couple of years. And the Corona virus has been incredible enforcing that. There's nothing I can do about it right now.

2 [00:23:57] It's a boat business. The boats in the Seychelle, she can't even get into the country. So, um, there's very little I can do and it's, so it's been nice to kind of push that away. Uh, I don't know how I would be able to do that necessarily in the future, but so may I ask, I may ask you one small question.

2 [00:24:17] If you can get to the 9.1, what would it be different? Mm. Little bit more grace. How would your family, how would other people see? Okay, now Gavin is a 9.1. We have been doing like a gratitude practice every night before dinner.

2 [00:24:43] Hey Maddie, what are you grateful for? And we asked my Fallon, who's two and a half and do so with her. We say, what are you happy about? Um, but we're not, we, we, we miss a lot of days. I think a 9.1 is just simply moving to do. Just making that a real practice. Uh, okay. Do you have a paper in front of him?

2 [00:25:03] I've got it right here. Okay. Okay. Nine pump. One gratitude practice. Okay. What's 9.2 mm. OK. not, not missing my morning meditation many times I missed that. Okay. Um, positive language is every morning I do my phone.

2 [00:25:25] Great. The growth. Okay. Okay. We don't talk about what we don't do. We talk about, okay, what's his name? Dedicated time. I will spend dedicated time each morning before breakfast. Just playful with my daughter.

2 [00:25:47] Okay. I'm from four. Continue intermittent fasting. We started this about two weeks ago. Something my wife and I have always wanted to do. She has ms and there's quite a bit of data now that shows that some kind of fasting, but especially just intermittent fasting can be quite good for people with audio immune disease.

2 [00:26:10] So I'm forensics. We're pretty good about exercise, but that can always be, you can always do more. Would it be something you do when the Corona virus is the way and to still keep doing?

2 [00:26:31] Yes. I think on something like a preparation of when you say I'm quoting the storms, so maybe the challenge is to be good also in nice sailing weather with a lot of work, which is possible. Yeah. Maybe you know what I've, I'd like to do is have more, I'm not a very structured kind of, I don't like to structure my time, but a little bit more structure I think would really help.

2 [00:26:58] So maybe more structured time in terms of dedicating certain parts of the day to certain things. In other words, I only do email from nine to 10:00 AM for example. Okay. So, so less distraction.

3 [00:27:15] Okay. So you will make the day instead of that a day makes you

2 [00:27:18] yes. Yes.

3 [00:27:20] Write that down. Okay. Okay. Okay. What would be a 10 but you say this is my best, my best version of myself about uh, impressive.

2 [00:27:35] Hmm. All of that combined. So you have the, the early wake up mindful time with my family. Structured time for business. Structured time for, you know what it is, it's the exact same as when I'm training for the XLS.

2 [00:27:55] That is when I'm a 10 I love training so much and it's the most joyful I ever am in my wife would agree with that because it's, I have something to focus on. So maybe that's the answer. Focus,

3 [00:28:13] huh? Or death. The thing is if you need a goal which is bigger than Excel or which is not connected to a sport.

2 [00:28:20] Yeah, yes, yes. And this maybe I'm jumping ahead, but when you and I were emailing before this was the hardest thing about my three camp X apps, campaigns is being done with the X. Alps okay.

3 [00:28:37] And maybe seven minutes before you asked me, can you explain something about coaching tools and uh, this is the one to 10 question I asked you

2 [00:28:50] and

3 [00:28:51] maybe taking hates me really for one, one to 10 questions. Cause I think this is, for example, when we, when we talk about coaching, this is very powerful, very simple. Maybe also knowing tool because first of all, you know, you get very specific.

3 [00:29:12] What is it about then everyone knows is some days somewhere between one and 10 and we focus in the first step. Why is it not zero? You tell me I'm a nine and we understand why is it Alrighty so high and what you can keep to, to cope with it or to stabilize.

