Kinga Masztalerz gets after it. She picked up paragliding not too long ago, but has been pretty fierce about chasing it hard from the beginning. She’s tackled the Red Bull X-Alps twice, flown all over the world, runs her own hike and fly race in New Zealand, and instructs at home in New Zealand and in places like Bir, India. But her journey has had quite a few scary bumps on the way. We start off with her experience in the X-Alps. She shares her initial excitement and overwhelming feelings during her first race in 2019 and the disappointment of being eliminated and the emotional impact it had on her. Kinga also talks about her injury in 2021 and the challenges she faced in participating in the race. She reflects on the changing dynamics of the Red Bull X-Alps and how her approach to flying has evolved over time. She emphasizes the importance of learning from mistakes, using her own rather scary ones early on as a catalyst towards building confidence as a pilot. Then we get into her coaching journey and the importance of understanding the mental and physical aspects of flying. She shares her experiences with overcoming fear and gaining confidence, and how she developed her coaching program to help other pilots navigate their own flying journeys. Kinga also talks about the balance between turning a passion into a business and how guiding and coaching actually adds to her love for flying. Lastly, she introduces the Wanaka Hike and Fly Race, a fun event that combines adventure, socializing, and flying in the beautiful Southern Alps of New Zealand. Enjoy!
If you like what you hear, please consider becoming a subscriber to ensure our high-quality content continues. You can also help contribute to a healthier, greener planet through our partnership with Our Forest.
See our donation and subscription options here.
Listen to the Podcast
Listen to us on all the most popular podcast platforms:
Gavin McClurg (00:02.766)
Kinga, welcome to the Mayhem. We're having some technical difficulties here, so I can't see you, but I trust you're still there and down in New Zealand. Sounds like you're doing some guiding and we will, I want to spend most of the time talking about this very cool hike and fly race you've been organizing the last few years. It was one of your participants who reached out and said, you got to get Kinga back on the show. And I said, yeah, I've been meaning to do that forever. So that was a good reminder that I needed to get you on here, but I thought where we could,
Kinga (00:15.573)
you
Gavin McClurg (00:32.76)
start was the last time I saw you actually physically was at the launch above Kim C in the last X -Alps but we'll talk about that but welcome to the show and and thanks for joining me.
Kinga (00:46.035)
Hi Gavin, amazing to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Your podcast has been a never -ending source of inspiration for so many pilots worldwide. So it's really good to be here again.
Gavin McClurg (00:57.838)
That's good to have you back on. The last time was right after the 2017 race, I think. They all kind of gel together. Do I have that right?
Kinga (01:05.81)
2019, yeah, it was my very first Red Bull X -Alps in 2019 for me, yes.
Gavin McClurg (01:07.63)
2019.
Gavin McClurg (01:13.004)
19, okay, yeah, 19 and then 23, okay, oh yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:19.72)
Well, much has happened since then. You were a pretty new pilot back in 2019, as I recall, and you're kind of just getting into it. And the adventure game was big in your soul. And so you stepped up to the X Alps. And I know that ended in some ways on a disappointing note, getting eliminated, but you had a good run.
Kinga (01:35.813)
Absolutely.
Kinga (01:42.226)
Yes, so when I applied for my first Red Bull X -Alps in 2019 I was pretty fresh pilot. I was flying for four years and I felt so new and so overwhelmed and so inexperienced and I was so inexperienced comparing to all the legends out there. You included have been doing it for a long time and you know, even meeting all these amazing pilots and athletes out there in...
And the start line of Red Bull XL was such a big thing for me, meeting all these legends and being able to race with them and mostly learn from them. So for me, it was mostly a learning experience and an adventure. I obviously didn't try to win anything and most of my racing...
the biggest and baddest Red Bull XS, but an X -Spear and...
Kinga (02:47.091)
pushing ourselves day after day with this very laser focus towards, you know, moving towards our destinations and while having all the great pilots and athletes around us doing similar thing and seeing what choices they make, how they fly, how they use the day and conditions, having all the safety network that's provided by your team, by the organization of the race.
Yeah, that's an incredible opportunity to learn and this learning curve on my first 2019 in particular this first big race 2019 Red Bull Exiles was immense. So as you said, I was pretty disappointed to be basically at the very last elimination round on the 10th or 11th day. I got eliminated with this just absolutely silly mistake with navigation. Basically we turned in the wrong, we took the wrong turn basically.
Gavin McClurg (03:28.238)
Mmm.
Kinga (03:46.417)
and after this incredible chase and growing race not to get eliminated I was so heartbroken but also to do such a simple navigation and navigating kind of mistake after 10 days of Red Bull X -Alps who hasn't been there racing hasn't been so overwent and exhausted and with the whole team on sleep deprivation and
kind of not knowing also for the first time what I was really signing up for. It's very easy now to laugh at it, but back then it just showed how exhausted we all were, how overwhelmed I was and as a result I was pretty heartbroken and it took me actually weeks, if not months to get over this race. I was just so exhausted. I didn't even want to fly anymore after the first Red Bull X -Ups. It felt like it was just too much and also...
Now I understand and we all to some extent have it It's like Olympic blues that after such a big event that has been in your center of your focus attention training for so long You've been preparing for it and thinking about it and focusing and for so long in the time leading to the event After after it's done. It's like well now what so you really need to learn to
to keep rolling and find other goals and also learn to relax after but also learn to come back and find other goals and adventures to it. So this first Red Bull X -Labs was definitely life -changing in this sense.
Gavin McClurg (05:23.022)
You had the...
You and as I recall, you were planning on doing the 21 race, but you had an injury. Is that right?
Kinga (05:33.879)
Yes, so 2021 was a particularly difficult year because we were still in lockdown. New Zealand was for quite a long time. It's an island far away from everything. And it was quite a long lockdown in the sense that we couldn't do things. We could do things within New Zealand. But moving in and out from New Zealand was very complicated. There was basically no planes. Coming back was complicated.
expensive and long lasting quarantine and etc but also but also then training for it on top of it training for it i i got a stress fracture of a little tiny bone in my foot i was experimenting with different shoes and it didn't go very well and so and it was misdiagnosed for a long time because it was very weird type of fracture and and i got to the point it's at some i got to the
to the point where some doctor asked me that maybe it's in my head and of course I knew that it's something, you know, know your body, you know that something is wrong there. So it was finally diagnosed and because it was misdiagnosed for so long it wouldn't heal itself, I needed surgery and then with all the COVID issues around traveling it just really felt like the universe wasn't cooperating. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (06:54.958)
Mmm, wasn't lined up.
