Episode 106- Your Questions answered (Bruce Goldsmith, Max Jeanpierre, Reavis Sutphin-Gray…)

Gavin McClurg flying near Denali during the Alaska paragliding traverse. Photo Jody MacDonald

This is another Ask Me Anything show that we typically release as bonus content but we got so many great questions that cover such a wide range of topics we’ve decided to release it as a regular show and for this one I went out to the experts to get the answers. Max Jeanpierre, a legendary comp pilot and designer at Kortel Designs answers several harness design questions (stability vs instability, seat board vs hammock, pod vs seat, lightweight gear and safety, etc.); Bruce Goldsmith (BGD) takes on the many disadvantages lighter pilots have and their attempts to solve it with the new “weightless” competitions and what they’ve learned trying to solve this ongoing issue. Bruce then answers a wide range of wing and line questions that came in:  EN certification and potential constraints to design; material science and what it means for keeping your wing in trim (some great tips here!) and what it all means for the longevity and performance of your wing; Reavis Sutphin-Gray takes on weather tips for newer pilots trying to fly in areas with limited weather resources; and we answer a question we get a lot- when am I ready to fly a higher performance wing?

This one is loaded with great information regardless of your ability. Please enjoy and keep sending your questions!

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Show Notes:

  • When is it time to move up to a hotter wing with more performance?
  • Max Jeanpierre talks trying to find the sweet spot in Harness Design between stability and instability
  • Bruce Goldsmith takes on weight and the disadvantage of being small
  • Bruce Goldsmith and the “weightless” competitions and what they’ve learned.
  • Bruce Goldsmith takes on wing design, fabrics and porosity, line shrinkage, rib strength, trimming tricks, when to trim…
  • Bruce Goldsmith and line stretch
  • Bruce Goldsmith takes on EN Testing and if certification is helping or holding back design
  • Reavis Sutphin-Gray takes on weather forecasting for achieving soaring (thermal) flying
  • Max Jeanpierre takes on the advantages/ disadvantages of flying a pod vs seat harness and the inherent potential risks of flying a pod (as well as some of the risks of flying a seat harness you might not have considered).
  • Max Jeanpierre and the compromise of light weight gear

Mentioned in this episode:

Max Jeanpierre, Kortel Designs, Paty Letona, Bruce Goldsmith, Aaron Beck, Blake Pelton, Global Rescue, Reavis Sutphin-Gray, Cross Country Magazine, Ken Hudonjorgensen, Niviuk, Bruce Goldsmith Designs, Josh Cohn, Isabella Messenger, Tom Payne, Chris Galli, XCSkies, Windy.com



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Transcript

Episode 106- Your Questions answered (Bruce Goldsmith, Max Jeanpierre, Reavis Sutphin-Gray)

00:00:17 - 00:05:07

Hi there everybody. Welcome to a very special episode of the cloud-based mayhem. This is an ask me anything show which we usually release as a bonus but there were so many questions and so much great information that I just don't want it to want it to get it out there so we're going to release this as a regular show and I got a lot of help for this one. I would just recently down in Argentina for the World Cup and I sat down with Max jean-pierre because we had some harnessed questions that were way beyond my knowledge and he's a designer for courtel in legendary pilot in the game of very very very long time and a lot of flying so he had some great answers their stuff that I didn't know about about harms design. Janika wine really valuable. We we talk a lot about wing design and trying to make COP flying fair for smaller pilots known for many many many years that bigger wings are just faster and they glide better and so reached out to Bruce Goldsmith with Bruce Goldsmith designs. Who's also been on the podcast in the past To dive into all of that he just had a great article was just came out in the last issue across country about his weightless cops and how they're trying to solve this problem but he wrote about it originally back in two thousand three so this is obviously something. We're still dealing with fascinating subject. And we also I also went out to Bruce for a bunch of questions that came in from a couple of friends of mine. Aaron in back in Mac and Blake Shelton down in Utah about Brosse tests and Fabrics and lines and dirt and care and trimming and all that also was beyond my knowledge. So Bruce really filled in that gap really well reached out revenues down the World Cup as well for some weather questions since from a couple of pretty newer pilots who are trying to get some out in Mongolia. Who stationed out there? And they're trying to figure out how to find good weather and use it to their advantage to. They're not just taking sledders but getting into their first real thermal flying and so that was pretty fascinating gear and progression from James Friend of mine. Nine and When you should move up to the next this is a subject? That comes up a lot on the mayhem. But I take on that one when you should move up. And when you when you when you're ready to move up and a lot more so this one super dance there's a lot of great information from a lot of different folks some great questions hanging in there going to really enjoy it I up a little a bit of housekeeping before we get to the show so huge bump in global rescue sign ups after. I've been kind of pushing the insurance side of things and that's pretty bad accidents Schnitzer Sport and people have come up with sometimes six figures to get folks home so thank you for paying attention to that if you're still if you're traveling. This winter really updated the article. I put up on the website. If you just go to cloud base may dot com and put in the search term insurance that she'd have you covered so insurance for cops if you're going to fly cops and insurance for travel medical repatriation injury. It's all there. It's pretty dense. It's in everything you need for it. What happens if you press your SOS on your your spot and getting home and not footing the bill for it so very very very important if you are traveling to go fly England paragliding otherwise you're participating in this sport? Don't think it's not going to happen. You don't let this fall on your family your friends so check that out again. CLOUD-BASED MA'AM DOT COM and put in the search term insurance. You'll see the insurance. You know something like it insurance. Sorry covered and read that article as all the links and it will take you to the right places and get you the right spot. You have any questions on that or any updates as always feel free to reach out to me and the other bit housekeeping. Put in the front end of this show is lot of feet. A lot of people are still having trouble with creating their account is becoming a subscriber ever so you have access to all the bonus content. We're going to be putting out miles. My editor has been super busy the last few months so we haven't been able to get to the promised the bonus content with the third installment of the Alps interviews. I did after the race and then I didn't recording a few weeks back down at the red rocks line. Can I never say his name right on wing logistics which was terrific so both those will be coming out before Christmas. I WanNa make sure you all have access to that if fierce subscriber in through Patriot if your financial subscriber supporter of the show you automatically have an account and should be all set up. If you don't don't if you haven't figured that out then send me an email and I'll make sure you do but you are all subscribers just by being listeners get the newsletter if you bought a t shirt or hat through the store door. If you've had any kind of email with me than I have tried to set everybody up.