2 [00:29:31] And

3 [00:29:32] I think every athlete has a Treme. Like you have a dream, um, or not every athlete, every human

2 [00:29:41] and

3 [00:29:42] now it is to have a mindful, thankful and focused life and to have days which you control and you, you work in that direction. Maybe it's easier if the direction is a sport competition, but you also can be like this without sports competition and you know what you want.

3 [00:30:02] I don't have to give you any advice. Just have to ask, what does 9.1 you tell me you're telling me. And now after the call you can call to your wife and tell her this. And when we come back to the tools, if you ask once a day yourself, it's, it's my behavior on track. And I think this is, we call it self leadership.

3 [00:30:24] I then you sail around the world or you go with all the daily hassles to work or you try to manage family and work. You can ask yourself because when you're sitting in a car, you know how the car is performing. If there's few enough how much the motor turns the minute or less. And if you start thinking about yourself like this, but I think this is very interesting.

3 [00:30:47] If you look at the marathon, everyone from these thousand paper knows the heartbeat. You can, you have peer feedback. You know how much your heart is beating. But if you also can ask yourself, how much is my focus or how much is my mindset about being thankful? And the moment you start thinking like this, you also learn it.

3 [00:31:10] And if a runner is very experienced, he feels his heartbeat. He don't need to look all the time. And if you start thinking about yourself, what is my focus? What is my energy? Is it me doing the day or are the emails doing my day? You get the feeling. That's how I, maybe the last five minutes was a little bit the next sample.

3 [00:31:31] How, how we ask questions.

2 [00:31:34] Yeah. You, you told me that you, you never, you don't offer advice, you ask questions. That was very powerful. That exercise you just put me through. Can you give us an example? Yes, of course. What was the most useful during this five minutes? Just to make me think about it. Eh, where, where was I?

2 [00:31:55] I hadn't thought about where I was so much. I hadn't thought about where I could get in a sense, it makes me create a goal.

3 [00:32:06] Yeah.

2 [00:32:07] I mean, if you'd asked me the same thing on the one to 10 scale, three weeks after the X Alps I would have been more around a one, two maybe.

3 [00:32:20] It's totally okay if you're on a tour, you can thinking about 2.1 right? That's totally okay. I, sometimes we have clients and they ask them, where are you between one and 10 and they tell me I'm on minus a hundred and then you say, fine, but do you don't do that. You don't get to minus 101 they, they know an answer.

3 [00:32:41] Why do people fall after a competition into a hole? Yeah. It's a very good question because it shows that's during the Capiche competition. They've been in a good state, mean high performing. Because if you're not high-performing there is no, I think performance is like the skyline of a mountain range.

3 [00:33:04] And then every mountain after a top there is a Valley. No one is even Everest. It's, it's, it's a top. It's, it's, there's the Merc peak performance that also means that there are valid weeks after the peak performance is inevitable. And I can explain this cause cause I think it's also interesting if someone is after a competition, not them, it means he was not up during the competition.

3 [00:33:34] Oh interesting. That's totally okay. And it's, the funny thing for me is I've done these X helps and this and coaching athletes in really challenging situations like a season in in, tough ski racing, a world cup or stuff like this. And if you ask people are our clients a lot questions like this, there's the moment when they start thinking like this by their own.

3 [00:34:05] And some, uh, for example, I remember once I asked people, how are you? And he said seven. And then I thought, okay, I don't have to continue because I don't want to talk with him about one in 10 but he was already thinking, okay, 10 would be, I am chasing the perfect day one is am I lost control.

3 [00:34:26] And then this is very funny for me. When you you see that or not funny. I think this is also the moment where I often stop coaching because I think I can't add value anymore. I need my time for other people and they don't need coaching anymore because they are empowered. So would that be con con add value and then I often think it's, it's better if this is often or this is in general my main goal to start the coaching that I tried to be, but it doesn't need me anymore as fast as possible because this puts the responsibility to the client and then when they can do this, um, that's all good they can think can win by DOE.

2 [00:35:13] How much is chrigel focus on winning versus just the next move is is he, is he thinking about and and how would you question him about that kind of thing during a race? Does that question make sense?