Kinga (06:57.742)
but at the same time it meant that I did 2019, that I missed 2021 and I did 2023. So basically I choose the years with better weather. Because 2021 was...
Gavin McClurg (07:09.166)
Yeah, no kidding. 2019 was amazing. 2023 was really amazing. The pace was insane. Well, let's...
Kinga (07:16.782)
Yeah, exactly.
The pace in the race becomes more and more, you think, oh, it can't get any faster and then you see there's just guys moving faster and going for it even more. It's just getting what you think. It's really redefining again and again what's possible for the great athletes, great pilots with this extensive support of the good team, how fast they can move through the Alps with the good weather. It's pretty mind blowing.
Gavin McClurg (07:29.004)
Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (07:45.518)
Let me ask you something that maybe I don't know. You know, there's so many emotions and so many things that go into the race. And like I said, I mostly want to talk about this high -conflict race that you're organizing down in New Zealand, not the X -House. But the last time I did see you, it was quite an interesting time to be an observer. You know, I wasn't in the race this time. I was covering it as a journalist and I had flown down kind of with the league group from their launch.
before the Kimzee turn point and flew down with them to the turn point and then got set up at the launch that most of you went to just south of the Kimzee, or I guess just west of the turn point, but it was the beginning of the chain on the way to Lermous. When I got up there, it was windy, but it had been.
quite a bit stronger for most of the last, I've been up there for a couple hours when you came through and you were either in just not a great mindset or, you know, it had a difficult day. I mean, obviously I wasn't privy to any of that. I didn't see, but when you showed up.
It seemed like a pretty emotional point for you and Chris. Having watched the other participants, the other athletes go through, it was a one out of 10. It was windy, but it was very manageable. Again, I'd love to just know where you were. If that -
played a role in how you felt about the race later on because it was, you seemed quite overwhelmed. Do I have that right? Is that fair?
Kinga (09:33.995)
interesting yeah I remember when we met it's interesting that this is the impression when we gave because I didn't really feel overwhelmed yeah I remember I remember this time we took I took quite a bit of time to kind of take off but not so much because I was overwhelmed or because I was afraid of the wind but because I wanted to kind of make sure that what I'm doing makes sense and there was a moment when quite a few pilots took off and landed basically back where they started there was a there was a couple of
pilots who actually got away and started flying and just kind of flying. There was also a couple of pilots who hiked higher and flew off and there was also a moment that Eli flew off a little bit higher and I thought like well like you know just kind of this decision -making process a little bit okay let's let's not rush it because if I go back to where I started I can always do this you know that's easy to go back to Kiemze and and to be honest
Gavin McClurg (10:11.126)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (10:26.604)
Mm.
Kinga (10:31.209)
this 2023 race for me wasn't too emotional at all if anything I was maybe it's funny to say it about Red Bull X -Ups but it was maybe too chilled when it comes to to this particular race the same way and it was very interesting to observe myself in it because in 2000 you know I had I had two races and four years in between them and because I started as a really fresh pilot when I came to 2023 Red Bull X -Ups
I was a completely different animal, completely different pilot and I've been through so many more places and adventures and mountains since 2019 that in some ways the racing and Red Bull X -Hubs itself didn't turn the same string in me, didn't overwhelm me in the same way, didn't feel like it's... it just felt...
and I know it's unpopular thing to say about Red Bull XR, but it just felt like a race, you know? It just felt like, oh, let's see, let's see and play without much kind of pushing myself. In a weird way, I, and you can see it in the results that also, because at the end I placed similar to my 2019 race, but the whole dynamic of it, first of all, I was a very different pilot, but the dynamic was so completely different. And...
Gavin McClurg (11:33.292)
Oh.
Kinga (11:57.064)
and because of it, you know, Red Bull X -Ops is in general any big race, but Red Bull X -Ops, the biggest we have, requires this constant laser focus and real strong belief that it's worth it, that it's worth to take a little bit of risk, that it's worth to push farther than you would normally, that it's worth to, you know, hammer it on the ground day after day, hour after hour.
and it requires this constant high energy of making fast decisions and going for it and of course meticulous preparation and all these other aspects that happened before the race and honestly I realized in 2023 that racing per se somehow served the purpose for me within this time leading actually to 2023.
and doing, you know, Xperia in 2022 and all these other smaller races which can be smaller but can be as fast and as demanding as the bigger races just in a shorter term. And I really felt the aftermath of the race in 2023 for me was really like, well, I actually happened to push myself and do more exciting things.
Gavin McClurg (13:01.794)
Hmm.
Kinga (13:19.399)
when I go by myself somewhere in the Himalayas or in the New Zealand Alps doing things that I found kind of in the way more committing, more exciting than what I've done during Red Bull X -Alps. So of course this approach, when you approach the Red Bull X -Alps with this kind of mindset you're not gonna perform super well.
Kinga (13:46.972)
And also in this particular race you could see it I could see it multiple times even when I was racing that for example we're coming to Lermos from Kiemze and I was flying from wherever some random mountain and there was you know Zugspitze on the way and I had this beautiful cloud base and of course I didn't need it I didn't need all this altitude but how often can you fly above Zugspitze and wave to people so I did this one thermal more
you know wave to people and cruised around and then had to spiral down all the way from like 3000 meters to Lent in Lermos and run back up and this is something that you shouldn't be doing if your main priority is you know performing as well as possible in the ranking but I had so much fun doing things like this flying from Lermos then you know there was this famous infamous little convergence that we basically hiked on 80 meters up and took off you know you take off and if you don't get a very first
very first climb, then you can as well get out of the harness and land immediately. It was a very, very low take.
Kinga (14:55.748)
from it just in front of me and immediately bombed out so it wasn't very encouraging. But I took off and I did the loud bass and went basically all the way to Switzerland from there through some stunning terrain and tagging turnpike in the air. And then I could have made a race wise, I could have made a...