00:05:07 - 00:10:00

I don't WANNA put anything behind a paywall. Aw hopefully someday. If you're in a position where you can't financially support us you'll do so but in the meantime I wanna make this content available for everybody so whether so you support us at about the show which is always ask for or something else you are. Subscriber will be one for life. And if you don't count or if you haven't figured that out just reach out to Email through the website. And Get y'all set up and then hopefully someday you're making money where you can send us about show that would be great. Helps cover all of our costs and I appreciate she did so with. That said. Please enjoy this great. Ask Me anything show again. We've got some fantastic questions. There's a lot here for every level pilot. Enjoy okay first question in this asked me anything show came from a friend James About. When are you ready to jump up to more advanced gear? He was talking about wings. But I think this certainly fits for everything. This is a topic that we've talked a lot about on the show and is something that that I see way too. Many people doing too often is moving up to hotter Wang's before they're ready so the question is heard. You mentioned on. Several occasions observed pilots progressing too fast. Perhaps even hopping onto gear. Well beyond their skill. Set making the jump from Segal. Added to liners at me raising raising my eyebrows. The first time I got into high wind on the mountain and he got plucked have since remedy my own shortcomings by spending some solid time on Nice Grassy Training Hill. I'm doing very well on the new kit though. That said of her D. mentioned yourself progressing very quickly. The question is how do you how does one know when it's time to push into higher performance gear before. Actually I'm doing it. How did you gauge it yourself? There has to be some level of into the unknown. This involved. Where we'd always on school gliders so just as an amusing musings start to this whole conversation? Give you the quick rundown on what I did which is not recommended but in two thousand twelve. I'd gotten off the boat late in two thousand eleven Took I started taking on period and really seriously so that spring spent much time in Turkey with Jockey Training Acro- will he was doing this. IV courses out there but training acro-. Because I'd done a lot of. Save at that point had reasonable than ours. But certainly no expert in anything and I was flying for the most part for axios flying the navy. Arctic three you believe at the time it was two three and so did these courses with him and then started training. Really a lot with Bruce. My support in the first couple of excerpts in Europe that you're so was flying a lot whine a lot in the Alps and was perfectly happy on the Arctic which enc. And then that July I did my first out in Chilean was the Schwinn open an and That went pretty well and I really enjoyed it. Went Back to the back catrine Noel to fly the rest of the summer and then got a wildcard for the POW in Sun Valley. where I live now live? And that's where I was moving so a friend of mine that was running that comp a new house moving out here and Hansen wild card spots and Gimme one and that was kind of early the the COMP was mid August. That was early August when I found out about this and I just panicked governor even flown a D.. Let alone on accomplishing so. I contacted nick and they were kind enough to they had an ice beak was one of the super final. I speaks from that year. That was one that I speak six came out and they shipped me one and I went flew the ice peak six. So this is you know by. Today's standards are pretty tame calming but it was it was D- decoupling back in those days and so I I am I said I'd Never Flown D so the day before the cops had my first flight here with Nate Scales and flew flu the iceberg six for the first time era and then I flew in the World Cup and so that was uber. Exciting to fly accomplishing my I to lighter in San Valley which is pretty power out and it all went find. Those was fantastic. But that was certainly what James is talking about. That was kind of a major sure jump and again not something I would recommend but the answer to the question is I always compared this with kayaking. Young beyond you're not really ready to jump up to a class four river until you're hitting every Eddie and basically class three is becoming boring. You're you're you're just owning a class three river. Then you're ready to push into you know lower level class war stuff same thing with classifieds once your nail in every Eddie in class four. You're you're not.


00:10:01 - 00:15:02

You're not spending much time upside down. And you're not coming out of your boat and you're not pull your skirt and you're ready probably for classify if you know you want it and and you feel really ready but basically you're pushing the boat and your paddle skills and everything to the absolute limit at the level your ad and then you're ready to come up. I think the same thing applies in paragliding when you're using the full range of your speed Bar If you're understanding how to fly sees the APP you're on a three letter and you're or either on A. B. or C. Wing. And you're really you're using it to its maximum potential. What it was built for? And you feel like you just got it. I The base minimum. I always feel like is at least one hundred hours a year. You know if you're getting the hours you're doing a yearly. Siv you've done tunstall's that doesn't even make your heart rate go up and you're really using the full range of the wing So you're not quarter Bar Kinda get scared but you're using the full all ranks of the bar and you know you're doing a lot of ground ailing and your mailing your launches and landings and you're not getting clocked in you're not blowing either then then you're ready to step up and a lot of it's just do you want to do and ask yourself. Do you need that extra perform performance. Ah Do you want it do you. Do you want the less passive safety and you want the extra performance. So there's more to it than that but I think that's a pretty good way to approach that the problem I see and I really saw it last year. A lot in comps. Is You know people are. They're not getting hours and they go to cops and they get dusted they don't get the glides and they just blame at one hundred percent on the wing and that's certainly I know a better. Her higher aspect wing is GonNa make different absolutely. But there's way more things you can do. You know we see this all the time with the huge triangles. That are being flown in the Alps. CBS every summer on guys. Bye guys burning pestle on NBC. That are doing monster flights on N. B. Wings so There's a lot of other things you you can and should be doing the increase your performance before you stop last year at the Minorca. Josh Kohn our best com compiler aber here in the United States decided. He wasn't really getting the hours. I mean this guy has done a lot Cobb. Since he was sixteen back in the mid nineties and nationals and he's done he's won tacit PBS's and one P one beat EMC so he he decided he just wasn't getting hours. Just had a little baby and step down to. I think it was an ozone Omega x out so no an Ian d but Far far below the performance of NGOs and and you know the CCC gliders and we had a really hard time shaking him all week so You know he was right there. You would be a little bit behind on every glide in the names right there with every climate make better decisions Than you know most of the pilots were on the CCC gliders so there you go next one got a really good question about harness design instability. So I didn't know the answer to this and the answers really fascinating. One of the guys racing down at the World Cup is Max jean-pierre my partner Cortel and Ben a longtime designer there and very longtime pilot in Bibi pilot and and Co Pilot in really understands flying in really understands harnesses. So here's the answer to these Great Harness questions both both when it comes to stability and what Horace Manufacturers are trying to accomplish when they had to cut hit the sweet spot between stability and instability for when you're climbing and gliding and also when we should think about or when you're initially ready to go from a C.. Harnessed to a pod harnesses harness and and the advantage disadvantage risks inherent therein enjoy design increasing. Your Hollis a actually for lighting Two different things. For honest we need stable certain KSM unstable in another one and we have to deal with to act which opposite and we have to find the balance according to some people which is going to use dishonest so being honest abuse fee we need the rain still haunt us giving him confidence choice of flight. ANZELMO you get advanced new piloting skills sumo and stabile somehow sumo stable.