3 [00:35:33] Yeah, it makes sense. I would like to explain it in a different way. Okay, and maybe I don't explain it with with flying I can explain it with you or something else. Let's take a normal thing like a marathon. If you do a marathon, you can put yourself for goes one is a ranking goal.

3 [00:35:54] I want to win or be top 10 or whatever, and I say ranking goals are crap doesn't help you. The second thing is you can set yourself a performance goal. I'd say I do it in four hours, three hours, and the performance goal is something you can control. It's possible also that pondered other people achieve a performance score.

3 [00:36:17] It's also saying I, I go up the mountain and I do 3000 feet an hour, stuff like this and this is performance and you can measure it and sometimes this is useful. Then there are things like a process code which describes how you do it.

3 [00:36:39] For example, you can go to our marathon and say all 10 Ks, I eat the banana and they run with a heartbeat of 150 and the school is how you do something. Often the goals which have the biggest impact. You told me a lot about how you want to live in April, what you do in the morning before breakfast.

3 [00:37:02] What'd you do with your emails and if you can describe how you do something. It's often interesting that having a good result is something which is a very nice side effect because you're often performed the best with this and when someone says comes to me and say, uh, I want to win this or we want to pay the best company in this, I often say, okay, what kind of performance do you need for that?

3 [00:37:31] And when they can explain the performance they need. For example, if you can do 150 kilometers, I they in average you went the X hubs. This is the performance you need to bring. And I think if you say something like 17, 17.5 knots in average for 78 days, you've been Devante globe average number you need.

3 [00:38:02] And if you can run a hundred meters in 17 seconds for two hours, you can do a marathon in two hours. So this is the performance, uh, to achieve the performance you have to find time. How do I do this? How can I ensure that this happens? And all the focus should be on the how on the process.

3 [00:38:25] And sometimes the world is too complex. The world is too difficult to describe the how because there are external factors. And for that it's very useful to have a master Rico who say, when I'm good in something, then I also will do the how. Right? And if you look to Eastern, um, fighting culture or fighting art, they only focus on mastery goal because they are, they have over 1,002 years' experience.

3 [00:38:57] If they are a master, they will handle the how very good. And if they handed the how very good they win the fight. And when it comes to a difficult project, like let's say an subs, do you know what, what does most remained for me it means that I can fly very well in several conditions that I do to good decisions that I'm on the right time at the right place, all that.

3 [00:39:25] And you achieved your entire preparation. Mustard. Then how we scope if the how is good, the performance is good and the side effects is that ranking. That's how I think and that's how I or that we think at one day coaching we can make a change in the how and it's very for me.

3 [00:39:46] Nice to hear. When you tell me about how to come from your nine to your pen,

2 [00:39:54] what kind of coaching would you give chrigel a break down your, your role with, with chrigel when in in your four campaigns. Cause as I understand it, it was just the two of you for until maybe the last one. So you were doing the food and the logistics and, and, and everything else.

2 [00:40:14] Is he, is he really making all the, all the dis well just, just tell me what it looked like. Okay. I think

3 [00:40:23] it's very interesting. Um, if you have a big team, you should also see there's a big effort for the coordination of this team. If you have two papers, every one of the team knows all the time to say if they speak together, if you are straight P then the support also needs some time for updates, for calls with the all the supporter.

3 [00:40:51] Then also the complexity gets bigger and that's why we decided, for example, uh, in, in this very fast race in 2013 or also in totally different projects. I think one is that you say what is the benefit of being more? And on the other side also saying we'll talk to costs of being more, I really think being a child and being very flexible and um, not having to please too many people is an advantage.

3 [00:41:27] If you look to different sports, like sailing, the record for sailing around the boat single-handed is 45 days or 43 days and sailing with a crew is, it's only two days faster. So it it, it's very interesting that often bake a team, they look nice or it the beginning when they climbed 8,000 meter peaks, they've been big crews.

3 [00:41:58] But the outcome it's not, there are also very small companies which are very smart and doing outstanding products. It's not bigger is better. So this is, this is, I think from, from a work psychology point is a is a good question of what is a good size of a team when it's, when they have to complete this task.