Gavin McClurg (15:01.294)
Yeah.
Kinga (15:21.861)
kind of more civilized decision but then I decided to land above the snow line, walk to the pass and slip on the pass, you know, wrapped in my wing which also was more like, oh, let's live an adventure there I was really craving adventure and it wasn't great for my ranking neither because then my supporter Chris had to get to me and I didn't eat and I slept wrapped in my wing over Sivretta glacier rather in the high terrain and there was a lot of
issues with communication because the phones didn't work, you know, my batteries went flat, my in...
Gavin McClurg (15:58.67)
you
Kinga (15:59.333)
knew where I was but at the end...
Kinga (16:08.357)
For me it's a...
Kinga (16:12.421)
for me though.
My head is really in the more in...
Kinga (16:22.595)
going different places and not quite in racing and you just shouldn't approach Red Bull X -Ups if you want to perform well that's not the way to go so yeah I wouldn't say that I was overwhelmed this time I was just really in the fun way taking my time and kind of exploring different options and it also told me that probably at least for now the racing stories may be not what I'm
going for what my flying needs or what really turns me on. There's so much to flying of course, hike and fly race.
can do but there's also so many other things that flying is, it can be and you know there's so many wild mountains to fly out there and so many beautiful places, so many adventures to have that are not necessary so the racing for me always have been about learning and adding to my confidence and to this toolbox because you can learn so much and then you can understand.
the mountains and your surroundings better as a result fly better and go for bigger adventures but it was never truly the goal itself that I want to become the world champion of hike and fly or something like this that was never goal itself the goal was always to learn as much so I can go for boulder and more beautiful adventures so yeah I think it's all part of the journey Red Bull X -Ups itself has been changing dramatically within years
you've been doing it for a long time so for sure you saw these changes even more but even within these four years you know it doesn't go through the whole Alps anymore it's more like a loop through the half of the Alps there's more turn points more turn points where the athletes have to land so it's becoming more like a set of shorter tasks less this like big open lines which are still there like in Italy this year it was like more open but the big part
Kinga (18:28.546)
big part of it is really about like set of tasks which become make it kind of faster racing but also racing that you can more like plan more precisely and so move faster but also there's a little bit less wild adventure in it and meanwhile and meanwhile which which again it's like everything is changing and as we said at the beginning the fact that that it's happening faster and faster this itself is mind -blowing and super impressive but the same time mile
my flying and my soul goes a little bit more towards. I even lately interestingly started, you know, like the sport is so focused on flying kilometers and the sport is so focused on of course on rankings which we compete but even if people don't compete when we cross country value is in kilometers and at the beginning especially and also for many pilots forever it's super important to fly kilometers.
this is where they find challenge and and joy but for me I found at some point that it's so much more fun and so much so much more interesting to fly things that I found simply like interesting oh let's try if it works because if I have some really good day and very obvious line to fly and I know that I can pull it off then it's kind of planning and execution and then you just kind of want to do it as fast as possible fly as efficiently as possible to
maximize your distance, but if I do something that I'm like, oh, let's try to go into this valley or to this mountain, I haven't been there yet, let's try to fly like this a lot in the the sun alps that when you go a little bit deeper it means potentially like days of walking or night out and let's try to do this with these conditions and then it brings so much more joy and fun toward me but it's pretty difficult to translate one on one kilometers.
Gavin McClurg (20:19.894)
Mm.
Kinga (20:22.338)
So yeah, I guess it's all part of the journey and we all find our way of flying and finding... I like to talk to my... When I coach, I like to tell my pilots that we fly the way we live and it translates in so many ways. Of course, if we are overconfident, it will come and bite our butt very quickly. But also if we are super shy, we won't go anywhere. If we are in some ways dishonest about ourselves in...
we can cheat it, we can hide it in the real life, you know, blame others or pretend that it's not us or create some narrative that builds over it. But in the air it all comes out pretty quickly. So in the same way as we change within years, I believe that I want to think that we grow and develop and change in this way as humans. It also will affect our flying, but I also like to think that...
this journey of flying can also be very confidence building and can grow us as humans. So, well, that's all part of it. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (21:28.782)
When did you get into coaching?
Kinga (21:33.41)
I got the very first little group I did. It was just before Covid started. A very lucky time to start anything. It was the beginning of 2020 and it was in New Zealand. And it was a really interesting experience. And I realized that there's so much that pilots...
Gavin McClurg (21:44.046)
Mm.
Kinga (22:01.538)
And also, so the inspiration for it was the fact that when I learned to fly and I was already, you know, signed off and theoretically an independent pilot, I still had no clue what I was really doing. And you covered a lot in a podcast talking to pilots that, you know, that we just don't know what we don't know. And we make all these random mistakes. They're often really risking our life because we just don't...
Gavin McClurg (22:23.822)
Yeah.
Kinga (22:30.422)
don't know because there's flying, flying is quite a complex complex story and first we don't know what we don't know then we also think that we know but we don't know and then we go through our intermediate syndrome that we know it all and in particular I went through my intermediate syndrome in a very explosive and and and potentially dangerous way I was I kept making mistake after mistake and just
Gavin McClurg (22:32.046)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (22:41.664)
Right.
Kinga (22:57.506)
couldn't understand that it's potentially dangerous I was just oh let's go let's go again let's go further you know and and and finally I got I pushed it so hard I got so scared that that it basically like traumatized me let's say for next years to come like I would say that next three or four hundred hours I was flying constantly questioning my decisions and
and thinking, am I doing anything stupid? And I'm like, is it okay what I'm doing there? Or am doing something completely random and I'm gonna die? So it was like flying with this kind of trying to question my decision every time, especially coming from being, when I started flying, I was pretty fearless and getting from this to that was pretty harsh. So when I...
Gavin McClurg (23:46.894)
Was that due to a singular incident, or was it just a cacophony of incidents? Like you said, you're making a whole bunch of decisions that were pretty questionable, and it kind of added up, or was it did you go in hard or something and have some kind of a?
Kinga (23:57.344)
Get it.