00:15:02 - 00:20:27

You needs of your honest to be because you need to. It's necessary to get to the mall lively dynamic connoisseur When you start summoning was weight? Shifting is one of the assembly you just done by pulling brake rekindle that she really shouldn't John in are- won't be re if you or someone so it's always a matter of compromise and it's easier to understand if you go seek stream for example competition that's for for sure we go. We need a really stable harness because one of the key of the lighting and for gliding. You need you Ashcroft kind of blessed Jaanus to be stable I mean to be really compact feeling feeling full of violence because glider is something which she's really. You Spun Malzahn than metals. And when you fly in lively air both swing to do not. I always encounter the same turbulence he's in an entity so and everybody you saipa guiding you can knows the feeding you up to wingtips. Moving an and transmitting some movement violent. And you need. You need to harness to be stable because you tried right to glide straight glider as an ability for snitching for finding the right bus Almaz and we won't sit lighter. doozy's trump and ways to stable harness all those disorder movement went on the Rolex of the movement issue too. Who and stupid almond honest will be amplified is applied? It or zoo will be totally lost because of pilots will try to compass cheer controls movement and full whole also best lied we need to let Hamas Luby's job without weasels indifference during for survival. Too unstable one will am in a negative pilot will improvise movement and obviously would have stopped flagging stopped making towns and lose energy because you start moving or this momentous moss not so it's Yanni to las nurtured and by looked controlling Tula too much movement by conscious tearing all this movement will lose sniffing ability glider US naturally so jet and after STOA glide. You Need Ketchup. Somali and fulsomely. You need to harness which she's dynamite enough for being performance and as those two different moment of flight of needs opposite quantity of Zana's in glide straight fight UNIDOs table one for C. N.. Himself all you need lively dynamic costs and those two are Meta which was was it finally as a designer we choose to gliding. We have to leave yet. Most of the designer are to make a really stupid Tibbett honest because we're losing much more. We unstable honest straight by then so lack of timing and That's why we love the system any beret stew which allows you to have a respectable Hanis instead fight and unluck and the reason. Why are you in Prague? Lighting performance wants comes through from lighter own mechanical prompters between those parameters these this islet overseas and by having those stippled on us for long fight. Your this was saved pilots and and after some house or the otas saved to invite sense to a stable honest uh-huh long transition. We will be a day of performance because less tired who did better decision on defense medal so famous retire and also Sichuan well the same reason making a choice and prevent you from going neuron face the next question down at in Argentina.


00:20:27 - 00:25:09

I spent some time with Patty Latina. Great pilot pilot from Mexico. WHO IS I? Don't know how how much she but she's very small and she'd been flying for a long time and has been on the World Cup for a long time that she had huge flights Atapattu down the surtout. Brazil super accomplished pilot but like all small pilots on the World Roku is incredibly frustrated because flying excess weighing or smaller wings. You are crippled by performance on many many different levels so she wanted me any to bring this up on the podcasts. We talked about a little bit with Isabella Messenger a couple years ago and it's a real problem. It's not fair and weight matters. So I went out to Bruce Goldsmith. The desire for BG D to Ask this question while the question is About weight on Especially in competition and a this is a subject have been going on the bell for maybe twenty years now now and There's little no doubts. A tool the weights does affect performance on paragliders quite a lot It's actually not a one-sided one-sided weight or being heavyweights is an advantage for gliding and speed and flying fast and flying lights lights isn't advantage in very very weak conditions but unfortunately competition has changed formats over the last few years become more about racing foster in strong conditions so this is completely pushed out older. Lightweight pilots from competition When I used to fly competitions there was a kind of balance between weakened the strong conditions? But now it's really gone very strongly on the side of flying in strong racing conditions. The time I- Donahue if you agree with that absolutely I mean I. I'm excited to be talking about this. And it's just so timely because your article came out and You sent me a bunch of notes from your two thousand three article and it was interesting to hear you say that you know very little has changed. I mean obviously gliders have changed a ton but the advantages manages are all still there for this is something we talk about it every single competition but I really feel for I had this great podcast with Isabella Messenger. The couple of years back in and she was asked. You know we were talking about this this way issue and assembly and I'm really small and she goes come. Okay how much do you weigh. Yeah you know seventy-eight KGB's I'm built like wombat She said Yeah. Okay so I'm fifty KGB's and You know I mean part of. It's just so hard to even and get an extra small Wang from most of the manufacturers so I just really feel for the people that are light in these girls that are. Just they're going to every recom- and you know where they where you see. How good they are is when the conditions are are really light and they might get the world's Petra was the only one that got the goal and she was a struggling hard super. Windy Day you know against the wind she you know she's obviously these girls are really good and they just they don't get it's not fair. Yeah I mean the problem. I think goes a lot deeper than we realize because when people I mean people liked to do what what they excel at what they do welling set. You're allowed people. you start doing competitions and the heavy guy's GonNa stop winning on the light ones or not and so the heavy guys carry on flying cycle petitions and you get in the end just a whole lot of heavy guiso flying competitions and the light people just filtered out rights from the very first competition they do and and so. I think that's why there's really not so much pressure to do something about that because already in a fifty percent of the pilots have already been cut out. They've just given up now. Tom Paine talked about that once they ban the open he was totally disinterested open. Open classes the That at least gave the lighter folks a chance in terms of you know flying pro does different type stuff but but let let let's stay on the subject here. Let I. I love your article because you tapped kind of the main reasons. There are the differences but I thought we just take a deeper dive on some of the things you mentioned like certification safety and the percent What are the advantages? How much is it did a detailed analysis of the performance differences Wednesday's chest based on weight surface area lines? Faxes like that that you can easily calculate and we calculated that a trim speech.