3 [00:42:20] I don't know the answer. I also think that the, you can organize it in several ways. You can't win in quality if you increase quantity.

2 [00:42:33] Hmm. When I interviewed chrigel after this race I, I did it a lot of interviews with, with many of the athletes just to get their take and I kind of asked the same questions with everybody. He, he shared the, he called it kind of going into a darkness in 2009 and 2011 he, he went through very much what I was feeling, especially after this one.

2 [00:42:58] This wasn't so intense in 2015 and 2017 but in this race, I really felt listless after the race. And so I asked him about that and he said he, he, he kind of felt the same in 2009 and 2011 and he filled that. He's learned that to help, that transition is to focus on more goals.

2 [00:43:24] But I'm wondering, I'm wondering if there's, if you both spent some time with this, either back then or still do today with this, you call it the valleys. You're, you're, it's, it's good that you're on top of the mountain during the race. You're enjoying it. It's fun. But there's the inevitable. You can't stay there all the time.

3 [00:43:45] Yeah. And I think it's interesting. We know it from music. We know it also from doctors that if you have a concert or a tornado, if you have a complicated operation and then after that it's empty, you lose the structure or the goal.

3 [00:44:05] And I think somehow this is very extreme form free covered that often recovery is connected with a bad mood. If uh, that the month before was very high. We know it from soldiers coming, Hey, from a tough mission and or the I think it's very interesting or useful is the theory of the flow channel.

3 [00:44:30] Do you notice?

2 [00:44:31] Yeah. Chick sent me highs flow that

3 [00:44:34] yeah, yeah, exactly. And if you have the right mix between skills and the moms, you're totally in the flow. Um, because the demands are so high in the race. Also like an adventure race where you can choose your speed but also have external factors like weather you're for two weeks and when the race is two weeks means 250 hours, you're in this flow and the time is running.

3 [00:45:04] You taking care of, you have maybe have much sleep but a lot of coffee. Um, then you suddenly fall out of this flow channel. There is no goal anymore and all the skill you have are, are useless because it's normal life.

3 [00:45:24] Um, flow also makes, makes you lucky. It is maybe more or less sometimes like a truck. And the question is how do you handle life when you're not in the flow? Cause everyone tries to get in there but it's not possible to stay there.

3 [00:45:44] And I think sometimes action, it's something like you are very mindful and you're very present because the circumstances are extreme. It's somehow the opposite of meditation but has that same feeling. You're totally present in the moment because the circumstances need this.

3 [00:46:08] I did a lot of base jumps and during the airtime you're very fresh, very present, everything you see, very crystal clear and it's easy but you, you get to this state by external factors like uh, every Tufts sceneries or, or foster speed.

3 [00:46:31] And I think the goal is to switch to this state of mind by having nothing. And I think if you can also get to focus or at the state of presence without flying in strong terminals, just by sitting there and focusing on your praise for example, you can easily switch.

3 [00:46:52] But we all know that switching from one state for an author this transformation is that it's the tone. That's how I see it. Do you,

2 [00:47:04] do you think one of the reasons that some people, and not everybody, but some people are so attracted to sports like hang gliding, paragliding and adventure races like the X Alps is that we're no longer being predated, you know, we're no longer out on the Savanna worrying about getting killed by a lion.

2 [00:47:29] Is this,

3 [00:47:30] does this have something to do with our lizard brain? I don't think so. I don't personally, I think these theories, maybe they are, they sound good, but they are not so useful to explain because the same person with the same prep. Brian can also shape, show different behavior.

3 [00:47:50] I think if, if we have this tendency enough, that's for sure. But I also think that, um, it's, it's more about, uh, what makes me happy in life. And I think the challenge is, or that the situation is, if you want to be good in something, you have spent all your time there because you all spend all your time say, let's say in rock climbing, you're whole life.