Kinga (24:03.906)
So just a kind of quick story. When I started flying, I discovered that flying is my thing. I was completely hooked. So I left everything, moved to Italy, to Bassano del Grappa in autumn and was flying there for whole autumn and winter. And it's a very particular place to fly. You can fly thermals in autumn and winter, but it's all very weak. There's not much wind. The wind, if anything, always comes from flatlands. Then they have this obvious ridge.
Yeah, the wind is always coming more or less from the south, there's no valley winds, it's not really mountain flying, it's all pretty mellow and you fly low, scratching close to the trees in winter, in autumn and winter because it's weak. So you get pretty used to these conditions and after winter there I got pretty...
confident and pretty efficient in this in this type of flying so when the first spring came I was in this horrible place to be when I thought that oh I'm already flying similar flies that local seasoned pilots fly on a given day in this winter autumn conditions in the place that I knew very well because I was flying there every day so I'm actually quite a good pilot like
if you need a typical intermediate syndrome on steroids, that was me exactly on my first spring. And absolutely, I knew it all. I was already super current in this very particular little bubble of conditions in this particular place. And then the spring came. And my spring, obviously this not only spring in Bassano, was very different than autumn and winter. But also just to mix it up, I went to Switzerland. I went to Swiss Alps in April and...
Gavin McClurg (25:28.396)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Way over confident and way under prepared.
Kinga (25:52.994)
And then I started making this mistake after mistake. I was just to make long story short, the first thing I did actually was to go over the lake and I knew that Villeneuve is a place where people train acros. I was like, oh, I stole my glider for the first time. No clue what I was doing. So I just stole it. It obviously dropped behind me. I panicked. I released. It shot in the worst moment possible because it was exactly behind me, stalled.
So it went into twist, etc. And I flew out and then I'm talking to locals about it and they're like, I tried this thing and they look at me like I'm completely crazy but there's no boat, you had no jacket If you went to water you would die, what are you thinking? I was like, oh, okay, right Maybe that wasn't as safe as I thought it was Maybe actually water wasn't such a safe option And then basically the next day I went to Verbier and...
and I did 2600 meters, I thought I'm so high because in Bassan you always fly so low but here you have Monta, it's almost 4000 meters, crossed the valley, put myself in the like little, behind little spur in the the lee side of the valley wind and got a collapse, overreacted, spun the other side and crash on a tree. I had no clue about it, about valley winds again, I didn't know that low, what low means, how high I should be, what I was doing.
So yes, getting off this tree was a whole story because it was 20 meter pine and there was a lot of snow, I was at 2200 meters so it's still in April a lot of snow so the whole operation was pretty complicated but making long story short I got off this tree with the help of a friend, very capable friend, way more capable than I was I spent the next day I spent the next day
I spent the next day detangling my wing and like and reattaching the risers that became a bundle of like the whole lines became a bundle of shame of course so after this whole day of drying my wing and the touch and at the reattaching everything I took a train back home and I came back in the evening to Bassano and back then home was in Bassano I had this little apartment there rented from a friend and
Kinga (28:18.144)
kid you not I thought at this point for the first time I thought okay I basano maybe a little bit like not quite enough I need to new places I need to learn new places and learn how to fly but also Swiss OBS in April that may be a little bit too much for me right now yeah so I need something then I need to find a way to to progress through my flying and so tomorrow I'm not flying it was a very important moment in my
flying journey because I was talking to myself. Tomorrow I'm not flying, the weather looks rubbish, in the afternoon the weather forecast looks like it's gonna rain, there's no reason so I'll just spend some chilled day and process things and decide what I want to do, how I want to progress with my flying because there was the first moment when I felt like okay if I keep doing it this way that's not a great, I mean important...
place to kind of decide what I'm doing with my flying in the future this spring and summer and it all sounded great I woke up in the morning and I had this little apartment one window was going to the takeoff another window was over kind of over the landing so I saw the whole morning pilots you know Basan del Grappa very popular place so I saw the whole day people coming to land and finally later in the morning I was like
No, I can't, just a little flight, just a little flight, I have to go. I was so addicted to flying that even after all this, all this conversation with myself, the bad weather, weather focus, I was just so hungry and so greedy for airtime at this point that I just, I have to go. So I hiked up, it took me another hour altogether, you know, sort my stuff out. So I took off. So already I thought, okay, that's not a good place to fly. I need to process. I'm not in good mindset. Then I'm late. The weather focus wasn't great. I still...
I still put myself there, I'm flying and the sky was covered with this kind of stratus cloud but it's okay, in winter we fly like this pretty often, that's not a big deal but it's in winter, spring is a little bit different and I was maybe 10 km away from the takeoff and I felt a little drops of rain
Kinga (30:39.362)
And even then, after all this, what happened, I could have just flown out and landed on the flatlands and just there are plenty of fields there and just hitch back home like I've done multiple times. I've landed on every field there around Basan -Legda, because this is where I started thermaling and started going for my tiny cross -country flights. But even then I was like...
No, I don't feel like hitching. I'll just go back. I'll just fly back. Just this 10k. And I never made it back because when it came, the storm that was the massive cell that was overbuilding over the stratus that we didn't see when it finally, finally, finally, you know, developed, then I put myself basically in the, I was still in the air in the, in the midst of a spring storm.
and I was trying to spiral dive, then that was my spiral diving. It was pretty rubbish back then, so it was putting me toward the trees. And I just two days ago, I peeled myself off the tree in the Swiss Alps. I'm like, I'm not going to the trees. So I like big ears and speed bar, and beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, going up and again and again and took forever. And finally, finally when I put myself on the ground, I was...
I was pulling ears on this wet glider. Oh my God, that was just such a mess. I had no clue what I was doing. Seriously. Finally, it went into the parachute that I didn't recognize and just I hit the ground pretty hard. The glider was so wet that basically the dust, like I thought it would pull me because it was so windy, but instead it made this like this wet sound and just fell down. And I was and at this point it was just, you know, I had to take off my glasses. I didn't see anything. Everything was wet. It was blowing.
and I'm laying on the ground, I hit pretty hard and I'm laying on the ground in this rain and thinking I think I didn't break anything but now I'll lay here for a moment and think about my life choices and this really changed everything that was such a close call and very very slowly I was 5k from home yeah so very slowly I packed everything the glider was twice the size
Gavin McClurg (32:40.014)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Kinga (32:50.402)
because it had so much water in it, very brave glider, it was still four -liner, you know, we're flying gliders that would go through everything unless you really tried super hard to pull big ears on a very wet glider. By the way, if anyone's listening to it, if you ever get into rain or get your wing wet, don't pull big ears, don't be hard on brakes, as much speed as possible, speed bar and fly out. Yes, we need speed, obviously, not to, the bigger angle of attack.