00:25:10 - 00:30:07

The heavyweight pilot has a two percent glider advantage over the lightweight pilot. And that's that's talking about the extremes from extra small to extra lodge and full top speed. You're talking about a five percent advantage folder till the heavyweight pilots. So that's huge in Detroit. A huge and this is interesting that it ties into what we've been trying in the whiteness. That the last night is competition. We we tried to do a a handicap system gave two and a half percentage points for every ten kilos so point two five cookie lower if you like so oh you know between a small pot at large. They could attempt sent advantage when we ran the whole competition than we had a lot of fifty Kina pilots one hundred ten Keita pundits. We could see that this was just far away from being enough. You know ten percent points had to be more like fifty percents points. It was that big. It was that big. And so now I've been ready going back and trying to rethink the whole weightless thing because you know. Obviously you become really give fifty percent of the points to the lightweight pilots but also the like my podcast was saying they would just they've they felt discouraged because they could never lied because Liaoning is exciting. You know yeah and I mean all of us a felt this if we're if you're if you're dropped off the back at the start it's two things happen one. It's psychologically ecologically really tough and then you start. Typically most pilots will just add mistakes. Then you start trying to raise too fast and then you bomb out. But it's just. It's psychologically psychologically really discouraging. Yes No What we're GONNA try and do is is a new concept of the next witness? IS WE WANNA try and do turn points with different diameters. Though he'd have a ten point with a smaller diameter for the heavier pilots and a larger diameter folded alive with pilots and then the task setting committee will be able to use those ten points when they feel. It's when they feel that it's a good idea so it's going to be very very experimental thing but what it means. Is that every time point. Possibly at every time point the lightweight pilots will get a little boost of maybe five hundred meters or up to up to one kilometre So this could really make the lightweight pilots lead out which is what we have been missing the last two white this cope Titians yeah and The does does the algorithm needs to be quite a bit more complex as well in terms in instead of two percent if each ten k. g. could be some kind of maybe sliding scale or guest. These are all kinds of things. You're thinking about yet while the real problem I'm we found this the the small that Suffo- when this turbulent air and hedwig strong wind and because there's also very technical reasons for by this but you could very easily imagine it. The sheriff's a small a small pilot is half the size of a big cut. And so if you've got a small pilot hitting acids of turbulence which can say you know one hundred cubic meters for example. Then you've got the big pile hitting inside. Piece of tablets is only half the size for him so not to me. It's going to affect him. lesage going to knock him around less. He's GonNa get collapses it's GonNa Pitch Glide Alaska S. so it just affects him last. You know these adverse conditions so we really saw in those in those difficult headwind conditions and headwind turbulence the small pilot. She couldn't get through blocked by the strong wind and strong turbans uh-huh and so it's very difficult when any score ring system to take that into account because it just depends on the task and the conditions during the time circus starts getting tricky and he started imagining all the whining that would be going on at like. PW Sea level. You don't but I mean we have to do something because it really isn't fair it. Let's take us through all the things that do affect it. I I love your thoughts on Ilmenite your thoughts but just the reality of you know that most wings are your you build a wing From your perspective. You know at the at Bruce Goldsmith designed you're gonNA build a wing at say the medium size and everything else gets scaled on that. But you don't scale at the excess is A. It's GONNA be way harder to get it passed so you've got a slow it down you got to change it. You gotTa Make It. So it's GonNa be easier to certify because otherwise it wouldn't pass a large join us but it's also things like the fabric in the lines. Everything gets scaled. But it's not like the fabric gets thinner thing. That's the the lines don't get scaled Nights but they don't get scaled in size in size because nobody in the lab tests on the large player.


00:30:07 - 00:35:10

And then you use the same lines for all the other sizes so this means that a small pilot has lines which twice as big as they need to be. Sure programme load of extra track of course And this is a massive disadvantage. The bondage take us through each of those things that you talk about in in your in your two thousand three article and as well as this most recent one across country. That just came across my desk. This morning I've just the first one I went to this is great. We gotTA cover this the obstacles in front of Mesa government entity trim but Well I can give you kind of the headline one of the things you talked about. Was You know certification and safety salutes. Let's brush on that. Yeah I mean for certification did. The playing field is level Maurice maybe over the last few years as glide as get get safer and easier to get through education so there's less trimming the small riders to get them through certification so that means bear less less pain allies than they used to be. I mean it used to be the case that you couldn't get any smugglers who said occasion but now they every brand has smoker is that they can get through certification without castrating the gliders too much us so that's that's positive a positive thing and are you can i. Can I just come in real quickly are are you as a designer Are you making X.. S. Wings really just to fulfil I mean. Is there starting prophet in it at that end because there so few of them being bought enough being bought that it makes sense. I mean S. excess xl wing we actually sell more excess at wings than we do suppo- xl wings. Okay so no cool. So does that so but it may be yes because we don't do competition gladys so in these large large drives sure but just for intermediate intimated pilots. Yeah Yeah we do so more than the lodge or extra small extra launch so But the market as you say is is very small less the fact that extra small for instance it will be less than ten percent of the market probably something like six percent seven cents something like that. So it's it's pretty small. Gotcha okay and combined. That is the hardest glided certify close and it's also quite quite a bit more difficult bolt fly still still minute compared to the larger gliders corrected. They're more prone to things. No I wouldn't say onus okay now you know. The extra glider is absolutely delighted. Fly and acting flying like Makita All of the sizes and I just loved flying all yeah. I don't like to the small sizes I mean the large ones definitely glide better and they have the demo so the nest anemic that Auburn's molten ones but it's you also have when I'm flying all the different sizes in obviously it's the overloaded on the small ones under voted on the large sure. Fisher say I I mean I do fly. All sizes will fight sizes. Yeah really really liked the small small which is GonNa have flying at the moment tanking over the Max way must super well. Lot Talk About Reynolds Well Reynolds number is one of the basic characteristics of fluids and Depends on the density of the air and the size of the object moving moving through the Eh under certain characteristics which are related to so this number directly affects the size of the gliders and the speed of Gladys manolas small guidance should be flying. Slow slow on the launch of guys should be fostered to keep the same reynolds number. So is she gonNA scale them properly and somebody would be scaling. The gliders like that DOC but we don't we actually trim them all to the same speed so this really make like so much since we talked a little bit about materials but the next In your two thousand three article you went. You went quite heavily into materials Talking about the the the fabric again the lines you WANNA touch on as well. Yeah the fabric of Glider is the same full all sizes so this means that the cost this is that she lied to in relation to the glider four launch glider. And have you and stiffer for a small rider which also affects the certification when you have lights across the the actions More more soft with less inertia when you have a heavy across.