3 [00:48:17] After some years it's about rock climbing. All your friends are in rock climbing. Your girlfriend is in planning. You lift the whole time of your life in the camp four or somewhere like this. And then there is not some, not so much next to the rock climbing in your life. And then if you get the accident or when you have to stop Gavin because you have an injury or it's, it's the bad weather, then life suddenly is very empty.

3 [00:48:45] And I think the challenge is to be good in something but also have, have something else in life which is fulfilling because people who have this, I think they, they have several sources of happiness and not only their sport, but maybe they are not so performing well in sport because they also spend time for something else.

3 [00:49:08] Is there, uh, is there a real risk for high level athletes too? Who who don't achieve that, who, who, who don't achieve satisfaction and joy outside of flow state? This very good question.

3 [00:49:28] I think you only can have a good career if it gives you a lot of flow cause otherwise you don't spend all this time training and preparation. It has to be somehow intrinsic, motivating. Well look in psychology maybe we can either wait, we can put this on in your book into the Arctic.

3 [00:49:52] In the site there's a formula for satisfaction and the foreman up for satisfaction. It's very simple. Satisfaction is the reality. You buy it, your expectations. Why is this important? You can always increase reality and when you run fast you can try to run faster.

3 [00:50:14] Or when you fly alone long flights you can try to add some kilometers or you also can reduce your expectations and then you're also happy. Um, the funny thing is when we talk now about you and the Corona, I think Corona positives that Caroma is it shakes or it uses all our expectations.

3 [00:50:39] Yes, definitely. A lot of people, they lose their crops, they lose a lot of money, but in the same time they reduced their expectations way more. So we the and they have more satisfaction. When when you ask athlete or I often ask businessman, what's your satisfaction in percentage?

3 [00:51:03] Then they tell me 85 or 70, and then you can really start working. What do you want? Do you want to increase reality, which will be endless game in your life? Cause there's always someone who is more, you get greedy or do you want to go and think about your expectations?

3 [00:51:24] For example, what was your dream when you've been a small boy? And this is by rich people more satisfied than poor because satisfaction is only relative. It's not like a stone which is there. It's, it's something divided by something else. If you have three millions but you expect for you, you're not happy.

3 [00:51:47] And if you're very poor in Africa, you got one kilo rise, you're very happy. And maybe when I can add something, I think that will be a lot of pain coming with her owner. There will be, uh, really, uh, to NAMI of, of troppers but I think something would be good and this is that I'm a world has time to think about this relation, um, has to to time to think about what is reality and what are the expectations and how can we as a world continue to bring this in a good balance.

2 [00:52:26] Yeah. And in a sense it's, it's on the scale of the last world war because pretty much everybody is involved and it's even more dramatic than the last world war because everybody is involved. Doesn't matter where you live in the world right now.

2 [00:52:45] Everybody has is aware of it and is going to be effected by it. And I see it as a real possibility for a kind of a reset on humanity. It, yeah. It could be a really for me to farm is

3 [00:53:00] that some, they vary. A lot of funders are wrong. For me it's very interesting to see that something with the house of death people will come to, I'm a world, but a lot of families are happy and in a good state. Hmm. Because they focus on the things which are important and they don't cheat at a hunt or wrong behind things, which has no well have no value.

2 [00:53:30] So let, let me ask you what may seem like a ridiculous question, but this is something that I constantly struggle with, with flying. It gives me so much joy. Uh, the X Alps is up there with, you know, the expedition I did in Alaska in terms of just pure fun.

2 [00:53:53] It, it, I don't know how to have that kind of fun in any other way. It's the intensity, the training, the anticipation being with my team. It, it just, it's outrageous. And yet it's so selfish and it's okay. That's more and more, that's always been the trip for me to try to get over to the other side.

2 [00:54:19] That's, that's what has Ben tripping me up. It's incredibly selfish endeavor at the same time. So in a sense it lacks purpose.

3 [00:54:32] Yeah. And I think, I mean, for me, these are two questions. One is what do you allow yourself, but what do you allow yourself to say? I, I take the right to play. Mm Hmm. This I think is a question you can ask yourself or maybe it's different if you have no kids or if you bought kind of responsibility.