Gavin McClurg (33:11.926)
Yeah, stay on speed all the way to the ground. Yeah.
Kinga (33:20.654)
the worse it becomes. So that changed, so still in the helmet I walked, last 5k home and that's really kind of shook me as it should. So answering this question, yes there was a lot of events leading to it but at the same time there was this one final, I was so lucky, I made so many mistakes on this day.
from the very beginning of the mindset and not flying all the way to recognizing the weather pattern, trusting the weather forecast, being vigilant to the way to handling my glider, not understanding how the... Actually, like the fact that I didn't even know, you know, I'm a physicist by education and the fact that I didn't even connect that pulling big ears and being hard on brakes is not a great idea on the...
the wet glider all together it was just so mind -blowing to me and it took me a long long time to trust myself again and actually this time build the confidence start from zero and build the confidence that is justified with experience and actually knowing what you're doing because you mentioned that
Gavin McClurg (34:13.934)
when you're soaked.
Gavin McClurg (34:30.286)
Now you were firmly in the grip of intermediate syndrome there, big time. It had to hold on to you. Give me one sec. Just pause for a second. My dog is going crazy. I've got to go do something else with him. I don't know if you can hear that, but let me just move here. Pause for a sec. I'll be right back.
Kinga (34:35.362)
Oh, so heavily. So every time, yeah.
Kinga (34:49.058)
Okay.
Gavin McClurg (34:51.598)
Thank you.
Kinga (36:10.338)
All good?
Gavin McClurg (36:16.564)
Sorry.
Kinga (36:18.786)
good so maybe I'll just continue back toward coaching.
Gavin McClurg (36:25.646)
Yeah, yeah, so just pick it up. Pick it up from where we, you know, pick it up so it's an obvious break from where we left off.
Kinga (36:31.874)
Yeah, yeah, yeah so my intermediate syndrome was was really really full on and it took me a long time to rebuild from it and it was a long and bumpy journey because we like to think about progression as some linear line that the more we fly the more we the better we fly and the easier everything becomes and usually it's anything but linear it's bumpy and
and crazy, crazy line going up and down and while traveling this line I realized how much is involved both mentally and on the level of understanding the weather and topography and handling your wing in different conditions and understanding the physics of flying and emotions and mindset and dealing with fear so I've been through all this because I put myself
in a really, really heavy way at the very bottom of this line of fear and confidence after being overconfident at the beginning of my flying and once I finally punched through and again it was a long journey, it's a never ending journey really, it just changes but once I came to the other side and gained some skills and confidence that was this time actually justified and
support and backed up by experience and things that I had done I thought wow that would be so cool to have someone during this journey who would guide me through it would have been so much easier so my coaching basically the idea of it basically came from this aspect meanwhile I got quite a bit into Volbivac flying and venturing into the mountains in this multi -day way
and also understood that of course it can be going for weeks and making...
Kinga (38:30.85)
big tree but can be also your night out and traveling through the mountains just you know going out there for a flight and just deciding that we are not coming back for dinner and there's so many ways to explore the mountains and so much to do there so coaching basically came from this concept that now after processing it all within
years and hundreds if not thousands now thousands of hours of flying that's something that I'm pretty sure other pilots might might be useful for other pilots and yeah and I started from there with the little groups that were designed for kind of Volbivac clinics so we would start with with with with
flying as much as possible, flying cross -country, understanding the mountainous environment, doing top landings, super important, and take -offs in different places that are not necessarily, you know, astroturf and the windsock, but the new places and making pilots understand what's involved, what it means to have a good place to take off somewhere in the wilderness, what's a good place to land or top land safely, etc.
skills that usually when we just fly cross -country or when pilots come out of school and fly in you know in the usual spot they don't necessarily think about it and also there's not so much well structured knowledge out there because for a long time when I started flying volbiwag was basically this concept that it's only for some you know the best of the best the boldest adventurous in the world and to kind of bring it
bring it to this level that it can be a fun thing to do in different ways for pilots who are relatively flash you know you have 50 hour pilot and a good mentorship you can take them for a cool adventure in the mountains and basically you're gonna see it again and again I take sometimes I work with I've been working with 30 hour pilots I've been working for with 2 000 hour pilots and of course the adventures
Kinga (40:52.352)
change and what we do and how I design these adventures this changes with the level and capacity of the pilot and the weather and the terrain of course depending where we are but the fact that even relatively fresh pilots can go out there and have a taste of this multi -adventure and then get some tools and build on it to start growing towards bigger adventures and create their own.
their own way of flying and enjoying the mountains that's incredibly satisfying and a lot of fun to me to do so yeah
Gavin McClurg (41:30.414)
I'm curious to know, I've always been very hesitant to make a business out of something I'm really passionate about. You're obviously incredibly passionate about flying, but you've also created, this is how I'm assuming you're paying the bills, is your guiding and taking people on these adventures. It sounds like it adds to it for you, but do you ever feel like you're kind of,
it's working against your love and your own passion for the sport or does it add to it?
Kinga (42:06.334)
That's a very, very good question, Gavin. And yes, we see it again and again that when you make your passion into work, it just kills the passion and it's easy to do it. Since also among friends and pilots who started flying tandems commercially and doing other stuff. In this case, I really feel at this point, and again, we are all...
we all change as human beings, as pilots. So at this point, I really feel like it adds because it's about, you know, you get with your flying to the point, at the beginning, or for some pilots forever, you just pursue these personal goals and flying is a very, very solitary and very egoistic sport, if you wish. It's really about your goals and your performance and your dreams.
Gavin McClurg (42:30.19)
Sure.