00:35:10 - 00:40:09

Aw Obviously stiffer and worse specifications so yeah cross directly effects for the safety of the link So Yeah 'cause he's not scaled lines Moscow so Yeah this all works disadvantage of floodway pilot and then one. You talked about pilot dragging. I thought this was kind of interesting. So there's a place where you go okay while the smaller pilot has finally has an advantage. But it's not it's not scale once again. Yeah right it's interesting it's Yeah it's the relationship between the surface area uh-huh compared to his weights. And you know the Seth's area is right to the square and the wages replaced it to the queue so then not proportional to each other and it's the same reason why baby gets a cold easier than a large person in a hundred kilo person because they just have so much more surface area compared to their weight so this is described that. So that's that's why babies get cold tonight. It's the same reason why small pilots have more drag because they just have more surface area so the way interesting and important point so you're the weightless calms are an attempt to hammer this out and make comps more fair. If you figure this you know the the scale out and the the algorithms out the new menu maybe make it. So we've got different. Turn points to to match wait so they don't have you know so. There isn't this huge psychological advantage as well Do you see this. Potentially being a solution at like the World Cup level or would have to stay in something like the cops that you're doing. I just imagine the the battles that would go on at the World Cup level that it it just it. Just it isn't fair and it will I would i. Would I mean I. I fly the World Cup. I would like it to be more fair. It seems like we should all be in this together. Yeah I mean I'm a regard. The Whiteness is an experimental competition where we just playing with ideas and we're coming up to the third year of the way. This is going to be soot different set of ideas that we've done to try to compensate for white a quick you guys through the history In the first year we had the weight classes we had up to eighty kilos than eighty to a hundred and then about one hundred so we had three classes and a the problem with that is that we ended up with People who from the cost below way flying twenty five cute is a balanced to get up to the top. Aw of the hundred twenty which is really against the idea. I really don't like the idea is to remove the advantage of white so if people are carrying tons of ballast you know this is just not working so that was the first year and So we went from that. Then the second year area we then had this penalty system with two and a half percentage for every ten kilos And obviously we run the competition and scored at the end. The heavy guys still on the competition and it was that there wasn't enough advantage and there was also this problem of people being discouraged because they were not leading out. The lightweight. Pilots could not compete in lead outs and have an exciting competition optician rate so now in the Sergia. We're trying this new idea of having having ten points with different radius and I know that the FAA looking at the competitions. OPTICIANS and how they go and also the POW see up until we have a solution that works and everybody satisfied satisfied with it then. Nothing's going to happen official. I love that you don't have soft That's great I mean it's a it's a touchy subject but it's been around around for for since the beginning in. It seems like it's something we have to saw. I like I also really liked the your when you have. It is the is the classes. Say The under eighty you're eighty one hundred in the over. That's what's always bothered me even about just the male female class. I mean clearly. There pilots the World Cup level. That are female. That are just awesome. You know they. They don't belong to different category. They just I would think you know they could be. It'd be more exciting for them to just compete as with everybody else. Still have the women's class but have the non and if you have like a class dependent on weight you know I'd rather race and everybody then I'd rather them race is everybody and you know get on the podium for flying well then and if we could balance it all out and make it fair just just make racing more thrilling.


00:40:09 - 00:45:13

Yeah Yeah I mean you could design out the differences between small and large gliders for instance you know by having Santa Lonzo lighters and stick colognes on the launch gliders but you could also have higher respite racial guys on the smoke. Ida's e another expectation was lodged. Ride is in many different things you could do to compensate for it but it kind of you know defeats the object crazy because everybody must wants maximum performance. So it's a shame into peon. Is the top guys by giving them a disadvantage. Basically but that's what the smaller guys have right now. Would those right now right. It's it's a tough tough one. It's nothing that's going to be easily. So that's for sure next question for my friend earn back. This is actually a whole series of questions. All that Bruce. Just take these on. But this is mostly about glider manufacturing actioning and performance and blinds and fabric and a lot of other stuff. Break feel so intesting. And so. Here's Bruce again what I would go on to the question from Blake Shelton about prostitution First of all he's asking a question about the prestige values on the upper lower surface of a wing. Not being so super important. I mean the first thing to say is is that only the prestige value of the top surface leading edge which is important obviously the ribs the full of holes anyway so they can be completely chorus but actually the Baltin stuff. He's also be completely porous. That was one manufacturer designed to glide with Mesh on the bottom surface once to it flew super. Well while I know days. We have single skin gliders which have no bones of his Co. so prostate bottom surface is completely impede the it relevant and yeah so it's just the leading edge top surface which is important. And when you're talking about the overall aging of cloth they're all three very important things that need to be considered I believe prostate second is test strength and The Instrument Bet summitter where you can measure the test drinks and a lot of my service centers have about so much I can check the the strength of the of the way and Third is will defamation that sale and up to now there's no. I'm good measure of defamation of the sale and sometimes glided stop flying just because the sale's move out of shape. MM So defamation in the sale is very important but as I said nobody's nobody's checking. There's no good measure of defamation. At the moment we have consider trying to Print a dead straight line on the RIB above say the tap and then over the is you know. Look at the defamation of that line signed to see to see how far Xining goes paps. That could be a measure of of defamation but Yeah we haven't actually got around to doing that. Maybe doing that one day. Do you have any kind of rules of thumb on this type of thing when it comes to light weight. gliders versus standard entered when you're using lightweight cloth is is is a usable lifespan of a wing. Half or is it eighty hours a hundred and fifty hours. Is it You know is it close to the same. I know I realize things depend on care and other things but You know are you. Are you seeing that you know that deformation happened much earlier. In my weight wings defy it depends a huge around on the structure of the wing. And if you have have the same glider with the same structure but while we'd lightweight one no lightweight than you might difference but some of the light we glide is also have less structure in them as well to make the light. Of course you know. They're for hiking on mountains. All the rest of it and I think if you if the structure is less completes as well as the cloth being lighter as well then you ought to see shorter life in the glider but it depends how extreme lightweights waits the lightweight glider is so as saying just the cost is only one consideration of the structure is probably more potent than the cloth in Assam lights have Very good support inside whereas other gliders are actually relying on the torsion of the cloth to keep the glider in shape God is that the torsion of cloth of the ones that are gonna get deformed out of shape with age whereas you can have another glided with the same cloth breath but because the structure is better the cloth.