3 [00:54:58] Do I have, is my purpose in life to play or is my purpose in life to produce something? I think this is one thing and I think 10 fish somehow here in Switzerland being equal and selfish,

2 [00:55:14] it's

3 [00:55:15] something negative. I see this totally different for me. It's interesting when you sit in the airplane and they say that oxygen masks fall down. If there is a problem with the pressure, you have to put it on first yourself. Cause if you don't have oxygen, um, I think as soon or as low as if everyone is happy on this planet and taking on the oxygen mask first as long they are enough oxygen masks, then this is a very positive way of being selfish.

3 [00:55:55] The point is if you do something for your choice on the cost of others, but I think if you run to Alaska and if you have, they're a happy time and no one is paying the cost for you. If you can be there, go for it. It's going to make the world a better place.

2 [00:56:15] Perfect. I love it. Thomas how does chrigel at this stage he's won five.

3 [00:56:24] And I'm just wondering from the, the mental aspect, how does he approach the next one? I, I asked, I asked him this, you know, is there more pressure on him or less, you know, now that he's won so many, but is that, let me ask it a different way.

3 [00:56:46] Is it harder or easier for him to stay motivated given he's won five? Um, I think at six this morning he taught me the next reefy wins one more. It would be seven. And this book be a nice number until you start thinking about how to get to the seven. You're right. It's six era. That's right.

3 [00:57:06] Jesus. Holy Kelly. Red doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I think you don't get happy by chasing the numbers. It has to be something else. Um, I think, um, if it's, it's, it will be a good question for him. The next let's say the next year to find out what is my purpose in this, in this game.

3 [00:57:31] And they also, I think it would be also nice ones to be in a situation to be a real master. You also have to be in a situation where you have to bounce back. I also think this, for me, a good sport man is not someone who is always winning. For me someone is also good who can handle a difficult situation or a place number two in a very good way.

3 [00:57:58] And I think what he shows for me it's not, but he, he has good ranking. He shows me that he has a good mindset and a good performance and you're hearing in Switzerland it's, it's also I think a big dif or difficult to make a living out of paragliding.

3 [00:58:19] And it only works when you are either a test pilot or a tandem pilot or if you can make career with sponsors and for that life, um, you'll have to you, it's a, it's, it's a nice stage to take part in AIX apps. How do you approach weaknesses in, in the one day philosophy?

3 [00:58:43] Um, weakness? Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's a good point. I think it's, I don't have the image that someone should have no weaknesses. I think it's about facing reality. See, see what are the facts. Everyone has weaknesses. The question is what do you do with your strength?

3 [00:59:04] And if you also try to spend all your energy to read, use your weaknesses, then you get average. I think you have to accept your weaknesses, learn to handle it, and really focus on your strengths and cause if, if you have some strengths which are really strong, then you will be outstanding there.

3 [00:59:28] And if you look to people in the world, which hat possibility to, to be some way of very good, let's say in music or in in arc or sports. No one asking them if they can spare the birth right or if they can speak how many languages or how they handled their weaknesses.

3 [00:59:52] If I, I'm, I'm the one who he will really focus on the strengths and tries to make them strong. Huh. What did the other side for me, it's very interesting. His anger, I think anger is a very good thing. Cause if you understand what makes you angry, you'll learn a lot about your needs.

3 [01:00:14] And if you know you meet, you will find ways to achieve them. And people are trying always to be smart and trying to be polished and not showing anger or emotion. I think this is just a cover story. You have to be honest, you have to understand what makes you proud, but also what makes you angry.

3 [01:00:35] And then you, you can grow as a personality.

2 [01:00:40] If we could rewind the clock and, and let's just place me at, I stayed in Europe after the X Alps for almost two months with my family and we were, it doesn't matter where we were in Northern Italy and you know, I was just struggling with the, just back into the real world, I guess is what we call it.