Kinga (42:57.214)
and very often you can see that it happens at the cost of other parts of your life or relationships or it's not a team sport really it's really about there's a lot of ego in the sport there's a lot of me my flying you know I'm the pilot and it's also justified because at the end it's all our responsibility our safety our decisions you are this little aircraft somewhere in the mountains you know we are flying a piece of cloth through the mountains and of course it should be all our you know
all our fame and glory for little and bigger successes but also our risk and our responsibility to make it right. So sharing it and sharing it with pilots who come to learn and seeing how it can affect their not only flight.
Sometimes I have pilots who keep coming back to different places with me or even the same places or even same trips because I need to see them again.
connect to different things that we work through and it can be of course about flying because part of what we do, what I try to do with pilots and again depends on the pilot, pilots come with different goals and expectations and skill level but what I usually try to do with pilots is not only about the time that we spend together that we go from some cool adventure of course I want them to fly as much as possible and I always ask
what would be this perfect trip? Is it more about flying your first 100k? Or is it more about spending this night in a beautiful place and flying off into the sunrise? Is it more about beauty or challenge or kilometers or some other aspect of flying? And then we try to make it happen. But it's also about giving them tools and knowledge and particular mindset and sharing the passion and focus into particular things, whatever I see that may be...
Kinga (44:55.772)
the most beneficial for them and then seeing them and then I get sometimes you know messages or sometimes I see them again after months or next year they come back and and I see and they tell me that it was sometimes I really they say that it was life -changing that it's shifted perception of flying of relationships of that there's some really crazy stories that
on the way that again it can be only about flying and flying you know and going for some mission I want to come for free days I want to go volvivac like okay that's what we're gonna do but sometimes it really becomes this incredibly complex and satisfying journey to observe that they go through and just being able to guide them through it I also do a little bit of remote coaching with a couple of pilots so I actually haven't met them
I give them different tasks and we discuss different technical and mental and emotional aspects of flying via Zoom every week, but also with different tasks and different things to focus on, to train or to listen to. Of course, your podcasts are also usually on the list of homework and to see how it all comes together and how after this, you know,
after after after the ups and downs of the of my own paragliding journey from and rebuilding my confidence and actually building the whole set of skills how I can help and guide others through it that so that so adds to my flying and yes sometimes it means that I have a 30 -hour pilot on the record -breaking day and I would like to go deep and big and meanwhile we are just
of taking it slow and easy but at the same time I fly so much and I've been flying also for a few years that at some point you realize that that's really like a small price to pay for all that you get in return so definitely at this point it adds and doesn't bear me out it can be exhausting
Gavin McClurg (47:14.254)
Hmm.
Kinga (47:15.13)
wilder mountains when we go to... I do it in the European Alps, I do it in the New Zealand Southern Alps and I do it in Bir -Billing in the Himalayas. So depending also where we are and how deep we go of course sometimes and how complex the weather system is and especially when I just met
Gavin McClurg (47:23.858)
Hmm.
Kinga (47:38.782)
getting to know each other because I only know what we can truly do.
So it can be pretty stressful. I feel a big responsibility for making right decisions.
Kinga (47:57.406)
So yeah.
Gavin McClurg (47:57.678)
As always.
Kinga (48:03.486)
your passion for me just adding to it at this point.
Gavin McClurg (48:06.862)
I'm always fascinated by people's stories are often similar to yours, and especially in that intermediate syndrome. We all go through all these stages, the ignorant stage, the intermediate syndrome stage, the expert halo stage. We've talked about it a lot on the show. But your mistakes and your awakening are
I've heard that from obviously different ways. Not everybody lands in a tree and is okay, and not everybody does a full stall over the water and doesn't realize how daft they're being. But we've all done stupid stuff and we've all, hopefully, many people don't, but hopefully we can count on these cheap mistakes to advance our.
Kinga (48:33.278)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (48:55.766)
confidence and risk tolerance and all the things that go into participating in the sport outside of a body bag. You know, you have, we don't learn anything from success. We learn from failures. And so.
Kinga (49:05.294)
Absolutely, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (49:11.47)
But the penalty points for failure in the sport are so high that I'm not saying anything new here that people haven't heard on the show meantime. I just find it fascinating to, it would be, you must be in a fascinating position to be guiding people who potentially haven't had a cheap mistake yet. And you're trying to keep them from having mistakes, but it's hard to learn.
from success, it's hard to learn without going in the tree. It's hard to learn without landing in a full stall with a soaked glider. I had that happen in the last race going to Waugh Rine the first day. I was on, I'm a pretty...
I've done four X Alps. I've been at this a really long time. I was on a brand new glider and I was flying underneath the cell crossing the pins gal and you know everybody the lead gaggle was heading into Walker Heine and I needed to be on the ground to go live and I was going under a cell that was you know it looked like it could be a little nasty and but in my experience it was not that bad. It was you know it was pretty light rain and
I had just watched the video that Kriegel had put up just right before the X -Alps where he was purposefully flying in rain to go through various ways to get out of it. So I mean, that's kind of next level education, but he was showing the use of speed bar and how the glider spins earlier when it's wet and.
Kinga (50:29.094)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (50:46.976)
you know, going parachutal, how to get out of parachutal when it's soaked. And so I had just seen that when I was pretty low on the terrain and just turning and, uh, you know, it wasn't even, but it was, it was, it was the first day I'd flown that way. It was the, it was the climber three. Uh, and I'd only flown the climber two and was loving it. It was fantastic. And the glider went.
Kinga (50:55.07)
Mm.
Gavin McClurg (51:10.634)
parachute along me and it was, you know, I was low enough that I thought, I might have to throw my reserve here. That'd be pretty embarrassing, you know, as a journalist, the very first day and end up in the trees. And, uh, but I hammered speed bar, got out of it, started turning again because I was, I needed the thermal to get out of where I was and went parachutal again, you know, spun parachutal had to do it several times and, and ended up everything, everything was fine. But I later learned, I was really surprised with how.
Kinga (51:15.39)
Mm -hmm.