00:45:13 - 00:50:04

The glider won't go out of shape on Boo Carol Flying Nanga even though it has the same pulse that the same the deformations in it. So it's yeah it's it's not something you can isolate ready to the call from the glider. The same goes for prostate as well. Some glide is cannot withstand Lopresti on the leading edge where other light is can have really poorest cloth and have no problem with tool like a lot of jumping shoots have the very poorest close just because it reduces the opening coming short but they don't have the problem even though they're using porous cross. Let's hope so. So again. You know the process depends a law on the actual Schwab's on at the wing. It's not just the question of if you have low prestige gliders going to be dangerous. It's not as simple as that. That that internal Construction his his second his latter part of this questions about rib condition and rib strength. I mean obviously if you have free just to take it simply enough you have four rows blinds than the load inside. The rips is going to be less than if you have three rows of vines to response minds because there's just the big distance between the lines and so the structure has to do a lot more to keep the glider in shape and that's that's Oh hang on a simple a simple level you know just in the number of lines but obviously the design is much more complicated than that includes the diving ribs and now the orientation of the cloth within the ribs and within the ribs and on the top sales. So it's it's It's a whole package and makes a huge age difference to how the Glider Ages probably more difference than whether it's light wakes also heavyweight sauce. Asni the other thing. That's mentioned mentioned mentioned here by the listeners is the loadings on the lines and how it affects the trim of the glider data. Obviously you know in the question. He's completely right saying that. A lonzo heavy loaded salons allies loaded so the airlines get longer on the sidelines. Signs either stayed the same night so even even get shorter cuts One thing to point out is that yes the technique of you've stretching the lines to make the mowing again really is not advisable. Because they'll sympathies shrink back again quite sued you better to actually Ashley not stretch the lines and just readjust the lines. Even under the night loading that they're under and then nobody used the standard standard five kilos to measure the lines and then trim the whole lighter with the five feelings being correct a not overstretching the lines in Bruce I I've been told is just an urban myth or urban legend. I've been told that you know when I get a brand new two liner You know to not go throw it all around. You know to not not do big wing orders not to do big spirals or if I do spirals you know. Make sure they're symmetric doing one way one day one day they're urges the balance things out because things are stretching differently as truth that it's not some you know I haven't followed that advice. Nice that's for sure you know soon as glider often just through spirals immediately just to load up and get more into shape because what happens is as you know when you get a new glider. There is some defamation than an it. Settles in and what we tried to be. Today's that wants it's. The glider is settled in then the lengths of the lines should be same as the lengths in the manual. And that's also the same as the lengths of the -cation so what I'm saying thing is that when you get a new glider the lines are not relents that are in the manual an not an answer certified pre pre settled in lengths. If you live in a so that means the aliens short glide is probably a little bit faster when it's brand new and then it will settle in over say thirty hours and then the airlines again a bit longer salons get a bit shorter and then you'll be settled into what the glided like often certified because they will so done. Probably thirty hours of flying. The Thomas said he fi and also what's in the manual. So there's the there's the checks nights. This is the opposite to what some brands do. Some brands like to. You have new line links and put the same nights to the manual than when you glad to settled in to try and make it back to the new lilacs again. It just doesn't make sense but So that's why we don't do it.


00:50:05 - 00:55:10

But I think the Bryans kind of split between these two different methods of calculating the line lengths of the Czech nights in a minute how often she trimmer layers. I would say I mean we put a loop on the the light line. So that's the stabby line the lines and just released. Is that loop off to say one hundred hours of flying hours before doing that. Yeah Okay so one hundred hours flying release Luke and then we recommend it a line check every getting fifty hours in the certification label of every awesome. Okay but you don't actually have to do a full on check you can also do Cool relative flying check signs turns that If you should go to borrow trees to do you know the full laser line check what you can do is just take the Avon Line and then compare it to the a the online. I compare that to the seat online. A normally the the differences you know maybe three centimeters and you can checking the manual. It's supposed to be three centimeters than you have a look and see whether it is three centimeters. It's very easy to get a quick check on whether you're lines. Roughly rights not. I just find that they WANNA be one see on yep interested in even if you just check those three lines that's eight. Set your age send ended the way that the number one lines of the most important they take my slowed. That's what defines the trim of the grind the most and so just just checking those in one a one C one and the relative difference between them. Because then you don't have to travel trying to have exactly the right load if you just take one on one hand of online the other hand is long as you have to save them both and you can see the difference compensating system is fascinating fastening great plummet and yeah surprised. More people know about academic system to teach all instructors worldwide. Yeah Yeah No. I've never heard that that's that's great. Would agree on a no. Yeah and so so good just for a quick check feeling glide is while the other thing thing. Is You know the way. She's extremely Putin as always you buy the don't she's Nice. Then you can be essential that the guy will find us nother one. Admiral doesn't make sense for my own. Blood is always if a glided orch without political advisor. Ariso then for sure if some somebody has done very well without the IRA's but all my own blood is always can be launched without wheel narrows so if you if you can watch without pulling on the Ariza By the fine you're talking. You're you've got brees he's here. You're talking a radio or some breeze. Just lean into it you know with a united takes a little bit of skill and timing but you just need into it and move back to the glider and if the glove other just POPs up on its own done for sure. It's not impossible nightclub. Okay we have a question here about the education. And whether it's really making goddess Scifo will holding back designers This is a very difficult question on has very recently been discussed in a open meeting in Switzerland about six weeks ago try attended most of the big brands. The where we were discussing collapse. Lines whether collapsed line should be accepted in the ENC close. The result of that meeting was said was positive and they decided to accept collapsed lines in the and see costs but this is very much relates to this whole question of of how said -CATION is is holding design or not holding back design. And I think this this this kind of relates to a paraglider is. I'm pat of when I first started. Flying was described to me that Ah paraglider. There is a flexible structure. So that when things when everything goes really wrong and the you know the glider goes below the pilot the gliders official Go back above the pilots. And then re-invited counseling services the Basic Safety Mac mechanism of paralyze so the designed assigned to collapse so that the glide stays above pilot basically whereas If you'RE GONNA hang out for example gladys lots of collapse on they tumbled instead and and that's so it's a complete so Danny's thing that keeps a hang glider say is the pitch stability ability of the way.