2 [01:01:06] If I had come to you then it just said Thomas site, um, I'm struggling after this one. I, you know, I, I really miss the race. I miss, I miss my team. Uh, I've got all this stress with the business and I missed the training. And so I don't, I don't feel as physical as I was where, where would we start?

3 [01:01:30] I would say you're telling me a lot of things you don't want or which are not good, what do you want? And then what would you say?

2 [01:01:40] I would say I have been training and working at this for months and months and months and months. And this is a perfect opportunity right now to relax and stop worrying and be with your family.

3 [01:01:53] Okay. And then I would maybe say, uh, on a scale from one to 10 then this, you relax when Charlie and have a good time with family and one is you're somehow unhappy.

2 [01:02:05] Gotcha. Gotcha. I would be a three or a two. I go, okay. It works. Maybe it could be that if, when stuff like this or it could be stopped totally different, like saying,

3 [01:02:20] Hey, uh, what is the good thing on this problem? Well, what are the benefits of being down? Um, some somehow in like in a transition between, in the airport between two planes. Well, just a quick thing. What did that, what the hell out of June it is now and then what would you say?

2 [01:02:41] Yeah, you have time. You have a place to be calm. It's yeah, you have, you have a moment to relax. Yeah. Again,

3 [01:02:50] yeah, but then you have a very nice circumstances and very nice ingredients for a good time. It would start some that somehow like this and you do take part 21 X house.

2 [01:03:04] I don't know this. This would be a fun thing to explore with you.

3 [01:03:10] Okay. If you will take part into 21 you have my phone number after 21 you can do two things. You can say when you prepared the 21 you prepare three chapters, preparation, race and the trays and during the preparation you also start thinking, what do I do in August and September 21 how how best this look is time look good, what a book or can be nice.

3 [01:03:42] Then this could be one thing or the other thing. You call me by then and then we will find this.

2 [01:03:49] I like it. I like it. I think that's, that's often what we see, isn't it on a global scale post-war, we don't think about the post enough. You think about the preparation, you think about the, the, the, the war itself, but you don't think about how you're going to put things back together. And we have to think about all the stages.

2 [01:04:12] This is a quick department

3 [01:04:13] and I think one thing is very interesting. Someone who is a beginner, he's just doing them something. Let's say a paragliding pilot who is a beginner. He goes, paragliding some who is that expert? He asks preparation to it and he prepares the flight.

3 [01:04:37] He spends the evening looking to the weather forecast and uh, thinking about what do I do? Then he does the fight and some one in every discipline, in business and in sport and in life and in heart, who is real expert, a real professional.

3 [01:04:58] He makes preparation. He makes the thing, it takes time to reflect. Um, I see in older, if you want to understand, if someone is really an expert in them thing, you can also look what does he do after it? And you look to very good artists after the show.

3 [01:05:22] They drink a beer or a coffee and look what was good. And if you look too good medicine paper after it day, go to the Excel sheet and put in notes. And if you look to very good sailors, they go and they clean the boat and they make some notes what they will change to the next thing. And I often think that competition or that the moment you win and get the prize in the competition, this is not the end of the project.

3 [01:05:49] The end of the project is maybe when every one of your sponsors has that hand signed letter and if you have a good presentation and if you analyzed that the race. So this is something I really can recommend to, to, to really start with the end in mind and say it's finished when, when we've learned something out of it.

3 [01:06:11] Mmm.

2 [01:06:12] Yeah. I liked that. To have a kind of a finality to have something you're working towards beyond the race that just puts a exclamation point on it. It's done now.

3 [01:06:23] Good.

2 [01:06:24] Hmm. I like that. Thomas what thought would you like to leave our audience with when they're thinking about all these tools that you've been able to enlighten us with a little bit? W w what? I'm not gonna ask you to give any advice, but would you like to have won that fight?

2 [01:06:49] But I can give you an advice.

3 [01:06:52] Okay. I real, I have no clue who is listening right now. But I think yes, if once one to have an advice, one is they're really big picture take one's time in your career or in your hobby or your passion to have a look on the big picture.