Gavin McClurg (51:40.622)
easily the wing went parachutal. And I later learned, I mean, this is 20 years into flying. I later learned that when wings are brand new, they're much more susceptible to going parachutal with a little bit of wet because the friction surface is different than after you've had a glider for even 10 hours. And so, I mean, this was something that I'd never heard, didn't know, and could have been.
a way different outcome. You know, that may not have been a cheap mistake because I was pretty low and the trees were not that thick. You know, so I may have spun it in and gone in, you know, between trees and really gotten hurt, you know. And so it's one of these just there's an infinite number of these possibilities in what we do where you hope for a cheap mistake, but maybe not. Anyway, I.
Kinga (52:13.15)
Hmm.
Kinga (52:20.43)
That's...
Kinga (52:29.526)
That's really interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting what you're saying because you know we like to say oh never fly in the rain but in part but it may happen in the mountains and to be honest it happened to me multiple times and actually when I was coming for a first not for a first rudder but it helps I was flying a different wing but when I was preparing for the second one and
Hannes Pappers from FI was making a Scala, the first Scala I was like, can you please make it fly in the rain? And he was like, well, that's pretty difficult to test. How do you want me to test it? But this being said, it's actually been flying through rain pretty well. And again, you don't want to push it too hard, but at the same time, so part of it for sure depends on the construction. That's really interesting you're saying that the gliders that are new, I never heard it, but also I never noticed it because I flew two different glides.
Gavin McClurg (53:06.702)
Wait.
Kinga (53:25.966)
brand new in the rain in 2019 and then in 2022 they were all new for X -Spear. The first four days were absolutely rubbish, we were basically wet all the time, we were hiking and we were wet all the time. Two weeks leading to X -Spear, we were amazing, 4 .7 cloud base, mind -blowing and then started raining and of course it was raining for first four days of the race.
Gavin McClurg (53:36.462)
Yeah, I saw that.
Kinga (53:48.862)
and I was basically wet all the time and I was pretty surprised that the two -liner can actually, lightweight two -liner can fly so well because it also depends we like to, we mostly fly the two -liners, lightweight gliders they also behave a little bit differently but I like to think that this B or C gliders that most of pilots fly can take a little bit more water and can keep our pilots safe even if you know even if they're
Gavin McClurg (54:11.758)
Yeah, I think from what I was told, it's the viscosity of the fabric when it's brand new, it's almost, you know, totally weather waterproof. And so the water will stand up on the fabric and basically just destroy the flow of the air. Exactly. Detach it from the wing surface. And so, yeah, it was, you know, I would not have even considered that I was in a dangerous position. It was not raining that hard.
Kinga (54:19.866)
Yeah Yeah Yeah, detach the stream of the air, yeah, yeah Mmm
Gavin McClurg (54:40.334)
I'd flown through much, much heavier rain and never had even a sampling of the problem. Now, I'd flown through heavier rain and been, I better be thinking about this and been on speed bar and doing all the things that you want to be doing. But this really caught me off guard. I don't bring that up for that specific. What I'm more curious in is how you have taken those.
Kinga (54:47.102)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (55:08.43)
those series of incidents that were kind of a smack in the face, like, hey, I gotta wake up if I'm gonna survive this. How you, it's just, it's an interesting thing to, I don't even know, you don't even need to answer it, but it's an interesting thing to then be guiding and try to navigate people through not making mistakes, but it's hard. It's hard to learn without making mistakes. It's impossible, really.
Kinga (55:16.126)
Yeah.
Kinga (55:33.47)
Absolutely. Absolutely. So basically what I truly believe in and this is how I guide. I give my pilots as much knowledge as they need for this particular day or trip or situation and try to build it with them. This is why it really helps if I have at least few days or if I have a clinic that goes for 12 days. We really add structure to it. So I...
give them as much understanding at the beginning about, for example, how to land safely in different ways, what to look for, depending what terrain we are at. For example, if we are in the southern Alps, we'll discuss really in depth the slope landings because this particular terrain has pretty deep valleys with strong winds, but slopes of the mountains are...
Free free, Tasax, forever, you can basically land anywhere on the slope. But you need to understand how to land on the slope. If you've never done it, we'll train for it and practice in this way. And then when we actually go out there, I want them to be as well equipped as possible for this eventuality. So they are not surprised. So I try to build a structure for this particular task so they can, you know, they can be as... because when...
comes to it when it comes for example to landing out or when they put themselves in some some situation that involves I top landing for example then if it's the first time they are doing it in a high stress environment it's not great yes I want them to be able to learn and get used to the concept and big part of it happens actually on the ground while talking about it and sometimes pilots tell me that oh this flight today literally yesterday my pilot told me oh this flight was nice but actually
Kinga (57:42.584)
gusts and things that that may be obvious after many many years of flying but the 50 -hour pilot very often they just have no no space and no opportunity to learn it so it's more about giving them as many tools and understanding what's what's awaiting and then a little bit of giving them space to do it and can you avoid any potential mistake from your pilot of course I have them on the radio etc I mean you can't
Gavin McClurg (58:04.876)
Yeah.
Kinga (58:11.906)
Yeah, technically they can always do something, you know, everyone can do something random, but excluding this really kind of moment that you don't think clearly or get overwhelmed with something, then that I really believe that the more we understand the environment and the more we can visualize what can potentially happen. So, for example, back...
Gavin McClurg (58:39.118)
Hmm, yeah, yeah. Oh, no. Yes, and you know what we have? I would love to keep talking about this, but as you know, I've got a hard out in nine minutes and we have not talked about your hike and fly race. So let's let's totally switch gears and leave that for another time. But tell me about this race because it sounds awesome. You've been I think you're this was the fourth year. Is that right?
Kinga (58:42.21)
Okay, okay, because I can talk about it forever, but I...
Kinga (58:53.862)
Okay Yes, it's the fourth year this year, our fourth edition Wanaka hike and fly, what we call fun event, hike, fly, socialize It's a hike and fly event that I organize here in New Zealand in Wanaka and the Southern Alps in Otago
So the concept is that we have a list of turnpoints. There's a map of turnpoints and the easy turnpoints.
start and finish line, I wish one point, then two points, three, four points for FAR and trick your technical term points. And of course the concept is that you gather as many term points as you can or as you are bold enough to go for, because some mean that if you go, you know, it's New Zealand, so some mean that if you go to the end and land, you will never not only make it to the goal, which is 10 point penalty if you don't make it
before the cut of time but also it can mean a really long walk out and quite an adventure itself. So it is because it's a little bit different environment than let's say European Alps when the X -Alps happens so it's not one route but it also means that we can have and usually we have very well seasoned pilots
bold and self -sufficient who happily go in Volbivac mode out there and go for this four point turn points and we have pilots who are you know 20 -50 hour pilots who just want to go for the first night out or want to go for the first kind of cross country with this safety net and we do extensive safety and extensive weather briefing.