00:55:11 - 01:00:06

And that's you have all these design features to help pitched ability of hang gliders so that laugh lines and reflect sections sections and genetic. It's a whole different way of designing and testing riders. So this question about whether a relationship collapse or not is a fundamental question about the principle of how apparently IDA flies and how padded is safe. She got me totally. So it's it's a very difficult question when he stops talk about on collapsible gliders than Then you really talking about something completely different now. We is glide is get more stiffs with more plastic in them that we're getting begins with gray area where the glide is not really paradise anymore and if that happens then you know I think the only way forward from that is to stop to doing design power. Glad light redesigned hang out. So that's means you have to design a with pitched It called tumble and Nobody's even thought about doing that testing. So it's a logical result of of the way things would go if we started to design known collapsible. Next question comes from Taylor. He ends buddies or stationed over a measure their station or they're working on what's going on but they are newer pilots in the kind of fifty hour range are over Mongolia and trying to figure Out How to get whether resources and what they mean when they find him so I went to my weather expert. REVEIZ use my supporter in the x outs. He was also at the World Cup in Australia and policies for the sound. You're a little bit. We were right outside where they were scoring for the World Cup. And there's a lot of traffic the hotel going back and forth and people people in a pool in the background but Miles will do his magic in the shouldn't be too bad. Rubbish is definitely one of the preeminent weather people. Yeah I think in the world right now and it comes to flying and assessing weather so I asked him as a dealer great question. Listen I understand your need to get out and fly more and how difficult it can be to predict the conditions that are going to allow you to build the time you're looking for. I use a variety of different resources in the various places I fly. I don't know how many of them will be applicable in Mongolia. But I think I have a few. That will be helpful for you. You probably makes sense to start by talking more about the general conditions. You're looking for to achieve soaring flight and a paraglider. If if you're just starting out you'll want ideal conditions and even so it will be challenging flying for two hundred and fifty meter hill to get good enough thermal into to build the airtime. You want the only way to do it is to get out and try to generally There are two sorts of conditions. You're going to want and depends is on how mountainous the train is in your area and how much moisture in get either. You're going to want a high pressure condition you were bridging is in effect. And that's the case if you're in an area that's prone to overdevelopment and storms if you're not in such an area And then you typically are going to want more post frontal conditions where a trough for front has moved through and mixed out any inversions and brought a colder colder air mass increasing instability. So once you know which of these sorts of conditions you're looking for based on the air you live. You can start with your basic point forecasts. Whatever whether resources available in your area idea of whether pressure is trending earning higher or lower and the most obvious indicator for high pressure conditions is an increase in temperature and sunny clear skies? So if you're in a place is prone to overdevelopment. You're probably going to be looking for the time when the temperature peaks and there are no forecast for clouds as a day that you want to take Gov to get up the hill and hundred skills if however you live in an area or over development is very rare and it's much more likely you need the instability in order to give you enough energy in the air mass to. Do you want to practice in this case watch for increasing cloudiness and decrease in temperature in the coming days in the Northern Hemisphere. You'll typically see the winds shift to a southerly doubly direction head of a cold front trough as the trough passes there'll be a significant increasing cloudiness.


01:00:06 - 01:05:24

You may get rain and the winds will probably increase as well. Aw then they'll switch to a northerly direction immediately after the pastors of the trough front it's going to depend a lot on your specific location. Exactly which day after that passed the passage of that front. You WanNa go flying. Typically I would say in the Mid Latitudes Northern Hemisphere. It's likely to be one or two days after the passes of a front however If you're ground doesn't hold a lot of moisture maybe it's even the day of the front of it passes early enough in the day so the main key here is. How much wind are you in finding the back side of the trough? And how long will it take for the sun to cook the moisture out of the ground so that not all energy is going into evaporating trading moisture. I can't give you an answer for your location in Mongolia but look at one to two days as the most common answer there. So let's talk a little bit about the models and tools available to understand what whether you have approaching the National Weather Service. United United States runs a global forecast system model G F S and there are ways to view that information. Lot Of paraglider pilots is Chris. galleys alleys EXC- skies tool it's a subscription service. But it's a really good way to visualize the data. Jeff has not particularly reliable detailed uses the large grid size. So it's very much an approximation but it does cover the entire Globe and so it's one of the most general tools available another global model that a lot of times outperforming the these as the European European model the SEM WF the only source that I'm aware of reviewing SEM WF data without reggie subscription fees is windy which is able freely in the web browser it also provides a lot of different ways to visualize this data and it's worth spending some time and playing with it digging around user interface reading help documents oriels to understand exactly how you can pick apart the data ATAS available through windy. Those tools are probably that your best options worldwide forgetting handle on what you have approaching in terms of good paragliding in conditions beyond that. I have a folder. bookmarks for each location visit and the local resources vary drastically in availability ability and quality. I don't know if there any soundings introduced in northern Asia in Mongolia the local high resolution models if so reach out to anyone you know in your community who might have those pieces of information confined by links to the data. I also asked Max Question. We are Argentina that hadn't come through from the listeners. But it's come through many times times in the past when as pilot ready to step up to a pot harness from seat harness and why and what are the advantages disadvantages and risks inherent parents to do it. So when it's time to fly with actually in the pilot live you after you flight position quite a Interesting things which is a run CANASTA. maccanico enough shows pilot. When you begin out you need something reasonable? So you stop using stable lighter stable honest and you flight position seating teaching reading pride in a price position makes makes you makes yours. Pilots is a physical the system which goes into the right direction because movement coming from the glider from us and also when you're beginning a you'll feel the visa of vision is located to the ground so bye bye position? You feel the vision is in front of you and below you. You can see exactly ways lending where to go how you build your lending libra Somali. You Fly Somalia fill. The Vision asked to go higher but he stopped so milling. You still needs some indication from the Graham whereas somewhere and start shoe indication but more and more you need to watch sky where the clue to find the so more clouds allows it was pilot surrounding you and naturally you will have to go no more reclined position and the more you go reclined.


01:05:24 - 01:10:04

Seles the Raleigh Natia. Would it be and by doing exists so you changing your view. You're watching wrong. Who stopped having more information coming from? And you're lowering your Raleigh Natia in just by doing this without adding change anything anything you know flying gear you stop becoming more sensible because over the movement coming from the glider will be transmitted more precisely. Besides you would feel mole mall. You will get more information from your data from the same better. Actually and the mole full performance of skill to file ADI'S SIMONE E we go in a in prone position and Pilots I country pilot pilot. We all fly in a prone position because the inflammation we need a sky. We need to see some clouds who need to seize buds. Sometimes we need to see the poop instagram and also something reading both don't you need to seize glider goes demolli fly in a high levels molly lighter demanding mending and by flying prone position. You always have your bladder somewhere about how you feel vision and always as a movement coming from the glider you have visual indication. Maybe not Conscious ABS- APPS for understanding. What's happening with lighter? How stuff moving? So you see. Moving before fusing formation. And you get more precise you action so this change of position is quite natural actually any natural compulsory. Somehow you you have to go to the mall. You fly if Amman wave me too prone and in addition by changing being this position you also gained a foams. Because you'll I owed any new shape gets better frontal area a slow out so you have less strict you make less drag new gaining home so so when time to stop flying with surveys no precise on so I would say when. It's time to do it when you stopped making cross country when you stop improving your skills when when you start also flying for a long time because you can have the same advantage in terms of the sensitivity in Of Way chief w without any just by flying of exterior a position. But then when you start flying for a long time. It's a bit of a huge advantage in in terms of wasps uses uses much moral comfortable. Because you don't have to wear a flying suit don't in which Ross sweating takeoff as annual wet when you reach cloud as cold with. But you don't have distributed read predicts who from the way better relation installations and any wings Thanks you sorry. Oy and same by saving You all You increase safety sitting analogy means digging better decision Tomato due to make a wrong decision genre bat choice going place. You did not identify as being dangerous or whatever so everything's linked somehow And of course life is never simple. When you get something you'll always left and the PUTT as disadvantage in terms of safety because it's lowering your drag streetfight which increasing the dragon when Ucla flow gums from the site.