3 [01:07:13] It can be 1st of January or it can be the day of the year, 40 or 50 birthday. And think once. If you have grand kids and if you're all happy and you and your kids have kids, what would you like to tell them? What you have done, how you have done it'd be up.

3 [01:07:36] Do you have not done what your values you've been that been like stars for orienteering through life. And I think if you have this very, very big picture, what, what do I want to tell him? The very end it will make the questions you have today, it will make them very simple.

3 [01:07:57] And I think in when you're old and telling your grandkids about your life, it's absolutely not in important what you answered in this email you have in front of you or if you call back or not. And I think these big picture can help you, uh, really love to find out what are my values and what is the really, really big picture.

3 [01:08:19] Because sailing in the night and the ocean for me is very interesting. If you look to the compass or the GPS, the steering is often very nervous. Um, if you have a clear night and you can see the stars you did, you did the boat is very nice.

3 [01:08:39] Also, if the, um, the waves are choppy because the fixed point you're orienteering is far away. And I think this, this can be an hour twice. I can really recommend everyone to take one's time or to write it down or just a very big picture. And the other thing is often people in sports or in business, when it comes to performance, they think goals should be smart.

3 [01:09:09] Everyone learns. It should be smart. But I think there some very important thing is missing. And that's the fun. I think this the second part twice. How can you add fun to your goals? Because often goals are about discipline, about working hard, about trying more, uh, being tough.

3 [01:09:34] And if you think, what, what, how can be fun? For example, power kosher by once had this as a, as a, as a quote on his Vario. How much fun is it right now? And I think this can also be an otherwise I can give in generally if you can add fun to something, you, you have discipline, you have purpose, you want to achieve it.

3 [01:10:00] But if you can't do it with a smile, uh, you, you went with,

2 [01:10:04] Hmm, I love it. I love it. Thomas what a treasure and what a treat. Thank you so much for sharing these thoughts and I am very thankful that yes, I do have your number now expect to call here at some point. And, but thank you for sharing all of this and thank you for the time you've given to our community, not just on this podcast but just our community in general over all these years and your relationship with, with chrigel and being able to watch you to operate was wasn't as remarkable.

2 [01:10:38] But thank you very much.

3 [01:10:40] Thank you very much for your time and thank you for sharing your honest personal situation and being the example for the one to 10 thing. And uh, I hope everyone who had listening to this can add something or can bring something from his nature and a life to the current challenges we are facing all and um, I wish that everyone can be his best.

2 [01:11:08] Thank you so much for coming on the show tonight.

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0 [01:11:38] This show does take a lot of time, a lot of editing, lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind the scenes costs. So if you can support us financially, all we've ever asked for is about a show and you can do that through a one time donation through PayPal or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out. We put a new show out every two weeks.

0 [01:11:58] So for example, if you did a buck a show and every two weeks it'd be about $25 a year. So way cheaper than a magazine subscription. And it makes all of this possible. I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors. We get asked about that, uh, pretty frequently. But I wrote a whole bunch of different reasons, which I've said many times on the show. I don't want to do that and I don't like to having that stuff at the front of the show.

0 [01:12:20] And I also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people and these are just our opinions, but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars. I think that's a pretty toxic business model. So I hope you dig that. Um, you can support us. If you go to Cloudbase mayhem.com you can find the places to have support. You can do it through patrion.com forward slash Cloudbase mayhem.

0 [01:12:42] If you want a recurring subscription, you can also do that directly through the website. We tried to make it really easy and that will give you access to all the bonus material, a little video cast that we do and extra little, uh, nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show. But we feel like you should here. We don't put any of that behind a paywall. If you can't afford to support us, then just let me know and I'll set you up with an account.

0 [01:13:06] Of course, there'll be lifetime and hopefully in your being in a position someday to be able to support us. But you'll find out that on the website, uh, all of you who have supported us or even joined our newsletter or bought Cloudbase, mayhem merchandise tee shirts or hats or anything, you should be all set up. You should have an account and you should be able to access all that bonus material now, thank you so much for listening.

0 [01:13:29] I really appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next show. Thank you.