Kinga (01:00:53.276)
We have daily weather briefings, like a lot of support for pilots who are either new to the area or new as pilots. So my whole concept behind it was to of course to challenge the public, because to win the whole event you have to go pretty deep and you have to fly really well. And usually the podium is taken by you know by pilots who went for some really really cool things and sometimes I was like wow they really they really went for it with the weather forecast that was maybe not so great but that's...
And so it kind of shows you again what I love about races in general that they show you what is possible within a day when you're not thinking so much about, oh, I want to go back for dinner. I don't want to work out. But you're like, OK, I'm going there for this standpoint. It shows you that what's possible. But also we have these pilots. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:01:36.878)
You're set waypoints. Are they fixed? You know, people can look at them weeks in advance. Are they fixed no matter what the forecast is? So when you have a start and an end, and regardless of the forecast, people can go for whatever they want.
Kinga (01:01:45.567)
Yes. So we've... Yes.
Yes, so we have a start and the end and the start is mandatory and usually the first takeoff is like naturally everybody go to the same mountain even different places higher lower right left because this is the closest takeoff to the start line. Finnish is also there always the same in Wanaka in the center of Wanaka but and turn points we change them so I change them every year a little bit to make it more interesting.
Kinga (01:02:25.178)
so it's not always the same but they are published a few weeks in advance so pilots have time to get used to it.
Kinga (01:02:53.021)
about going this way and then the wind is changing so may want to be on this side of the of the range or something like this so we try to kind of support it as much as possible especially for lower airtime pilots but of course the higher airtime pilots have their own concepts so they don't need to
Gavin McClurg (01:03:11.182)
And you've got two days to finish it. You spend one night out, three days, okay.
Kinga (01:03:14.909)
So there are three days, two nights out and to make it, because you know that my heart is, as we already said, my heart is more in the bivouac and adventure part of racing than actual racing. So there are bonuses for, we have two night turn points, which is like a social part because if you get there, you get five point bonus if you spend the night there, which normally attracts pilots, especially lower airtime pilots, because if you go somewhere deep and spend the night out somewhere...
away then it may be still worth for you not to come for these five points but for especially lower airtime pilots and in general for everybody it may be worth to go for these five points so you have 10 pilots in a camping spot you know sharing the adventures of the day coming from different places some might have just did a little sleddy and hike up and then another sleddy and hike up and then term a little bit and get to the turn point some might have flown you know 150 kilometer on the day and get to this turn point so there's a lot of
a lot of sharing and the social part of it and there are also bonuses for spending a night out away somewhere just in the tent so it's one point for beaving in your tent somewhere and two points if you're beaving with another athlete so we are trying to kind of you know make people socialize a little bit and find racing race buddies and again it's really fun for pilots who are lower airtime pilots that this one extra point will be of course worth it.
Gavin McClurg (01:04:32.622)
Really fun. It's a nice concept.
Kinga (01:04:40.218)
And again, if you are going for some really big turn points and big flights, you may be focusing on something else. So this is like, you know, the way of making it as much fun and as accommodating. So still you have to fly and hike like a beast to actually win the thing. But we also want to have as much fun for pilots at different levels. And the weather...
Gavin McClurg (01:05:00.014)
So there's no, between the different levels, there's no, it's, everybody's together in this race. There's no divisions. There's no pro and, okay.
Kinga (01:05:06.168)
Everybody is together, but no, we don't do divisions. It's a small race. We have 30, 40 pilots participating, but we have a lot of cool spot prizes. So it's not only podium, but also we have the best adventure of the year, which is always very cool prizes, which is usually a pilot who went somewhere. This year it was a pilot who just flew really bold and really deep and then bumped out and spent the next...
Gavin McClurg (01:05:16.588)
Hmm.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:22.198)
Yeah, cool.
Kinga (01:05:32.058)
whole day trying to walk out. Never made it to go, but went through some absolutely mind -blowing terrain and was so like, oh my God, this is what, where is the trails? Like, well, welcome to New Zealand. It's a Czech pilot. Very, very, very brave, very brave, went really bold and really deep. We have a mud hiker award that also usually goes to a pilot who hiked the most, so probably maybe didn't fly so well during the event.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:45.388)
Whoa.
Kinga (01:06:00.609)
but had the grit and stamina, so mudhiker award sponsored by the local outdoor store and stuff like this. So we tried to make it as fun and plenty of spot prizes sponsored by local companies and businesses. So we tried to like, so there's no categories per se, but a lot of...
Gavin McClurg (01:06:03.68)
Yeah, put in the effort.
Kinga (01:06:21.242)
celebration of going out there and going for adventure and creating memories. So we really try to give both point bonuses for this nights out and spending nights together with other pilots and socializing in this beautiful environment and sharing the knowledge and emotions but also celebrate this personal newcomer of the year, best flight, hiker of the year, etc.
trying to celebrate the flying in different ways. So it's been really fun so I would strongly encourage to come. We would like to see what for example you would be able to do with the free days in the Southern Alps and the weather has been progressively better and better and better every year so we are really, really, we always have some apparently, apparently.
Gavin McClurg (01:06:49.166)
Very cool. Very cool. Well.
Gavin McClurg (01:06:56.78)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:02.574)
It sounds amazing.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:07.444)
Climate change is helping New Zealand, I guess. Yeah. So, well, I'd love to. It sounds amazing. It's a very cool concept. It's neat to see all these pop up all over the world. And I'll put all the information for not only your guiding and your company, but the hike and fly stuff and the show notes. But Kinga, thank you very much. It's great to catch up. It's great to see you again. And good luck with your race and your adventuring.
Kinga (01:07:27.993)
Thank you Gavin. Absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Cheers.