01:10:07 - 01:15:06

So face he's reading increasing when you see from the side in. When does your flu come from the side? When you get into trouble when you start digging and the and Wendy rotate and molly rotates faster rotates mode drag you create with? It's when you do sweet succeed spiraling than the May Not be a problem but obviously eight twenty eight to collapse in stocks rotating because of a collapse in that case having a bud may increase the risk of twist because I stopped dunning Prevent you from doing your job lighter so lang with pud means in gaze of trouble you have the position re quickly. You go apprised Benue legs fight minimize this Size shape society drag full avoiding twist goes the twist might be one of the most. I kept most tricky. Seems to manage when you get to collapse or you. Some station invented your visual. I'm Becky Than Swee Complex on sort of lighter when you when you trysted and regarding supposed in just say before with respect Also a reason why we all now increasing dramatic Jesus is referring. It's not only for I. O Dynamic obviously been faring reload also compensate eight the front side. Oreo and by compensating this by making equal. Somehow you to improve the honest full flow and go let owing stop turning and the Minimizing the risk of so max on that point there's been this huge advancement in super lightweight. Arneses to match with the axe APPs. And all these hike and fly races and nor core tells on the cutting edge of that what are we given up when we give up seaboards and ferrings. And what are we giving up when we go to lubar lightweight gear because because there seems to be a huge demand for this kind of equipment but I'm assuming there's a huge compromise they're in safety and in performance conversions. That people make quite often super by Thomas. Soot Hollis honesty and mainly two different geometry gives a pure amok. She were almost no dampening system and he thought gays salary. Stable ones aerobics and Really tiring to fly and Joe. Machinery didn't like for the beginning and we developed our own Jimmy tweets debry which is a speech like an honest as almost any montaigne tin harmless and honesty and such geometry makes a pretty as a naturally a pretty big dumping system awesome and it's quite stable and it really has confronting demanding so it's a an ultra honest without to see book is not necessarily really dynamic in Libya Rolex can be stable and even a quick stewardess just metal Armenta just tweet. It's supposed to work to make your is. We need stable even with such even without oh to see but in any case you losing something which is precision because seep list honest when you apply wait for which evening when you apply for full transmitted directly buys a plate which is rigid in. Was this honest with seques on flesh.


01:15:07 - 01:20:00

Pledge which is trump's meetings of force and you you will not lying false on Plate on which webbing I tweaked witness GonNa give you up just rolling into your honest and she is somehow a lack of precision and the reason those things independence the two legs with the late Mississippi honest when something is happening on the right side it's transmitted by your body with Dishonest so could you sleep pretty much the same. But we don't see stemming makes tweety dining and we speak legs that's pretty than your two legs are moving independently and that might be disturbing to beginning. We had we not used to feel to half glider and Somato time to get used to it and full defense in Behavioral in-flight. But for through all of some of the things you giving up when flying deciding on us in terms of performance Steal a very simple test to make you sit in your honest you're going to fly and you just bent one lane to get your speed ball and and you receive your hanging moving. Then you elect some ending point on the same side. He's going when you stop pushing he's going. When you bumping for controlling glider you'll to hanging out moving inland flowing in your move and which lead in las energy for you start making? You lied on moving and you lose what you do you lose Democrat with a fuel. You'd one reaching aged when you move inside your honest. Nothing's because it's much more edgy. And this really light on his are Areso stops and all your movement transmutation glider make make moves and make make you lose making fuel officers series abuse clear another loss. Sir Derivative Not Light Year cumby asdrubal as a really heavy. It's physically impossible people. We know that a lot of people are asking for lighter and lighter one and but dribble this is just invisible and and you have saluted morning agree to custody I just I hope you enjoyed that. Pretty cool show and I'll try to do more and more. Those is go down the line. Most of those asked me anything show will be released just as bonus content but similar questions. And if I don't if I can't answer them an email I'll line him up for an ask me anything. Show down the line. Thanks for listening. If you find the cloud base may have valuable you can support it. In a lot of different ways you can give us a rating on itunes or stitcher. However you get your podcast? That goes a long ways to help. Spread the word you can blog about it on your own website or shared on social media. You can talk about it on the way to launch with your pilot friends. I know a lot of interesting. Conversations have happened that way and of course you can support support US financially. This show does take a lot of time. A lot of editing lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind the scenes cost so if you can support US financially we always ask for is a buck show and you can do that through a one time donation through pay pal or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out. We put put a new show out every two weeks. So for example. If you did a buck show and every two weeks it'd be about twenty five dollars a year so wait cheaper than a magazine subscription and makes all. Oh this possible.


01:20:01 - 01:21:40

I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors. We get asked about that Pretty frequently but I a whole bunch of different reasons which I've said many times on the show show. I don't WanNa do that. I don't like to have in that stuff at the front of the show. An awesome. Want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people and these are just our opinions but our opinions are not being being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars. I think that's a pretty toxic business model so I hope you dig that you can support us. If you go to cloud base Ma'am I'M DOT COM. You can find the places to support. You can do it through Patriot dot com for slash. cloud-based mayhem if you WANNA recurring subscription. You can also do that directly through the website. We've tried to make it really easy and that will give you access to all the bonus material. A little video cast that we do an extra little nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make get into the main show but we feel like you should hear we don't put any of that behind a paywall if you can't afford to support us than just let me know and I'll set you up with an account of of course that'll be lifetime and hopefully you're being in a position some day to be able to support us. But you'll find all that on the website all of you who have supported us or or even joined our newsletter or but cloud-based mayhem merchandise t shirts or hats or anything. You should be all set up. You should have an account and you should be able to access all that bonus material. Now thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate your support. And we'll see on the next show. Thank you




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